Chengdu J-20 5th Generation Aircraft News & Discussions

[UKBengali]

In the latest Red Flag, the F-35 achieved 145 air-air kills to only 7 losses. They also destroyed 49 advanced SAMS (S-300's, S-400's, Buks etc) while operating in a IADS. The F-35's faced dozens of advanced 4th gen aircraft that were employing electronic countermeasures. These aircraft were actually respawning after being killed. An this was happening while the F-35 was operating only with the block 3i software, and not its full block 3f software capability.

In other words, the F-35 is dominating its competition. Red Flag is arguably the most realistic exercise in air combat, just short of actual war. The F-35 has even deployed to East Asia and Europe already, and will deploy on its first amphib assault vessel at the end of the year. An what have the J-20 and J-31 proven?

So the F-35 will be destroyed and have no chance? Thanks for the laugh.

Ok, any real F-22 versus F-35 exercises out there?
Not fake ones designed to sell this piece of crap overseas.

 

[UKBengali]

This Red Flag was designed to simulate the most realistic threat environment the F-35 would face today against its near peer competitors. China and Russia are nowhere near ready to deploy 5th gen fighters against the US in any significant way. What the F-35 faced, significant numbers of advanced 4th gen fighters along with advanced IADS's, is exactly the threat the F-35 would fight today. An the F-35 overwhelmingly succeeded.

Given the F-35's sensor fusion, networking, and advanced electronic attack/cyber capabilities, it is well positioned to fight and win against any potential foe.

How good is it against F-22 is the question?

 

[帅的一匹]

How good is it against F-22 is the question?

J20 is designed to hunt F22.

 

[Ultima Thule]

J20 is designed to hunt F22.

Not only F-22 but F-35 also

 

[帅的一匹]

The documentary claim China from 3th gen engines to 5th gen engines... So where is the 4th gen?

I suspect the 4th gen engines(Hybrid of WS-10 and AL-31F tech combine) are now install onboard J-10b ,J-15 and J-20. Ermei 5th gen just certify and going to be install onboard J-20 to give it a more powerful supercruise.

China 4th gen engines shall be comparable to EJ-200 thrust to weight ratio.

4th gen is WS10b

 

[52051]

Thanks guy and I am not hiding but in the forrest is correct. Here is simply no internet access.

Anyway can anyone put a summary together on what type of engine this locally manufactured engine is? As far as I see it no word mentions a WS-10X or even WS-15 by name.

So like I always said, a locally manufactured AL-31-based design is not off the table.

I am right now in Vienna and only back on Sunday evening.

And then you we can either discuss what engine it is, what consequences this has (also on my bet as promised), but only after Sunday.

All the best.
Deino

Can we all stop this nonsense talk about J-20's engine.

First, Deino, no, China dont have Al-31 production line, liscensed or not.

And I checked the CCTV video, to be fair, the video has not claimed that the engines currently used by J-20 are WS-10(highly unlikely)/WS-15(which is impossible), they merely mentioned Liming factory, an AVIC factory, build components for J-20's engine.

China will use WS-10 for J-20 initial production version, and replace them with WS-15 in later block, but during the flight test stage, there is no doubt that J-20 used a slightly modified Russian engine, which is modified with zig-zag/metal-ceramic nozzle for LO considerations, and I believe thats the component Liming factory produced for J-20's russian engine.

 

[Beast]

Can we all stop this nonsense talk about J-20's engine.

First, Deino, no, China dont have Al-31 production line, liscensed or not.

And I checked the CCTV video, to be fair, the video has not claimed that the engines currently used by J-20 are WS-10(highly unlikely)/WS-15(which is impossible), they merely mentioned Liming factory, an AVIC factory, build components for J-20's engine.

China will use WS-10 for J-20 initial production version, and replace them with WS-15 in later block, but during the flight test stage, there is no doubt that J-20 used a slightly modified Russian engine, which is modified with zig-zag/metal-ceramic nozzle for LO considerations, and I believe thats the component Liming factory produced for J-20's russian engine.

If you claimed that way, that is no more Russian engine but domestic made. And you can clearly see from the documentary they talk about fan blade which is the most critical and most difficult to make due to the extreme high temp it needs to work with. If China is able to produce the most critical part for the hybrid WS-10/AL_31 core interim engine for current J-20. What prevent them from making all other less critical part of the engine?

My theory for J-20 and J-10b current engine is ,it is a design of WS-10 and AL-31F engine mixed together called WS-10x which can pushed its thrust level comparable to 117s and F119 engines while still having decent engine lifespan. It is 100percent made in China engine with all parts produced by China. Due to illegal borrow of some AL-31F design, this engine is secretive and not much is reveal. It may appear to look like AL-31F with inner parts of exhaust and end petal looks almost similar but in fact is not any of the so called AL-31F engine. The sales of CHina report of imported AL-31F engines are far too little to support the growing number of J-15, J-10b and J-20.

J20blackdragon has previously do a very good assessment of J-10B current engine used compare to standard AL-31F engines. The details are small but what warrant such changes for a sensitive and complicated component like aero engines which require 0percent fault to work properly? The only answer is it is not the Russian imported AL-31F engine we suppose to believe.

 

[Deino]

Can we all stop this nonsense talk about J-20's engine..

To admit I need to contradict. Even if I fully understand that some don't like my questions since they are fully happy with the plain report or information that the "J-20 uses a locally manufactured engine" or maybe fear the facts. But as long as we don't know its true designation nor any specific data, I see this discussion in no way as "nonsense talk" nor a finally closed case. Hope You don't mind too much.

First, Deino, no, China dont have Al-31 production line, liscensed or not..

Thanks for that info, however it partially IMO contradicts to other reports that at least say there is a maintenance facility available with certain parts being manufactured for the overhaul-process in China. So, even if not a true licence production line, certain parts can be made in China. r am I wrong?

And I checked the CCTV video, to be fair, the video has not claimed that the engines currently used by J-20 are WS-10(highly unlikely)/WS-15(which is impossible), they merely mentioned Liming factory, an AVIC factory, build components for J-20's engine..

Thanks a lot for this and I hope others - esp. those who wish me being banned from this forum - agree with that. In essence: No single word mentions the specific engine type used on the J-20, no single word mentions WS-10B or even WS-15 ?? All this report says quite mysteriously, the "J-20 uses a locally manufactured engine" and it merely mentioned Liming factory.

China will use WS-10 for J-20 initial production version, and replace them with WS-15 in later block, but during the flight test stage, there is no doubt that J-20 used a slightly modified Russian engine, which is modified with zig-zag/metal-ceramic nozzle for LO considerations, and I believe thats the component Liming factory produced for J-20's russian engine.

That's an interesting theory, that at least in my understanding is more or less (without that WS-10-part) exactly what I proposed and bet: there is no doubt that J-20 used a slightly modified Russian engine (aka an AL-31FN-based design, most likely uprated and modified), which is modified with zig-zag/metal-ceramic nozzle for LO considerations, and I believe thats the component Liming factory produced for J-20's russian engine, which in fact is a Chinese financed, budgeted and finally manufactured highly modified engine based on the AL-31FN-X (IMO M2). I have to admit, that I still have strong reservations on a Frankerstein or hybrid engine based on WS-10 + AL-31FN, but I could accept that this special engine uses WS-10-based technologies. A WS-10B IMO is also not possible, since the WS-10B as shown at Zhuhai is completely different to the J-20's current engine.
And even more I still cannot accept - and here I'm glad the report does not say a single word - are these claims of +210 kN WS-15-pre-production models from day one. These are plain stupid.

So ... let's wait for more information what this "locally manufactured engine" really is.

Deino

 

[grey boy 2]

 

[帅的一匹]

It looks more and more kicking ***.

 

[Deino]

What the prove that J-20 is using AL-31FN, just in your eye catching fcuk, which might be wrong, its clearly said Chinese media that J-20 using indenginous engine, no more your crap AL-31FN, I will sure this from you that in future when J-20 equipped with WS-15 you will still insisted that J-20 using AL-31FN, fcuk you are reported for your baseless troll

I think You don't get it; maybe since reading comprehension is not Your issue or understanding, maybe simply You are too much nationalistic blinded and not willing ... or both.

Anyway: YES I said the AL-31FN was the engine for the J-20 in the prototypes but I also always said and I'm still sure that in the current LRIP-birds it is a modernised, uprated - and maybe even indigenous, china-manufactured - version of this engine IMO based on the M2. I cannot prove it but any of Your fan-boy friend can even less prove these WS-15 = 21 or even 24t monster, they don't even care about a designation. All they need is the report in CCTV - that by the way has been deleted already - it is China made. Hey, a BMW or Mercedes "build" in the USA is surely an indigenous USA-made engine.

Anyway, You report my post only since You don't like it and even more since You cannot prove Your claims while in the same way You insult me ! What a joke.

So let a moderator decide, who's the troll.

Have a nice day.
Deino

 

[Ultima Thule]

I think You don't get it; maybe since reading comprehension is not Your issue or understanding, maybe simply You are too much nationalistic blinded and not willing ... or both.

Anyway: YES I said the AL-31FN was the engine for the J-20 in the prototypes but I also always said and I'm still sure that in the current LRIP-birds it is a modernised, uprated - and maybe even indigenous, china-manufactured - version of this engine IMO based on the M2. I cannot prove it but any of Your fan-boy friend can even less prove these WS-15 = 21 or even 24t monster, they don't even care about a designation. All they need is the report in CCTV - that by the way has been deleted already - it is China made. Hey, a BMW or Mercedes "build" in the USA is surely an indigenous USA-made engine.

Anyway, You report my post only since You don't like it and even more since You cannot prove Your claims while in the same way You insult me ! What a joke.

So let a moderator decide, who's the troll.

Have a nice day.
Deino

what is the prove this indigenous engine based on M2 if they build any engine based on M2 they didn't called it reverse engineering not indigenous engine but you are always ranting agaisnt Chinese engine technology you always troll aginst chinese engine, oh i forget it your source is better than all those senior Chinese members like @cirr, @Beast, @ChineseTiger1986, and others what is the prove that this indigenous engine is based on M2?

 

[Deino]

I already explained my reasons and my theory so often but since in Your universe there is only BLACK (= Deino's theory, since he proposes something I don't like even if I don't even want to read his explanations) or WHITE (= ooohhh, aaahhh, YES, even if there is a TV-report that only says "locally build" and mentions no name or designation, but it must be a 24t mega-monster-hyper engine) and there's no option in between, I will no longer discuss with You.

But I give Your a promise: Any further personnel rant and insult, any further post without an argument and any additional reporting onyl since You have no argument will lead to consequences.

End of the debate.

Deino

He is not nice , don't be fool by him. When he loses his arguement by hard facts. He will ban you. His opinion of Chinese is very low although he try to act diplomatic. You are not here long enough to see his true face.

By the way, lets recall done article.

By influential global times with close tie to CPC.
http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1015727.shtml

You are so much funny and a prime example for these fan-boys: All You guys read is "uses a Chinese engine" and so You conclude it MUST be the WS-15. This engine MUST be a mega-super-hyper engine since some other obscure posters claim it to deliver 24t of thrust and Deino is stupid, so he MUST leave.

Did You even bother to read that crappy report You posted as a "source"???
Let me help You by marking the important pars in RED:

A J-20 stealth fighter of China's Bayi Aerobatic Team (1) performs at the 11th China International Aviation and Aerospace Exhibition in Zhuhai, South China's Guangdong Province, Nov. 1, 2016. China's domestic-built J-20 stealth fighter made its public debut during the exhibition on Tuesday. Photo: Cui Meng/GT

"The J-20 is a locally made fifth-generation stealth fighter jet which uses a Chinese engine, (2)" military expert Yin Zhuo confirmed in a telephone conversation with CCTV on Nov 1.

"The WS-15 turbofan engine is now under development, (3) which will improve the performance of the J-20 after becoming operational," Yin said.

1. Even a blind one knows, that the PLAAF's aerobatic team flies J-10AY and SY and that these two J-20s are definitely NOT from the Ba Yi.

2. Even more this report only says "Chinese engine" ... nothing more

3. And finally it even mentions by the this WS-15-engine and clearly says "WILL



In consequence and by all logic: this reports contains a major error (IMO questioning its reliability as a whole report), it gives no confirmation on that certain type of engine and even more it clearly say the WS-15 is in development.

So what !?? Bashing Deino again since he raises critical questions that do not fit in a fan-boy's universe or can we come back to a rational discussion.

Deino

 

[Asoka]

Let's review what Mr. Deino has said to us, earlier:

"1. J-20 #78275, and all previous versions, is still flying the bonafide Russian made, AL-31FN engine:

YES; so far all five LRIP J-20As and the prototypes 2011-2017 are using IMO a dedicated, custom-made - maybe co-developed and co-manufactured - uprated, specialised or whatever version of the AL-31FN-family. IMO - even if here I admit it is only a unproven theory - it is most likely a variant based on the AL-31FM2."


Now he is saying:

"Anyway: YES I said the AL-31FN was the engine for the J-20 in the prototypes but I also always said and I'm still sure that in the current LRIP-birds it is a modernised, uprated - and maybe even indigenous, china-manufactured - version of this engine IMO based on the M2."

Before, he was saying the J-20 engines was an engine "co-developed and co-manufacture" with Russia, now CCTV-4 program, he is saying it is "china-manufactured" based on the AL-31FM2.

Russia announced AL-31FM2, in 2012, a full year, after J-20 was flown in 2011.

There was never any news or announcement that Russia is "co-developed and co-manufacture" any engine with China. And Mr. Deino has supplied no proof to this effect either. He was purely speculating groundlessly.

How did J-20 flown with a Russian engine in 2011, that is not even announced till 2012, much less, designed, developed, and tested?

Mr. Deino has said he will resign as Moderator, if it is officially confirmed that he was wrong.

Now, I granted that it is not explicitly confirmed that J-20 is flying with WS-15, but it is clear as daylight, that J-20 is not flying with an Russian engine, definitely not a AL-31FM2 (it did not even existed yet in 2011), as Mr. Deino has consistently claimed.

It's time for Mr. Deino to honor his promise, and resign as Moderator.

It's time for Mr. Deino to go.

Bye, Farewell, Audios, Mr. Deino.

We will miss you dearly.

 

[Deino]

...

Mr. Deino has said he will resign as Moderator, if it is officially confirmed that J-20 is flying with a Chinese engine.

...

Simply not. Again, reading comprehension is not Your topic; isn't it ??

I said I will resign - and if You try to be objective by researching when this bet was first mentioned in any post (aka on 15. September 2015 (https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/chinese-aero-engine-information-thread.300409/page-11#post-7649950), when I said I would bet my membership if it uses a "version of the WS-10 Taihang".

This bet was again raised on 1. December (https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/chen...news-discussions.111471/page-330#post-7946853) when I added "that it is a special customised version of the AL-31FN."

In September 2016 I even especially mentioned (https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/chen...news-discussions.111471/page-399#post-8728524) that "the J-20 will enter with domestic engines is not a question, that's IMO a fact ... but only a matter of time until the WS-15 will be ready."

To be precicely, my bet was: https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/chen...news-discussions.111471/page-399#post-8728524

As such if You agree on our bet in the following terms:

I will resign completely from this forum even as a member and moderator if it is confirmed that the current prototypes and especially LRIP aircraft are using a WS-10-derivate. And You will resign here if it is confirmed an AL-31F or FN derivate.

So I beg You to be fair and as long as any report only says "an engine build in China" there's nothing decided.

By the way, none of You fan-boys ever wanted to join and bet to resign if it is not a WS-15 from day-one, if it is not that hyper-mega-monster 24t-engine ! So who is coward ?

Remember this post just "recently" in March 2017?:

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/chen...news-discussions.111471/page-534#post-9293753

Deino