Chengdu J-10 Multirole Fighter Air Craft News & Discussions

[fatman17]

admin both JF-17 and J-10 threads have been hijacked by discussions not related to these. might as well just have one section on the forum and discuss everything under the fkkg sun.....why bother

 

[That Guy]

admin both JF-17 and J-10 threads have been hijacked by discussions not related to these. might as well just have one section on the forum and discuss everything under the fkkg sun.....why bother

haha, I don't think it's an intentional hijacking, it's more like a...follow up. One thing leads to another and the subject changes.

 

[fatman17]

Uncertainty Surrounds Pakistan Leader's Stance on Taliban, Military

May. 22, 2013

By USMAN ANSARI


ISLAMABAD — The election of Nawaz Sharif as Pakistani prime minister may bode well for a wider détente with India, but dealing with the Taliban insurgency and relations with the military are uncertain, analysts said.

Salma Malik, an assistant professor in the Department of Defence & Strategic Studies at Quaid-i-Azam University here, said that before the election, Sharif had been “courting radical elements, hosting them in Lahore,” and appearing to adopt a rightist ideology.

But the outlook for Sharif, who was overthrown in a 1999 military coup, is not so simple, Malik said.

“We must be reminded of the fact that he’s the same leader who had at one time launched an anti-militancy crackdown, established [toothless] anti-terrorist courts and faced bomb attacks as a result, which claimed the lives of many of his allies, kith and kin,” she said.

Nevertheless, she said, “staying in opposition has made it very easy for [Sharif] to flirt with militants” for political expediency, “but how he will manage these elements once in power is anyone’s guess.”

While securing a bailout from the International Monetary Fund is a priority for Sharif, Malik said that improving the security situation in Pakistan “means either locking horns with militants or appeasing them,” which could go counter to the demands of military operations and US interests.

Sharif has said, most recently to the BBC, that he will facilitate the US withdrawal from Afghanistan, but dodged questions about maintaining pressure on the Taliban.

Great uncertainty remains regarding Afghanistan over the next 12 months, Malik said, when Sharif will have to handle the “massive readjustments at all levels, internally and externally.”

Much, therefore, depends on his relationship with Pakistan’s military, which hopes economic recovery will resuscitate its stalled modernization efforts.

Analyst Haris Khan, of the Pakistan Military Consortium think tank, said that even in the unlikely event of an economic boost, “it will take about two years before one can see sustainable positive revenues.”

Nevertheless, he said the military will want to see progress with the J-10B/FC-20 fighter jet, submarines and warships, and defense cooperation with China, Turkey and Ukraine.

The April visit of Lt. Gen. Viktor Nikolayevich Bondarev, commander in chief of the Russian Air Force, could indicate a Russian jet engine deal to power the FC-20.

However, the “Chinese want some type of assurance that if they give Pakistan some soft loans, [Pakistan] can provide some type of collateral for these loans,” Khan said. “The first batch of 36 FC-20/J-10B was estimated at [US] $1.9 billion plus.”

Though economic recovery is widely expected, Brian Cloughley, a former Australian defense attaché to Islamabad, said Sharif is known to harbor grudges, and his relationship with the military is not expected to be comfortable.

Cloughley, however, said he is more optimistic regarding reduced tensions with archrival India.

“There is still a possibility of rapprochement with India,” he said.



there you go folks!!! confirmation why J-10/FC-20 is not sold to PAF.....its the engine....i've been pushing this point and now some confirmation.

 

[sancho]

However, the “Chinese want some type of assurance that if they give Pakistan some soft loans, [Pakistan] can provide some type of collateral for these loans,” Khan said. “The first batch of 36 FC-20/J-10B was estimated at [US] $1.9 billion plus.”

This is also interesting, since it puts the unit cost of J10B around $52 millions. Pretty cheap for a 4.5 gen fighter, but pretty expensive compared to an upgraded JF17 right?

 

[Jango]

Uncertainty Surrounds Pakistan Leader's Stance on Taliban, Military

May. 22, 2013

By USMAN ANSARI


ISLAMABAD — The election of Nawaz Sharif as Pakistani prime minister may bode well for a wider détente with India, but dealing with the Taliban insurgency and relations with the military are uncertain, analysts said.

Salma Malik, an assistant professor in the Department of Defence & Strategic Studies at Quaid-i-Azam University here, said that before the election, Sharif had been “courting radical elements, hosting them in Lahore,” and appearing to adopt a rightist ideology.

But the outlook for Sharif, who was overthrown in a 1999 military coup, is not so simple, Malik said.

“We must be reminded of the fact that he’s the same leader who had at one time launched an anti-militancy crackdown, established [toothless] anti-terrorist courts and faced bomb attacks as a result, which claimed the lives of many of his allies, kith and kin,” she said.

Nevertheless, she said, “staying in opposition has made it very easy for [Sharif] to flirt with militants” for political expediency, “but how he will manage these elements once in power is anyone’s guess.”

While securing a bailout from the International Monetary Fund is a priority for Sharif, Malik said that improving the security situation in Pakistan “means either locking horns with militants or appeasing them,” which could go counter to the demands of military operations and US interests.

Sharif has said, most recently to the BBC, that he will facilitate the US withdrawal from Afghanistan, but dodged questions about maintaining pressure on the Taliban.

Great uncertainty remains regarding Afghanistan over the next 12 months, Malik said, when Sharif will have to handle the “massive readjustments at all levels, internally and externally.”

Much, therefore, depends on his relationship with Pakistan’s military, which hopes economic recovery will resuscitate its stalled modernization efforts.

Analyst Haris Khan, of the Pakistan Military Consortium think tank, said that even in the unlikely event of an economic boost, “it will take about two years before one can see sustainable positive revenues.”

Nevertheless, he said the military will want to see progress with the J-10B/FC-20 fighter jet, submarines and warships, and defense cooperation with China, Turkey and Ukraine.

The April visit of Lt. Gen. Viktor Nikolayevich Bondarev, commander in chief of the Russian Air Force, could indicate a Russian jet engine deal to power the FC-20.

However, the “Chinese want some type of assurance that if they give Pakistan some soft loans, [Pakistan] can provide some type of collateral for these loans,” Khan said. “The first batch of 36 FC-20/J-10B was estimated at [US] $1.9 billion plus.”

Though economic recovery is widely expected, Brian Cloughley, a former Australian defense attaché to Islamabad, said Sharif is known to harbor grudges, and his relationship with the military is not expected to be comfortable.

Cloughley, however, said he is more optimistic regarding reduced tensions with archrival India.

“There is still a possibility of rapprochement with India,” he said.



there you go folks!!! confirmation why J-10/FC-20 is not sold to PAF.....its the engine....i've been pushing this point and now some confirmation.

Aren't these guys from the pakdef website?

Everyone on this forum were also saying about the engine, this confirmation was from other forum members of another forum. Don't worry sir jee, we believe you!

 

[araz]

This is also interesting, since it puts the unit cost of J10B around $52 millions. Pretty cheap for a 4.5 gen fighter, but pretty expensive compared to an upgraded JF17 right?

This is the cost of establishement of the whole infrastructure for the planes. Who said newer platforms are not expensive. This may have been one of the prime reasons PAF is delaying and procrastinating about the FC20. The unit cost may well be low. I still think the FC20 will only come to PAF with a chinese engine. We have not yet escaped the clutches of the US and to fall into the clutches of the red Bear would not be a wise move. I dont think the Russians would be any less scrupulous than the USA.
Araz

 

[Donatello]

This is also interesting, since it puts the unit cost of J10B around $52 millions. Pretty cheap for a 4.5 gen fighter, but pretty expensive compared to an upgraded JF17 right?

The initial production always costs more. As the product is finalized and produced in larger numbers the cost automatically comes down due to economies of scale. 52Million is actually very expensive.

 

[sancho]

This is the cost of establishement of the whole infrastructure for the planes. Who said newer platforms are not expensive.

Of course they are more expensive, but still you might be able to get 1.5 or even 2 x JF17 block 2 or 3 for a single J10B with similar techs and weapons. Do you think that would be worth it, not to mention that the operational costs for PAF would be higher too?

 

[farhan_9909]

due to the improving relations between russia and pak..we may indeed see re export license of j-10b with al 31 to china for pakistan

 

[cloud_digger]

Of course they are more expensive, but still you might be able to get 1.5 or even 2 x JF17 block 2 or 3 for a single J10B with similar techs and weapons. Do you think that would be worth it, not to mention that the operational costs for PAF would be higher too?

That is a contradictory statement with in the context of your post. If PAF goes for advanced blocks of JFT instead of J10, they would still have to buy more numbers of JFT to compensate for the fact that JFT is a low end fighter but the J10 is a high end fighter. Like you said, they will get a lot more number of JFT for the same amount of money compared to J10. Say 50 J10s cost the same as 80 JFT (just throwing numbers here), will the operation cost of 50 J10 be more than 80 JFT? Somehow I think not.

 

[That Guy]

That is a contradictory statement with in the context of your post. If PAF goes for advanced blocks of JFT instead of J10, they would still have to buy more numbers of JFT to compensate for the fact that JFT is a low end fighter but the J10 is a high end fighter. Like you said, they will get a lot more number of JFT for the same amount of money compared to J10. Say 50 J10s cost the same as 80 JFT (just throwing numbers here), will the operation cost of 50 J10 be more than 80 JFT? Somehow I think not.

Considering maintenance costs would be higher for the J10, as it is a higher quality product, I think 50 J10s would cost more than 80 JF-17s. One could argue that proliferation of tech and spare parts could lower long run costs, but that is no guarantee, as inflation is not the same as proliferation.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

If pakistan buys j-10 its top priority must be AESA radar for BVR and for WVR an HMS/High off boresight wvr missile like r-73 combo.Without these 2 things coming with it,it will be at a disadvantage against IAF frontline fighters that will have AESA like su-30 mki with zhuk aesa and rafale with its own aesa,and most IAF aircraft have hms/r-73/python combo.
If they can get these 2 features then it can be equalizer if they buy around 150.
Staelth won't be a game breaker in the subcontinent till a decade from now.

 

[sancho]

That is a contradictory statement with in the context of your post. If PAF goes for advanced blocks of JFT instead of J10, they would still have to buy more numbers of JFT to compensate for the fact that JFT is a low end fighter but the J10 is a high end fighter. Like you said, they will get a lot more number of JFT for the same amount of money compared to J10. Say 50 J10s cost the same as 80 JFT (just throwing numbers here), will the operation cost of 50 J10 be more than 80 JFT? Somehow I think not.

It isn't because the techs, weapons and carrying capabilities are similar. The difference is mainly the design and some additional advantages, which makes the operational difference far less than the cost difference.
Besides the part that you marked was about operational costs, which are higher for a medium class J10B, than for a light class JFT, or because PAF need to procure a different engine.

 

[cloud_digger]

Considering maintenance costs would be higher for the J10, as it is a higher quality product, I think 50 J10s would cost more than 80 JF-17s. One could argue that proliferation of tech and spare parts could lower long run costs, but that is no guarantee, as inflation is not the same as proliferation.

I guess you have a point there, 80 JFT vs 50 J10 means, while there are more JFT to maintain, the tech and spare parts proliferation is also higher, which in turn brings down maintenance costs. But I some how feel it will not bring down so low as to be lower than the maintenance costs of 50 J10.

Also, another plus for lower number of J10 instead of higher number of JFT (in my opinion) is that the J10 can perform a more effective strike role (its useful load is almost twice that of JFT). It seems both have an almost similar internal fuel capacity (slight advantage to J10?), but a higher payload means J10 has a clear advantage. Granted you can increase the the JFT range with external fuel tanks, but that would mean lesser munitions. Similarly, J10 can take on external fuel tanks while still be able to have a decent strike/defence munitions package.

All in all, in my opinion, J10 is the aircraft to go for, not more JFT, atleast not more JFT at the expence of J10.

 

[araz]

Of course they are more expensive, but still you might be able to get 1.5 or even 2 x JF17 block 2 or 3 for a single J10B with similar techs and weapons. Do you think that would be worth it, not to mention that the operational costs for PAF would be higher too?

Whereas the reduction in platforms may have its own economic and strategic sense, unifying it down to one platform might not be such a good idea. Remember JFT is a small plane and eventually its size will determine what you can put on it. You will need something more than just JFT for the higher end of the hi lo combo. PAFs sense of insecurity with US platforms is now becoming more and more apparent. So we will need another platform. What is not clear is which one. If IAF inducts rafale soon along with M2K upgrade and upgraded SUs and Pakfa, PAF s response may well be to ditch J10 and go for J31. If there is cooling of tensions and I hope there is, then we may well sit it out with some more f16s and wait it out for the J31. If any urgent situation arises and this is where things get murky there may appear an opening for j10B.This is how the chess board is panning out at the moment.
Araz