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Chief of Army Staff | General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani.

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Caption:
General John Craddock (left) greets Pakistan’s Chief of Defence, General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani, upon General Kayani’s arrival at Supreme Headquarters Allied Powers Europe / Allied Command Operations Headquarters near Mons, Belgium, on Tuesday, May 19, 2009.
 
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090519a-002.jpg

Caption:
Pakistan’s Chief of Defence, General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani is honoured by U.S. Army General John Craddock, Supreme Allied Commander Europe at a formal welcome ceremony at Supreme Headquarters Allied Powers Europe / Allied Command Operations Headquarters near Mons, Belgium, on Tuesday, May 19, 2009.
 
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I don't get why our Army Chief and Joint Chief wears AF style cap on international visits instead of the Royal army's traditional cap for SD? Do they want to show similarity with other countries uniform.?

You deserve a Noble Prize for such a prediction!
 
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You deserve a Noble Prize for such a prediction!

LoL, take it as wrong construction of sentence....unfortunately the traditions of Royal army are wiping out from PA....the batman culture is one example.

In old days, when a Maj was to be promoted to Lt Col, he has to first prove his capabilities in field....his unit's demo exercise was conducted, it was witnessed by senior officers (a Col and Brig)...if he performs well, he gets an edge on others during promotion. Since passage of time, promotion boards became much appreciated method by Pak army.

In uniform, we all know the changes being made in past 5/7 years.....the new one is good for a green terrain, but in desert the old one was more appropriate.

IMO old traditions shows the shades of past and present...wiping them out will not be a good decision!
 
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Rawalpindi - June 3, 2011:
Chief of Army Staff (COAS), General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani conferred military awards to the Army personnel in an investiture ceremony held at General Headquarters today. A large number of senior military officials and relatives of awardees attended the ceremony.
26 officers were awarded HILAL-E-IMTIAZ (MILITARY), 102 officers were awarded SITARA-E-IMTIAZ (MILITARY), 1 officer was awarded TAMGHA-E-IMTIAZ (CIVIL), 1 officer and 13 soldiers were awarded United Nations (UN) Medal. Medals of Shuhada were received by their family members
 
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LoL, take it as wrong construction of sentence....unfortunately the traditions of Royal army are wiping out from PA....the batman culture is one example.
Isnt it guud to change?

In old days, when a Maj was to be promoted to Lt Col, he has to first prove his capabilities in field....his unit's demo exercise was conducted, it was witnessed by senior officers (a Col and Brig)...if he performs well, he gets an edge on others during promotion. Since passage of time, promotion boards became much appreciated method by Pak army.
Things have moved up.

i dont say what happened in the past was incorrect or what we do today is more efficient but then procedures change with time. People still say that back in those days kids used to start writing on takhtis with slates, and because of this their hand writing used to be beautiful, but now as the tradition has died, even i the poorest corners of the country, we really cant blame the missing takhti and slate for our bad hand writing, can we?

In short, when 'demo exercise' method was the talk of the day, our military had only two things to do back then; 'Training and Administration', today it's a different world, militarymen train (from everything ranging from conventional to unconventional warfare), they are also expected to be more learned (being awarded BS degree instaed of Bsc/BA degrees), and then they also have to keep pace with today's tech. Seriously, you cant judge computer efficiency in the field. All the IT, net centric, OAS, digital identification methods, linking of every HQ and unit through WAN/LAN are some issues at hand. Still, the military conducts the same amount (rather more time) in the field, winter/summer collective exercises, ITCs, training cadres etc. Firing/testing of weapons today is as simple a routine today as eating your lunch at Langer (the correct name is Soldier's Mess). The difference now is, that previously these training events and 'demo exercise' took place as part of an elaborate plan (oh..major saab nay promote hona hai, let's just hand him over a Charlie Cmpany and tell him to deploy it any where in Pakistan and then we'll go test/check him - bahut khola POL the us time pe janab, ab aik aik liter ko trastay hain hum), but now most of the 'demo exercies' are shifted to ON JOB TRAINING. You fight for a year in Swat and came back alive with laurels at your back, seriously i dont think there now is a need to test the dude with a 'demo exercise', again.

GOCs and Comds dont see an Officer's course result now a days, thay know anybody can mug up and attain guud grades, but with added sense of competition, more aware fauj and lesser slots, the promotion has gone tougher.

Sir Fat, i hope you know the result of SB-3 this year?

Lt are given tasks which a senior Capt would do back in those golden 'demo exercise' days, and Capts are given the task that Majors and Lt Col would have done. Seriously, when was the last time a convoy consisting 50 vehicle s was sent in a war zone under the command of a newly promoted Captain? Sir Fat, i'll your comments on this. Also with an improved officer lot, the high ups demand more, ruthlessly more. i remember Officers and Men used to refrain from carrying personal weapons, today they like to keep two with them, sir Fat should i now narrate here how the protection NCO sitting behind the back of a 2.5 ton truck used to keep his ammo (the handkerchief thingy...:lol:)? i wont, because it would speak bad of the Army. Things have changed radically today.

Sir Fat, how would you feel if i tell you that all major exams (including the most prestigious one - Sir Fat can guess it :)) are conducted ONLINE now? The entire Army has almost gone Paper Free now? i send and receive Faxes on my personal laptop these days - i dont call a clerk from his bed just to turn on that fringging fax machine laying under silk and roses in A Office? i no more ask my juniors to get the weapon clear from the soldiers because i know they have already done it and made sure that weapons are not loaded when not required. i dont run a class in the evening at the field mess for Laftains to teach them about artillery shoots that he would be conducting the next day, when we go for Field Firing, why? Because i know the dude is more concerned than me about his performance and has already prepared well for the task at his own end. i know this because he woke me up for may be like 7 times to ask certain queries and doubts regarding the technicality of a Shoot.

Also, in order to stop this ar,y going all hi tech with no traditions and history, we still do have mess nights (though on a lesser scale - you know austerity measures), we still fine you with a saboota chicken when you commit a spelling mistake, we still give the Lt EDs when he misses his duty timings, juniors still call on seniors at home etc etc. Though internet, laptops and TV has reduced the 'Messers', but we do keep an eye on the bear minimum.

In uniform, we all know the changes being made in past 5/7 years.....the new one is good for a green terrain, but in desert the old one was more appropriate.
The current uniform again has been changed. Bad new? :lol:

IMO old traditions shows the shades of past and present...wiping them out will not be a good decision!
My duty officer still wears the Royal SD cap and carries a stick. See, we havent wiped out everything.
 
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Isnt it guud to change?


Things have moved up.

i dont say what happened in the past was incorrect or what we do today is more efficient but then procedures change with time. People still say that back in those days kids used to start writing on takhtis with slates, and because of this their hand writing used to be beautiful, but now as the tradition has died, even i the poorest corners of the country, we really cant blame the missing takhti and slate for our bad hand writing, can we?

In short, when 'demo exercise' method was the talk of the day, our military had only two things to do back then; 'Training and Administration', today it's a different world, militarymen train (from everything ranging from conventional to unconventional warfare), they are also expected to be more learned (being awarded BS degree instaed of Bsc/BA degrees), and then they also have to keep pace with today's tech. Seriously, you cant judge computer efficiency in the field. All the IT, net centric, OAS, digital identification methods, linking of every HQ and unit through WAN/LAN are some issues at hand. Still, the military conducts the same amount (rather more time) in the field, winter/summer collective exercises, ITCs, training cadres etc. Firing/testing of weapons today is as simple a routine today as eating your lunch at Langer (the correct name is Soldier's Mess). The difference now is, that previously these training events and 'demo exercise' took place as part of an elaborate plan (oh..major saab nay promote hona hai, let's just hand him over a Charlie Cmpany and tell him to deploy it any where in Pakistan and then we'll go test/check him - bahut khola POL the us time pe janab, ab aik aik liter ko trastay hain hum), but now most of the 'demo exercies' are shifted to ON JOB TRAINING. You fight for a year in Swat and came back alive with laurels at your back, seriously i dont think there now is a need to test the dude with a 'demo exercise', again.

GOCs and Comds dont see an Officer's course result now a days, thay know anybody can mug up and attain guud grades, but with added sense of competition, more aware fauj and lesser slots, the promotion has gone tougher.

Sir Fat, i hope you know the result of SB-3 this year?

Lt are given tasks which a senior Capt would do back in those golden 'demo exercise' days, and Capts are given the task that Majors and Lt Col would have done. Seriously, when was the last time a convoy consisting 50 vehicle s was sent in a war zone under the command of a newly promoted Captain? Sir Fat, i'll your comments on this. Also with an improved officer lot, the high ups demand more, ruthlessly more. i remember Officers and Men used to refrain from carrying personal weapons, today they like to keep two with them, sir Fat should i now narrate here how the protection NCO sitting behind the back of a 2.5 ton truck used to keep his ammo (the handkerchief thingy...:lol:)? i wont, because it would speak bad of the Army. Things have changed radically today.

Sir Fat, how would you feel if i tell you that all major exams (including the most prestigious one - Sir Fat can guess it :)) are conducted ONLINE now? The entire Army has almost gone Paper Free now? i send and receive Faxes on my personal laptop these days - i dont call a clerk from his bed just to turn on that fringging fax machine laying under silk and roses in A Office? i no more ask my juniors to get the weapon clear from the soldiers because i know they have already done it and made sure that weapons are not loaded when not required. i dont run a class in the evening at the field mess for Laftains to teach them about artillery shoots that he would be conducting the next day, when we go for Field Firing, why? Because i know the dude is more concerned than me about his performance and has already prepared well for the task at his own end. i know this because he woke me up for may be like 7 times to ask certain queries and doubts regarding the technicality of a Shoot.

Also, in order to stop this ar,y going all hi tech with no traditions and history, we still do have mess nights (though on a lesser scale - you know austerity measures), we still fine you with a saboota chicken when you commit a spelling mistake, we still give the Lt EDs when he misses his duty timings, juniors still call on seniors at home etc etc. Though internet, laptops and TV has reduced the 'Messers', but we do keep an eye on the bear minimum.


The current uniform again has been changed. Bad new? :lol:


My duty officer still wears the Royal SD cap and carries a stick. See, we havent wiped out everything.

i dont disagree - i think what was meant by the poster is very simple - the units which became part of PA at the time of independence have a rich history of battle and culture. we shd not 'wipe' that out. i'm kinda glad the batman system is over with (or is it) but the past should not be forgotten.

today's officers have more Military Education and Training opportunities then in the past.
 
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i dont disagree - i think what was meant by the poster is very simple - the units which became part of PA at the time of independence have a rich history of battle and culture. we shd not 'wipe' that out. i'm kinda glad the batman system is over with (or is it) but the past should not be forgotten.

today's officers have more Military Education and Training opportunities then in the past.

Sir ji waisay very frankly, i have never been that proud of 'our' gora type history. i mean, not to disrespect them and notwithstanding the grooming that ensued, but it's kinda remind us of our slavery.
 
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COAS addressed the students and faculty of the College on "Strategic Stability issues in the region; Challenges and Way Forward".
It's now 4th Jun 2011. Has he finally found a 'way forward' or is he still groping in the dark? Things seem to have gotten worse! :)
 
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It's now 4th Jun 2011. Has he finally found a 'way forward' or is he still groping in the dark? Things seem to have gotten worse! :)

He has "moved forward" very well. The Indian Cold Start strategy has been effectively nullified thanks to Nasr in particular and the rapid growth of the Pakistan nuclear arsenal thanks mostly to American financing since 9/11. There will be no major move against Afghan Taliban or the Haqqani group. They and Karzai will come to an understanding. The yanks will move out of Afghanistan soon. The minor Pakistani militant groups supported indirectly by the Afghan (northern alliance folks) and Indian intelligence will be taken care of in due course of time. Afghanistan will come back under influence of Pakistan and China. India and the West will end up with the cost of billions of dollars and nothing to show for it. In the meantime, the cost we pay for this outcome is acceptable so don't get carried away.
 
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The Indian Cold Start strategy has been effectively nullified thanks to Nasr in particular.
Incorrect! Your Nasr or whatever you call it will not change the Cold Start doctrine. The tactical nuke you mention if ever used against Indian Forces will be met by massive Indian retaliation not just on the battlefield but nuking all your cities of which there are not many (9 to be precise). 9 Hiroshimas within the hour! Won’t look good at all!

So don’t even think of this scenario. Escalation to nuclear war is a bad idea. And I’m sure the powers that be in Pakistan fully understand the implications of using this tactical nuke against mobile combat groups penetrating deep inside Pakistan. In other words it’s both a dangerous and stupid idea to be the first to use ANY nuke even in a limited war. And remember, you'll be using your tactical nukes within YOUR OWN territory!

Afghanistan will come back under influence of Pakistan and China. India and the West will end up with the cost of billions of dollars and nothing to show for it. In the meantime, the cost we pay for this outcome is acceptable so don't get carried away.

Unfortunately it looks like you do not understand the geopolitics of the region as can be seen by your simplistic assessment. Firstly, the US of A isn’t just going to desert Afghanistan completely. There would be stationed at least 40,000 American troops for years. Any attempt by Pakistan to install the Taliban there will come a cropper. They would never allow anything that will go against their national security interests.

Secondly, the confusion is going to be confounded by the influence of the CIS Republics, Shia Iran, China, and the ‘Northern Alliance’ supported by India, Russia and Iran and the many local tribes including Tajiks, Pashtuns, Hazaras, Uzbeks, Turkmen and others. Pakistan would be a bit player trying to prop up a pliable Taliban regime so that it achieves its doctrine of ‘Strategic Depth’ against India.

And then what would happen to Pakistan's economy without those billions of dollars that the US of A is dishing out on a platter? There'll be no more free lunches from 2014 onwards! By which time Pakistani Forces would in all likelihood be still fighting a counter insurgency war with the TTP, further putting pressure on the economy. So it's not going to be party time once the ISAF withdraws from Afghanistan!

Now do you see the big game in Afghanistan? It's not just about Pakistan and the Taliban! :azn:
 
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Good post Xeric,sorry i am the kind of person who likes to see things in old look...it really kills me to see so much changes made in the cantt area of my city has in past few years...its more or less a new city, the old 'tooti phooti' roads and shortcuts, less security but peaceful roads still fascinate me....sometime i wish i had captured all that past from camera...same are my views about army traditions.

Its not about accepting the 'Goora' traditions, its about keeping history alive...at least in some shape...i want to write alot but that would make this post too personal.

Have a good day! :cheers:
 
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Incorrect! Your Nasr or whatever you call it will not change the Cold Start doctrine. The tactical nuke you mention if ever used against Indian Forces will be met by massive Indian retaliation not just on the battlefield but nuking all your cities of which there are not many (9 to be precise). 9 Hiroshimas within the hour! Won’t look good at all!

So don’t even think of this scenario. Escalation to nuclear war is a bad idea. And I’m sure the powers that be in Pakistan fully understand the implications of using this tactical nuke against mobile combat groups penetrating deep inside Pakistan. In other words it’s both a dangerous and stupid idea to be the first to use ANY nuke even in a limited war. And remember, you'll be using your tactical nukes within YOUR OWN territory!



Unfortunately it looks like you do not understand the geopolitics of the region as can be seen by your simplistic assessment. Firstly, the US of A isn’t just going to desert Afghanistan completely. There would be stationed at least 40,000 American troops for years. Any attempt by Pakistan to install the Taliban there will come a cropper. They would never allow anything that will go against their national security interests.

Secondly, the confusion is going to be confounded by the influence of the CIS Republics, Shia Iran, China, and the ‘Northern Alliance’ supported by India, Russia and Iran and the many local tribes including Tajiks, Pashtuns, Hazaras, Uzbeks, Turkmen and others. Pakistan would be a bit player trying to prop up a pliable Taliban regime so that it achieves its doctrine of ‘Strategic Depth’ against India.

And then what would happen to Pakistan's economy without those billions of dollars that the US of A is dishing out on a platter? There'll be no more free lunches from 2014 onwards! By which time Pakistani Forces would in all likelihood be still fighting a counter insurgency war with the TTP, further putting pressure on the economy. So it's not going to be party time once the ISAF withdraws from Afghanistan!

Now do you see the big game in Afghanistan? It's not just about Pakistan and the Taliban! :azn:

He has "moved forward" very well. The Indian Cold Start strategy has been effectively nullified thanks to Nasr in particular and the rapid growth of the Pakistan nuclear arsenal thanks mostly to American financing since 9/11. There will be no major move against Afghan Taliban or the Haqqani group. They and Karzai will come to an understanding. The yanks will move out of Afghanistan soon. The minor Pakistani militant groups supported indirectly by the Afghan (northern alliance folks) and Indian intelligence will be taken care of in due course of time. Afghanistan will come back under influence of Pakistan and China. India and the West will end up with the cost of billions of dollars and nothing to show for it. In the meantime, the cost we pay for this outcome is acceptable so don't get carried away.

This has been discussed to death here:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/land-forces/105377-indias-cold-start-too-hot-16.html

Move your discussion regarding Nasr and stuff there, dont ruin this thread.
 
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Good post Xeric,sorry i am the kind of person who likes to see things in old look...it really kills me to see so much changes made in the cantt area of my city has in past few years...its more or less a new city, the old 'tooti phooti' roads and shortcuts, less security but peaceful roads still fascinate me....sometime i wish i had captured all that past from camera...same are my views about army traditions.

Its not about accepting the 'Goora' traditions, its about keeping history alive...at least in some shape...i want to write alot but that would make this post too personal.

Have a good day! :cheers:

Yeah. Guud were the days when one would starch his Khahki uniform and sit like a baboo. A CO would be just be felt and not seen. And the 2I/Cs were at war with the Lts. The Adjts would bully you as if you were still a GC. Catering Member would always be in a thick shyt as the mess menu would be hard to maintain. i do miss the guud old days when one would ride his bicycle and check the guards. One would have loonngg chats with NCOs and Jawans and you would even know when was the last time he took bath.

Guud days!
 
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