Chengdu J-20 5th Generation Aircraft News & Discussions

[Deino]

Every time I read this post, I receive a deeper understanding of the following quote,

„Zwei Dinge sind unendlich, das Universum und die menschliche Dummheit, aber bei dem Universum bin ich mir noch nicht ganz sicher.“

Good one ! ... and honestly since I truly respect You as an authority in Chinese military matters. Maybe You could explain - aka help to loose my stupidity !? - the issues I mention, the questions or the concerns I raise. Or do You think it's plain stupid to dare a bet of this kind with fan-boys?

Deino

 

[星海军事]

In 5, or maybe 6 years, you will see J-20 flying with real FWS-15. All doubts will cease to exist. Wait and see.

 

[Deino]

In 5, or maybe 6 years, you will see J-20 flying with real FWS-15. All doubts will cease to exist. Wait and see.

Thanks a lot even if I know my impatience will kill me until then. Anyway I was never questioning this FACT.

But can You explain or even name the current type of engine or at least on what type it is based, since it would probably settle this issue for a longer time; at least from my side.

Since all I deny is that the WS-15 is ready since day one, that it can deliver about 24t of thrust and so on.

In consequence, claims like these are IMO the best proof for the following quote made by Albert Einstein for those who don't know:

„Zwei Dinge sind unendlich, das Universum und die menschliche Dummheit, aber bei dem Universum bin ich mir noch nicht ganz sicher.“

 

[Beast]

In 5, or maybe 6 years, you will see J-20 flying with real FWS-15. All doubts will cease to exist. Wait and see.

Really? If J-20 flies with WS-15 in end of this year or next year. What are you going to do? I think you better stop posting here. None of your prediction is true and your mission here only misleading others.

 

[Deino]

Really? If J-20 flies with WS-15 in end of this year or next year. What are you going to do? I think you better stop posting here. None of your prediction is true and your mission here only misleading others.

... says the big prophet with a reliability rate of about 0.000134 %

Just to remind: How many of Your predictions went wrong so far? Y-20 operational with WS-18 and taking part on international exercises in Russia in 2016? J-10B is not in PLAAF use and will never be?? ... PLAAF already used more than 100 JL-10 (in September 2016)?? Your claim I never wrote an article for a Chinese magazine???

I would love to see You making this promise to stop posting here if any of Your claims went wrong.



But anyway, back to the topic: Any recent news on the topic's type ?? The most recent LRIP J-20 we've seen was no. 78275 in March, even if I don't know if this is a new shot of the same bird.

 

[Beast]

... says the big prophet with a reliability rate of about 0.000134 %

Just to remind: How many of Your predictions went wrong so far? Y-20 operational with WS-18 and taking part on international exercises in Russia in 2016? J-10B is not in PLAAF use and will never be?? ... PLAAF already used more than 100 JL-10 (in September 2016)?? Your claim I never wrote an article for a Chinese magazine???

I would love to see You making this promise to stop posting here if any of Your claims went wrong.



But anyway, back to the topic: Any recent news on the topic's type ?? The most recent LRIP J-20 we've seen was no. 78275 in March, even if I don't know if this is a new shot of the same bird.

View attachment 399934

Deino, talking about prediction? What a joke.

You claimed J-10b flies with Ruskie imported AL-31F engines when operation which has not proven by any facts , it just happen the engine petal looks like AL-31F and if a few look can prove its the same thing. Then a woman and man are the same, just they happen to have eyes and ears? The new J-10B in fact is actually C version which I predict correctly it will not go operation with a crapped underpowered imported Ruskie engine. All the while I maintain, new J-10C will go operation with domestic build engines.

You claim J-20 including many prototypes flies with Ruskie imported engine from Salyut with bragging of easily increase its thrust the same level of 117S which is nothing but just your delusion. You can claim LRIP of J-20 will still fly with Ruskies imported engines which is totally proven wrong by new documentary and Yin Zhuo relevation. And yet you still have the cheek to turnaround and accuse of others? I know what you will do, you will abuse your level and just ban me to save yourself of more relevation of your fail view, fail prediction and low opinion of Chinese technology.

You want to flip back your past quote to prove my points? You are nothing but despicable.

I am the first person in J-20 thread to talk about domestic AL-31/WS-10 hybrid concept. Which you failed in your prediction of J-20 prototypes and LRIP still using Russian imported AL-31F engines and then you start to lie by switching your tone and borrow my concept of AL-31/WS-10 lines to save yourself from further humilitation.

 

[grey boy 2]

Deino, talking about prediction? What a joke.

You claimed J-10b flies with Ruskie imported AL-31F engines when operation which has not proven by any facts , it just happen the engine petal looks like AL-31F and if a few look can prove its the same thing. Then a woman and man are the same, just they happen to have eyes and ears? The new J-10B in fact is actually C version which I predict correctly it will not go operation with a crapped underpowered imported Ruskie engine. All the while I maintain, new J-10C will go operation with domestic build engines.

You claim J-20 including many prototypes flies with Ruskie imported engine from Salyut with bragging of easily increase its thrust the same level of 117S which is nothing but just your delusion. You can claim LRIP of J-20 will still fly with Ruskies imported engines which is totally proven wrong by new documentary and Yin Zhuo relevation. And yet you still have the cheek to turnaround and accuse of others? I know what you will do, you will abuse your level and just ban me to save yourself of more relevation of your fail view, fail prediction and low opinion of Chinese technology.

You want to flip back your past quote to prove my points? You are nothing but despicable.

I am the first person in J-20 thread to talk about domestic AL-31/WS-10 hybrid concept. Which you failed in your prediction of J-20 prototypes and LRIP still using Russian imported AL-31F engines and then you start to lie by switching your tone and borrow my concept of AL-31/WS-10 lines to save yourself from further humilitation.

Because thats whats he's been told in sinodefense "J-20" thread by the super moderator there, he listen and no question ask, however when you first mentioned about this so-called hybrid engine possibility, he laugh at you and threatening you to stop spreading nonsense
Guys, just leave him regarding his resignation promise/bet, he could simply denial it with some twisted wording game, its all well since we all witnessed what he's made of
BTW, we as Chinese military sites regulars, the reputation of his "Chinese supporter" as what deino praised as well respected Chinese military specialist is untrue and laughable at best

 

[j20blackdragon]

I said it before and I'll say it again...the size of a fixed intake is directly related to the airflow requirements of a specific engine. Different engines will have different airflow requirements, and different intake sizes.

There is no such thing as 'one size fits all' when it comes to a fixed intake.

CAC has 20+ years of experience designing the J-10 and the aircraft designers know the airflow requirements of the AL-31FN.

CAC also knows the airflow requirements of the AL-31FN Series 3 along with a fixed DSI intake.

The J-20 intakes (also fixed DSI) are noticeably larger than all previous planes designed by CAC.

For the sake of argument, let's assume the WS-15 isn't ready at the moment. Why would CAC purposely design oversized intakes for a plane that will initially enter service with AL-31? Oversized intakes add weight and drag to an already gargantuan J-20 airframe. Why would the CAC engineers design such a stupid plane? Why would the PLAAF accept such a plane?

If the WS-15 shows up later, CAC has the option of redesigning a new intake for the new engine.

The F-16 (fixed intake) is the best example. When the General Electric F110 was adopted, the intake was redesigned and enlarged to accommodate the increased airflow requirements of the new engine. The F-16 currently has two different intakes!

I'm aware that the F-14A's TF30 engine was replaced with the F110 engine with no apparent intake redesign. But that is because the F-14 has a variable geometry intake with moving ramps that can control the speed and volume of airflow reaching the engine.

The J-20 has a fixed DSI intake and the DSI bump doesn't move. I assume there are no internal ramps hidden behind the DSI bump. The J-20 has no mechanical means to control the volume of airflow reaching the engine. Therefore, the size of the J-20 intakes must be the correct size from the very beginning.

This is perfectly normal because both the F-22 and F-35 have fixed intakes too. There is a reason why all stealth fighters have fixed intakes.

 

[Asoka]

It is not difficult and indeed the WS-10B "shall" fit, but from all info and details I know it is not a WS-10-derivate. At least the WS-10B shown at the most recent Zhuhai AirShow was very much different (esp. the nozzle). So let me ask in return: is it so difficult to admit, that the J-20's nozzle is very much different to this alleged WS-10B !

View attachment 399929 View attachment 399930
also via http://www.scmp.com/news/china/dipl...ina-air-show-shows-latest-fighter-jet-engines




Any proof for that ?? It is so lousily build. I cannot believe that the PLAAF would show such a model. Even more even if it is a true model, the current pedals on any demonstrator, prototype and LRIP J-20 is completely different. So even if such a nozzle exists and was already tested, it is by far not operational yet.

Deino

"I also always said and I'm still sure that in the current LRIP-birds it is a modernised, uprated - and maybe even indigenous, china-manufactured - version of this engine IMO based on the M2." --Mr. Deino


Now, that you have been proved completely wrong by CCTV-4 and that your speculation of J-20 using AL-31FN-M2 is completely groundless, and now that you are distancing yourself (but still won't admit defeat) from this ridiculous claim by saying "maybe even indigenous, china-manufactured ", you have said something that is obviously true regarding J-20 is not using WS-10b.

Anyone who just take a good look at the picture of WS-10b, would be able to conclude J-20's engine is completely different.

I didn't bother to refute such obvious fallacy for wasting my time.

I have to say Mr. Deino is right this time.

Mr. Deino: "At least the WS-10B shown at the most recent Zhuhai AirShow was very much different (esp. the nozzle). So let me ask in return: is it so difficult to admit, that the J-20's nozzle is very much different to this alleged WS-10B !"

I don't blame a lot of people, like Mr.Deino, for mistaken J-20's engines for AL-31-FN, because their exhaust petals, does bear striking similarity, and we have not seen a complete picture of J-20's whole engine for comparison, yet.

But for people who claim J-20's engines is WS-10b, it is just to childish or infantile, for me to bother, to reply.

 

[Tiqiu]

BTW, we as Chinese military sites regulars, the reputation of his "Chinese supporter" as what deino praised as well respected Chinese military specialist is untrue and laughable at best

The very same exact feeling from me.

So let me ask in return: is it so difficult to admit, that the J-20's nozzle is very much different to this alleged WS-10B !

I believe This is FWS-15( or to be precise, the 18 tons thrust of FWS-15), not the alleged FWS-10B.

you will see J-20 flying with real FWS-15

I agree with you on this account, that the real FWS-15, of 18 tons thrust, with the configurations of 2-5-1-1 is not used to the first batch of J-20. But I don't think we need to wait that long to see it as per your prediction. Next year is the latest is my judgement based on all relevant information made publicly.

But for people who claim J-20's engines is WS-10b, it is just to childish or infantile, for me to bother, to reply.

Sorry Asok, I have to differ with you on this one.
Based on what i read, I believe initially the J-20 is powered by this so-alleged FWS-10B, of 15.5 tons trust. Some people called it "FWS-15 interim version", some called it "status A". According to those in the know, this FWS-10B is the original design of FWS-15 with 3-6-1-1 configurations to power the J-20 and J-10C. The FWS-15 of 18 tons thrust we know of now is the result of adopting the new breakthrough in "the magnitude blade technology of the aviation engine compressor" -"大小叶片压气机" to the original 3-6-1-1 core design, reducing one stage of low-pressure and one stage of high-pressure compressor to become 2-5-1-1.The 24 tons version people started talking about recently maybe the ultimate goal for FWS-15 when the numbers of LP and HP compressor stages are further reduced, or maybe even reduced to single stage.

This is the news in 2013 about how this technology was first used on Chinese WZ-6 engine:
陈懋章院士长期从事叶轮机气动力学和粘性流体动力学研究的教学与研究工作，在航空发动机领域卓有建树。在他指导并参加的某型发动机跨音压气机改型设计中，敢于闯入科学研究的“禁区”，提出了一种新型压气机处理机匣，保证了发动机在整个飞行包线内稳定可靠工作，排除了空中熄火故障。它为解决高负荷高通流压气机获得高效率、高喘振裕度的难题，提供了实用而有效的方法，对促进我国发动机设计研制具有重要意义和实用价值。该项研究成果1999年获国家技术发明二等奖。作为项目负责人之一，他主持完成的“低速大尺寸压气机实验装置及转子流场动态测量技术”，是研制航空核心压气机和研究其流场精细结构的重要设备，技术含量很高，对提高我国压气机设计水平有重要作用。该项成果1993年获国家科技进步一等奖。另外，陈懋章院士在叶轮机三维流理论与应用以及粘流理论研究也取得多项成果，特别是在压气机大小叶片先进气动布局、边界层转捩过程中三维不稳定波发展的理论描述和旋转物体的边界层　流动研究等方面处于国内领先水平。2000年获何良何利基金科学与技术进步奖。

直8直升机是我国目前现役最大吨位的国产直升机，在我国陆海空三军和民用领域有着广泛的应用。常州兰翔机械总厂作为直8直升机国产涡轴6发动机的承制单位、国内大功率直升机发动机主要制造企业，在我国航空发动机和直升机产业发展史上占有一席之地。

WZ6增大功率改型，将在大小叶片技术验证机的基础上，全面改进压气机，燃烧室以及涡轮，将WZ6的功率提高到2000马力以上，同时将发动机的首翻期提高到1500小时以上。

Mind you I heard there is also another FWS-15 for J-31.All these engines can be referred as FWS-15, this is so Chinese that only a Chinese can understand why.

One of the reason I can think of is that because the benefit of reduced weight,size and component parts resulting from the reduced stage of compressor can only be maximized by other changes also need to be made on combustion, HP turbine, LP turbine and FADEC, thus very time consuming, therefore J-20 can't wait but use FWS-10B.

Hope i am right and hope it can solve your puzzle.

 

[Ultima Thule]

The very same exact feeling from me.

I believe This is FWS-15( or to be precise, the 18 tons thrust of FWS-15), not the alleged FWS-10B.

I agree with you on this account, that the real FWS-15, of 18 tons thrust, with the configurations of 2-5-1-1 is not used to the first batch of J-20. But I don't think we need to wait that long to see it as per your prediction. Next year is the latest is my judgement based on all relevant information made publicly.

Sorry Asok, I have to differ with you on this one.
Based on what i read, I believe initially the J-20 is powered by this so-alleged FWS-10B, of 15.5 tons trust. Some people called it "FWS-15 interim version", some called it "status A". According to those in the know, this FWS-10B is the original design of FWS-15 with 3-6-1-1 configurations to power the J-20 and J-10C. The FWS-15 of 18 tons thrust we know of now is the result of adopting the new breakthrough in "the magnitude blade technology of the aviation engine compressor" -"大小叶片压气机" to the original 3-6-1-1 core design, reducing one stage of low-pressure and one stage of high-pressure compressor to become 2-5-1-1.The 24 tons version people started talking about recently maybe the ultimate goal for FWS-15 when the numbers of LP and HP compressor stages are further reduced, or maybe even reduced to single stage.
View attachment 400001

View attachment 400002

View attachment 400003

This is the news in 2013 about how this technology was first used on Chinese WZ-6 engine:
陈懋章院士长期从事叶轮机气动力学和粘性流体动力学研究的教学与研究工作，在航空发动机领域卓有建树。在他指导并参加的某型发动机跨音压气机改型设计中，敢于闯入科学研究的“禁区”，提出了一种新型压气机处理机匣，保证了发动机在整个飞行包线内稳定可靠工作，排除了空中熄火故障。它为解决高负荷高通流压气机获得高效率、高喘振裕度的难题，提供了实用而有效的方法，对促进我国发动机设计研制具有重要意义和实用价值。该项研究成果1999年获国家技术发明二等奖。作为项目负责人之一，他主持完成的“低速大尺寸压气机实验装置及转子流场动态测量技术”，是研制航空核心压气机和研究其流场精细结构的重要设备，技术含量很高，对提高我国压气机设计水平有重要作用。该项成果1993年获国家科技进步一等奖。另外，陈懋章院士在叶轮机三维流理论与应用以及粘流理论研究也取得多项成果，特别是在压气机大小叶片先进气动布局、边界层转捩过程中三维不稳定波发展的理论描述和旋转物体的边界层　流动研究等方面处于国内领先水平。2000年获何良何利基金科学与技术进步奖。

直8直升机是我国目前现役最大吨位的国产直升机，在我国陆海空三军和民用领域有着广泛的应用。常州兰翔机械总厂作为直8直升机国产涡轴6发动机的承制单位、国内大功率直升机发动机主要制造企业，在我国航空发动机和直升机产业发展史上占有一席之地。

WZ6增大功率改型，将在大小叶片技术验证机的基础上，全面改进压气机，燃烧室以及涡轮，将WZ6的功率提高到2000马力以上，同时将发动机的首翻期提高到1500小时以上。

Mind you I heard there is also another FWS-15 for J-31.All these engines can be referred as FWS-15, this is so Chinese that only a Chinese can understand why.

One of the reason I can think of is that because the benefit of reduced weight,size and component parts resulting from the reduced stage of compressor can only be maximized by other changes also need to be made on combustion, HP turbine, LP turbine and FADEC, thus very time consuming, therefore J-20 can't wait but use FWS-10B.

Hope i am right and hope it can solve your puzzle.

But bro @Asok is partially wrong about WS-15, But @Deino is totally wrong about his baseless eye catching assessment

 

[帅的一匹]

The very same exact feeling from me.

I believe This is FWS-15( or to be precise, the 18 tons thrust of FWS-15), not the alleged FWS-10B.

I agree with you on this account, that the real FWS-15, of 18 tons thrust, with the configurations of 2-5-1-1 is not used to the first batch of J-20. But I don't think we need to wait that long to see it as per your prediction. Next year is the latest is my judgement based on all relevant information made publicly.

Sorry Asok, I have to differ with you on this one.
Based on what i read, I believe initially the J-20 is powered by this so-alleged FWS-10B, of 15.5 tons trust. Some people called it "FWS-15 interim version", some called it "status A". According to those in the know, this FWS-10B is the original design of FWS-15 with 3-6-1-1 configurations to power the J-20 and J-10C. The FWS-15 of 18 tons thrust we know of now is the result of adopting the new breakthrough in "the magnitude blade technology of the aviation engine compressor" -"大小叶片压气机" to the original 3-6-1-1 core design, reducing one stage of low-pressure and one stage of high-pressure compressor to become 2-5-1-1.The 24 tons version people started talking about recently maybe the ultimate goal for FWS-15 when the numbers of LP and HP compressor stages are further reduced, or maybe even reduced to single stage.
View attachment 400001

View attachment 400002

View attachment 400003

This is the news in 2013 about how this technology was first used on Chinese WZ-6 engine:
陈懋章院士长期从事叶轮机气动力学和粘性流体动力学研究的教学与研究工作，在航空发动机领域卓有建树。在他指导并参加的某型发动机跨音压气机改型设计中，敢于闯入科学研究的“禁区”，提出了一种新型压气机处理机匣，保证了发动机在整个飞行包线内稳定可靠工作，排除了空中熄火故障。它为解决高负荷高通流压气机获得高效率、高喘振裕度的难题，提供了实用而有效的方法，对促进我国发动机设计研制具有重要意义和实用价值。该项研究成果1999年获国家技术发明二等奖。作为项目负责人之一，他主持完成的“低速大尺寸压气机实验装置及转子流场动态测量技术”，是研制航空核心压气机和研究其流场精细结构的重要设备，技术含量很高，对提高我国压气机设计水平有重要作用。该项成果1993年获国家科技进步一等奖。另外，陈懋章院士在叶轮机三维流理论与应用以及粘流理论研究也取得多项成果，特别是在压气机大小叶片先进气动布局、边界层转捩过程中三维不稳定波发展的理论描述和旋转物体的边界层　流动研究等方面处于国内领先水平。2000年获何良何利基金科学与技术进步奖。

直8直升机是我国目前现役最大吨位的国产直升机，在我国陆海空三军和民用领域有着广泛的应用。常州兰翔机械总厂作为直8直升机国产涡轴6发动机的承制单位、国内大功率直升机发动机主要制造企业，在我国航空发动机和直升机产业发展史上占有一席之地。

WZ6增大功率改型，将在大小叶片技术验证机的基础上，全面改进压气机，燃烧室以及涡轮，将WZ6的功率提高到2000马力以上，同时将发动机的首翻期提高到1500小时以上。

Mind you I heard there is also another FWS-15 for J-31.All these engines can be referred as FWS-15, this is so Chinese that only a Chinese can understand why.

One of the reason I can think of is that because the benefit of reduced weight,size and component parts resulting from the reduced stage of compressor can only be maximized by other changes also need to be made on combustion, HP turbine, LP turbine and FADEC, thus very time consuming, therefore J-20 can't wait but use FWS-10B.

Hope i am right and hope it can solve your puzzle.

What is the detail of magnitude blade technology? Seems a very good one!

The WS10b is actually the WS15 stage 1, and J20 will be in complete status after for WS15 stage 2. I'm. Quite interested in the tailored down sized version of WS15 for FC31!

 

[Tiqiu]

What is the detail of magnitude blade technology? Seems a very good one!

The WS10b is actually the WS15 stage 1, and J20 will be in complete status after for WS15 stage 2. I'm. Quite interested in the tailored down sized version of WS15 for FC31!

According to the US IHPTET 10-year development outlook, this magnitude blade one-stage compressor has the same efficiency to the normal blade 3-stage of F100-PW-220. According to the Chinese study, ultimately this tech can reduce the engine weight by 30%-40%, axle length by 30%-40%, component parts by 20%-30%. I guess the reduced weight and size make adding more blades possible withing the weight limit of the engine, thus lifting its trust to 24 tons ultimately.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

WS-10 = 3rd generation
WS-10B = 4th generation
WS-15 = 5th generation

pretty much like

Type 091 = 1st generation
Type 093 = 2nd generation
Type 093B = 3rd generation
Type 095 = 4th generation

The WS-10B is pretty much like the Type 093B, an intermediate generation between the previous and next generation. It is pretty much a test bed for the next generation technology.

I guess now to discuss the J-20 using the Russian engine is pretty much out of question, but it is arguable if the WS-10B did contain any help or input from Salut, since they lost their favor to Saturn in Russia and pretty much needed the cooperation with China.

It is quite likely that China hasn't installed the 180kN version of the WS-15. The current version with 150-160kN of afterburner thrust is still underpowered for a larger than F-22 aircraft like the J-20. The ultimate goal for the WS-15 in the future should be 200+kN.

 

[Asoka]

But bro @Asok is partially wrong about WS-15, But @Deino is totally wrong about his baseless eye catching assessment

I have always said, from day one, J-20 was using a prototype version that uses WS-15's core mated with WS-10 and AL-31FN technologies that the Chinese are familiar with.

You can call this version whatever you want, like WS-10x. If you said it has a WS-15 core, then I am satisfied.

Then, starting Version 2011, J-20 upgraded to the latest WS-15 engine, which was actually shorter than the prototype. The weapon bay of J-20 is now longer, because of a shorter engine. Now, Tiqiu's latest post has explained why. Thanks Bro!

And it is this version WS-15 has Thrust Vector Control Nozzles (TVC), and has maximum thrust greater than 21 tons, or 210kN.

And it is entering LRIP with J-20 on schedule as PLAAF Commander predicted in 2009.

Where is my proofs?

I have posted a lot about the WS-15, you can go read my previous posts.

Not only should the idea that a Russian made engine is entering LRIP with J-20, out of the question, the idea that J-20 has not flown with WS-15 yet, (and it will take another 5-6 years for that to happen) should also be ridiculed.

WS-15 is entering service with J-20, as per schedule, and it is amazingly powerful and has TVC.