Chengdu J-20 5th Generation Aircraft News & Discussions

[Esc8781]

I have served and worked with fighter jets for a number of years. I cannot as an engineer and someone who has served allow fanboys no older than 14 spread nonsense. Is that good enough for you?

Trash? I think not. Trash is all this speculative nonsense about a plane that noone has yet tested independently and evaluated.

get it ?

You are going too soft on them.

 

[Sasquatch]

Stick to the topic this isn't about PAK FA/Greece/Russia.

 

[amalakas]

You are going too soft on them.

they are just boys .. and a couple of guys living in their mother's basement.

Stick to the topic this isn't about PAK FA/Greece/Russia.

I beg to differ. This is about the J-20 and all I am trying to do is bring out the truth in conjunction to reality about a piece of modern engineering.

Greece/PakFa/Russia have something to do only when they are used when all other arguments have gone into dust. Feel free to go back and track who uses these arguments first.

 

[Sasquatch]

they are just boys .. and a couple of guys living in their mother's basement.




I beg to differ. This is about the J-20 and all I am trying to do is bring out the truth in conjunction to reality about a piece of modern engineering.

Greece/PakFa/Russia have something to do only when they are used when all other arguments have gone into dust. Feel free to go back and track who uses these arguments first.

I respect your points yes it's about the the J-20 and chinese members tend to go off topic was my point.

 

[Martian2]

I have served and worked with fighter jets for a number of years. I cannot as an engineer and someone who has served allow fanboys no older than 14 spread nonsense. Is that good enough for you?

Trash? I think not. Trash is all this speculative nonsense about a plane that noone has yet tested independently and evaluated.

get it ?

Are you a hypocrite, Amalakas?

Has the F-22 been "tested independently and evaluated"?

How about the T-50/Pak-Fa? Has that been "tested independently and evaluated"?

How about the F-15, F-16, F-18, etc.? Have any of these military planes fulfilled your criteria of being "tested independently and evaluated"? If so, by whom?

If not, I hear you making a whole bunch of claims about all of these planes. Are you not a hypocrite who cannot meet your own self-proclaimed standards?

Have you been talking trash all this time according to your own demand for an independent test and evaluation?

----------

One more thing, how is your former experience with fighter jets relevant to this J-20 thread? Have you ever worked on a stealth fighter? If not, how is your experience relevant to the discussion of stealth design that we mostly discuss in here?

By the way, you've also said a lot of idiotic things in this thread that I refuted with citations. I just don't feel like digging through your old garbage to remind you.

 

[amalakas]

Are you a hypocrite, Amalakas?

Has the F-22 been "tested independently and evaluated"?

How about the T-50/Pak-Fa? Has that been "tested independently and evaluated"?

How about the F-15, F-16, F-18, etc.? Have any of these military planes fulfilled your criteria of being "tested independently and evaluated"? If so, by whom?

If not, I hear you making a whole bunch of claims about all of these planes. Are you not a hypocrite who cannot meet your own self-proclaimed standards?

Have you been talking trash all this time according to your own demand for an independent test and evaluation?

I can happily reply to this.. you couldn't have served me better.

"Has the F-22 been "tested independently and evaluated"?"

Unfortunately for you, yes. LM has been more than forthcoming with the plane. NATO members have access to the plane's performance during exercises. Many NATO members have flown against it during RED FLAG. We know how the plane looks as an adversary.
Independent ACMI has shown how the Raptor engaged and sim destroyed targets while it also indicated how friendlies could not track and lock on the Raptor. Even here we have discussed those things, but you were not paying attention.

"How about the T-50/Pak-Fa? Has that been "tested independently and evaluated"?"

No it hasn't. But you don't see anyone claiming it has this range, this many missiles, it will be used like this, it can outfly this and that, its radar can pick the F-22 before the F-22 can pick it up etc etc etc etc.

"How about the F-15, F-16, F-18, etc.? Have any of these military planes fulfilled your criteria of being "tested independently and evaluated"? If so, by whom?"

Yes they have, as have the MiG-23,25,29 and Su-27.

By whom? Dutch, Italian, Spanish,Greek, Turkish, Egyptian, UAE, Israeli, Bulgarian, German airforces and the common exercises these people have conducted over a period spanning 4 decades.

Support and maintenance personnel, Wing commanders and pilots have all sat down and exchanged experiences and know hows more times than you can imagine.

I have sat down with people from Germany and France and discussed the merits of flying and operating a MiG-29. I have discussed with Russian crews the maintenance cycles of an Su-27. I have tracked a Turkish F-16 with the Radar of an SA-8, and I know how well the AA system and the countermeasures system of the F-16 worked.


NATO is currently in a position to know that the aforementioned planes do exactly what they say they do on the tin.

It is more than anyone can say about the J-20, and I am not blaming the J-20 for this. I am resting the blame solely on people with your attitude. Someone who has calculated the canard of the J-20 to be roughly the size of a large skateboard.

Someone who is meriting a plane simply because it is painted black.
Someone who refuses to see the same "shortcomings" on the J-20 as all the other planes he is putting down.

 

[eachus]

I can happily reply to this.. you couldn't have served me better.

"Has the F-22 been "tested independently and evaluated"?"

Unfortunately for you, yes. LM has been more than forthcoming with the plane. NATO members have access to the plane's performance during exercises. Many NATO members have flown against it during RED FLAG. We know how the plane looks as an adversary.
Independent ACMI has shown how the Raptor engaged and sim destroyed targets while it also indicated how friendlies could not track and lock on the Raptor. Even here we have discussed those things, but you were not paying attention.

I dont argue with the export version of fighters like Su27, F16. but for F22, I doubt it. all valuable specifications are top secrets of the Pentagon. If F22 tested by other than USA, the info can be leak out so that will not be a case. all tests are fake. you wont have those tests and no meaningful tests.

 

[gambit]

^^^^^


Stop talking something you know nothing fan boy
You need to learn basic radar reflection first, before outburst severely laughable comments like the above

And what is your aviation 'experience' or 'study' again?

 

[amalakas]

I dont argue with the export version of fighters like Su27, F16. but for F22, I doubt it. all valuable specifications are top secrets of the Pentagon. If F22 tested by other than USA, the info can be leak out so that will not be a case. all tests are fake. you wont have those tests and no meaningful tests.

I didn't talk about specification, nor did I say the plane was given out to be tested. Read carefully what I wrote.

LM is in a marketing campaign for years for the F-35. They have been very forthcoming in showing off.

Nobody took an F-22 home to test it, we have however seen that our systems have severe limitations against it. Missiles don't get a lock on it, F-16 and F-15 radars cannot track it. ACMI indicates how the planes pick out targets without AWACS present.

it shows you how they behave like a pack of wolves picking out sheep. That's how we know it can do its job.

But no, nobody handed us a dossier with the technical specs of the F-22.

 

[gambit]

Are you a hypocrite, Amalakas?

Has the F-22 been "tested independently and evaluated"?

In the specific area of low radar observability? Yes. From more than one country with more than one radar system, which include those long wavelengths the lot of you erroneously believes to be 'stealth' killer.

This is not 'Chinese physics' where radiation patterns differs from between an American product versus a Chinese product. We have no control over how a French or German radar operator using his own gear, be it a ground or aircraft system, to try to detect a 'clean' F-22, meaning no radar enhancers installed, and gave his analysis to his own country's military leadership. So either all these countries are in cahoots with each other in a conspiracy to hype up the F-22, or that they do not like what they see or rather do not see, and kept quiet about their experiences.

 

[amalakas]

In the specific area of low radar observability? Yes. From more than one country with more than one radar system, which include those long wavelengths the lot of you erroneously believes to be 'stealth' killer.

This is not 'Chinese physics' where radiation patterns differs from between an American product versus a Chinese product. We have no control over how a French or German radar operator using his own gear, be it a ground or aircraft system, to try to detect a 'clean' F-22, meaning no radar enhancers installed, and gave his analysis to his own country's military leadership. So either all these countries are in cahoots with each other in a conspiracy to hype up the F-22, or that they do not like what they see or rather do not see, and kept quiet about their experiences.

They haven't kept quiet. As you know, people in uniform talk with other people in uniform when it not "top secret".

I have long left the service, but I had already heard about the Greek RED FLAG participation just a week after our boys flew back.

People are not impressed. They are sceptical. They have began to recognise the limitations imposed on their systems.

 

[gambit]

They haven't kept quiet. As you know, people in uniform talk with other people in uniform when it not "top secret".

I have long left the service, but I had already heard about the Greek RED FLAG participation just a week after our boys flew back.

People are not impressed. They are sceptical. They have began to recognise the limitations imposed on their systems.

Am curious by what you mean. Are you saying the Greeks were not impressed by the F-22's under radar? Or that they were not impressed with their own gear and performance?

 

[amalakas]

Am curious by what you mean. Are you saying the Greeks were not impressed by the F-22's under radar? Or that they were not impressed with their own gear and performance?

Only our F-16s got a glimpse of the F-22. No F-22 has flown in Greek airspace (that we know of). and Greek AWACS aircrews who shared their experiences.

No, I mean there is not much time for lasting impression feeling, you start being sceptical about the limitations of your own gear in the light of these potential adversary systems.

Greeks have a very unique perspective of things. Greeks will be flying against F-35s very soon. Turkey is a developing member. They will be getting them at least 5-8 years before we are able to get them. So we are very sceptical about the ability of our systems to help us carry out our mission. We have a big problem on our hands. That is what I meant.

 

[eachus]

I didn't talk about specification, nor did I say the plane was given out to be tested. Read carefully what I wrote.

LM is in a marketing campaign for years for the F-35. They have been very forthcoming in showing off.

Nobody took an F-22 home to test it, we have however seen that our systems have severe limitations against it. Missiles don't get a lock on it, F-16 and F-15 radars cannot track it. ACMI indicates how the planes pick out targets without AWACS present.

it shows you how they behave like a pack of wolves picking out sheep. That's how we know it can do its job.

But no, nobody handed us a dossier with the technical specs of the F-22.

even US partners had been ordered F35, UK for instance they only get one copy F35 for a test purpose, then later may order a few more for eval. who is going to trust US "tested independently and evaluated" results. every country will test again by its own "independent" organization.

 

[Martian2]

I can happily reply to this.. you couldn't have served me better.

"Has the F-22 been "tested independently and evaluated"?"

Unfortunately for you, yes. LM has been more than forthcoming with the plane. NATO members have access to the plane's performance during exercises. Many NATO members have flown against it during RED FLAG. We know how the plane looks as an adversary.
Independent ACMI has shown how the Raptor engaged and sim destroyed targets while it also indicated how friendlies could not track and lock on the Raptor. Even here we have discussed those things, but you were not paying attention.

"How about the T-50/Pak-Fa? Has that been "tested independently and evaluated"?"

No it hasn't. But you don't see anyone claiming it has this range, this many missiles, it will be used like this, it can outfly this and that, its radar can pick the F-22 before the F-22 can pick it up etc etc etc etc.

"How about the F-15, F-16, F-18, etc.? Have any of these military planes fulfilled your criteria of being "tested independently and evaluated"? If so, by whom?"

Yes they have, as have the MiG-23,25,29 and Su-27.

By whom? Dutch, Italian, Spanish,Greek, Turkish, Egyptian, UAE, Israeli, Bulgarian, German airforces and the common exercises these people have conducted over a period spanning 4 decades.

Support and maintenance personnel, Wing commanders and pilots have all sat down and exchanged experiences and know hows more times than you can imagine.

I have sat down with people from Germany and France and discussed the merits of flying and operating a MiG-29. I have discussed with Russian crews the maintenance cycles of an Su-27. I have tracked a Turkish F-16 with the Radar of an SA-8, and I know how well the AA system and the countermeasures system of the F-16 worked.


NATO is currently in a position to know that the aforementioned planes do exactly what they say they do on the tin.

It is more than anyone can say about the J-20, and I am not blaming the J-20 for this. I am resting the blame solely on people with your attitude. Someone who has calculated the canard of the J-20 to be roughly the size of a large skateboard.

Someone who is meriting a plane simply because it is painted black.
Someone who refuses to see the same "shortcomings" on the J-20 as all the other planes he is putting down.

1. Show me the citations where they published the specific performance results of non-stealth aircraft comparisons (e.g. how far did each missile fly to its maximum range, the maximum g's in a turn, the service ceiling, etc.). As far as I know, the detailed results are confidential.

2. You have just admitted you're a hypocrite. You have been going on and on about the T-50/Pak-Fa. Yet, according to your own admission, there have been no independent tests and evaluations.

3. You claim hearsay from support personnel. Basically, a reporter claim they heard someone say something. There is another word for that. It's called gossip. It does not qualify as fact or evidence under your self-stated standard of independent tests and evaluations.

4. Lockheed Martin is the builder of the F-22. How can they also conduct an INDEPENDENT test? You're not making any sense. Since the F-22 is classified, all of your comments have also been trash under your own standard, yes?

5. I didn't hear your comment regarding your worthless experience with non-stealth fighters and your comments in a J-20 stealth fighter thread. Did you forget to address the issue?

Nobody took an F-22 home to test it, we have however seen that our systems have severe limitations against it. Missiles don't get a lock on it, F-16 and F-15 radars cannot track it. ACMI indicates how the planes pick out targets without AWACS present.
...
But no, nobody handed us a dossier with the technical specs of the F-22.

Where is your citation from independent tests and evaluations to support your claim? Or is your comment just trash according to your self-stated standard? I disagree with your claim. My understanding is a F-16 or F-15 with an AESA radar can track the F-22 under 20km. Do you want me to show you some open-source graphs on the F-22's RCS under 20km?

Make up your mind Amalakas. Either everyone has been making reasonable comments based on open-source information or all of your comments are trash because you can't cite independent tests and evaluations.

You set a very high standard and I'm only asking you to live up to your own expectations. I think you're a hypocrite. You can either climb down or keep looking ridiculous (e.g. I'm going to call your comments trash if you can't provide an independent test and evaluation to meet your own standard).