Chengdu J-10 Multirole Fighter Air Craft News & Discussions

[sancho]

Whereas the reduction in platforms may have its own economic and strategic sense, unifying it down to one platform might not be such a good idea. Remember JFT is a small plane and eventually its size will determine what you can put on it. You will need something more than just JFT for the higher end of the hi lo combo. PAFs sense of insecurity with US platforms is now becoming more and more apparent. So we will need another platform. What is not clear is which one. If IAF inducts rafale soon along with M2K upgrade and upgraded SUs and Pakfa, PAF s response may well be to ditch J10 and go for J31. If there is cooling of tensions and I hope there is, then we may well sit it out with some more f16s and wait it out for the J31. If any urgent situation arises and this is where things get murky there may appear an opening for j10B.This is how the chess board is panning out at the moment.
Araz

Not the size of the fighter decides what you can put on it, but the number of hardpoints and especially the wet/heavypoints!
Since J10B disappointingly don't come with increased internal fuel, CFTs, or additional wingstations, most of the payload will be the same as on JF 17.
Both have 3 x wingstations and the inner once will be the heavy / wetstations. So be it with C802, Raad, or any stand off weapons, both fighters will be limited to a single centerline fuel tank only.
The fuselage stations of J10 are benefits only when a pod needs to be carried or for CAS with smaller bombers, but for all main weaponary, the load performance will be pretty much the same.
Compare that to a JF17 / J31 combo! A twin engine, medium class fighter, with full internal fuel, if I'm not wrong 4 x wing stations + fully internal fuel + internal weapons + same engines as JF17 + STEALTH

J10 to counter MMRCA is just a populistic argument for the mass, but neither is MMRCA as a whole is aimed on Pakistan, nor will small numbers of J10B make any difference. J31 on the otherside is a game changer even in smaller numbers. The stealth advantage provides PAF with offensive capabilities, with credible loads and to longer ranges, nothing that J10B can offer.

 

[Munir]

I doubt they want any offensive capabilities. PAF is always defending. And if needed it will fight but never attacking as target...

 

[Viper0011.]

Of course they are more expensive, but still you might be able to get 1.5 or even 2 x JF17 block 2 or 3 for a single J10B with similar techs and weapons. Do you think that would be worth it, not to mention that the operational costs for PAF would be higher too?

If the PAF wants to maintain higher cost and a more advanced jet...I'd say go for J-11. You get a bigger platform, ability to deal with a bigger threat or be used as a bomb truck in a defensive ground attack role. But J-10 will be limited in its ability. The bigger size can house a bigger range radar too and AESA at it.
So I'd say J-11 (50 for the air force - 20 for the Navy) with 300 JFT's BI & II and 100 JFT's BII and III (20 for the Navy also) with 60 F-16's all block 40 AND 40 J-31 (deployed in smaller squadrons across Pakistan for 'special missions' only) would make it a VERY credible air force for the next ten - fifteen years.

 

[That Guy]

If the PAF wants to maintain higher cost and a more advanced jet...I'd say go for J-11. You get a bigger platform, ability to deal with a bigger threat or be used as a bomb truck in a defensive ground attack role. But J-10 will be limited in its ability. The bigger size can house a bigger range radar too and AESA at it.
So I'd say J-11 (50 for the air force - 20 for the Navy) with 300 JFT's BI & II and 100 JFT's BII and III (20 for the Navy also) with 60 F-16's all block 40 AND 40 J-31 (deployed in smaller squadrons across Pakistan for 'special missions' only) would make it a VERY credible air force for the next ten - fifteen years.

Easier said than done. The Chinese won't give away the J-11 (Russia would object, as the J-11 is a copy of Russian Su-27), and Pakistan has no interest in it.

 

[sancho]

I doubt they want any offensive capabilities. PAF is always defending. And if needed it will fight but never attacking as target...

Stealth offers you automatically offensive capabilities, especially for pre-emptive strikes, so that has nothing to do with PAFs policies, but with the capability of the fighter. And if I remember correctly, PAF has done strikes within India in earlier wars too, so the policy is not only defensive anyway.

If the PAF wants to maintain higher cost and a more advanced jet...I'd say go for J-11.

Besides that your wishlist is financially not feasable, J11s sales might be restricted and have the same limitations as J10 has compared to J31. It's a current gen fighter, not better than what IAF has and therefor by far not a game changer. Even if IAF might have FGFA by the time PAF gets J31, the latter will be superior to at least 70% of IAFs fleet, something that is not possible with J10s or J11s. So saving the money for the game changer in future makes more sense, than making China happy with more expensive Chinese fighter, with the same weapons and most of the same techs.

 

[Viper0011.]

Besides that your wishlist is financially not feasable, J11s sales might be restricted and have the same limitations as J10 has compared to J31. It's a current gen fighter, not better than what IAF has and therefor by far not a game changer.

You didn't care to understand or even read my post carefully. 1: The "Wish list" as you call it is nothing more than half fixed Pakistani economy. Remember, if they hadn't conducted nuclear tests, they'd be a few numbers behind you (due to smaller population) but still one of the top 20 economies!! That's your Lehman Brothers, Goldman Sachs, etc's reports as of 1998. They were ready to use the talent of about 100 million young people by injecting a few hundred billions into Pakistan's economy. So....if their newly elected government does what it's supposed to do and the economy grows 7% in their last 3 years (first 2 years to fix what's broken, electricity, etc).....that'll be a 21% growth in the economy, which means, they can spend about 5 billion on weapons (or more) easily. No stress of any kind. Cash talks, bullshi$t walks!
Second, you are correct that the bigger J-11 doesn't offer anything that the Indians don't have. That wasn't my point, my point was.....does it 'equally' offer what India has? Or MORE than J-10? Answer is, yes!!! IT DOES offer a lot more than J-10. S0 50 J-10's (single engine, reduced weight, smaller frame) vs. 50 J-11's......twin turbine, very large weapons storage, much larger radar, etc, etc gives them a MUCH stronger punch. Hope you got it this time. Stealth remains a separate item and has nothing to do with J-10 or J-11.....stealth will need to be acquired without any doubt and to create parity with India even with less numbers.

Easier said than done. The Chinese won't give away the J-11 (Russia would object, as the J-11 is a copy of Russian Su-27), and Pakistan has no interest in it.

You sound desperate man. Try asking the Chinese or even the Britts or the Russians or the Americans with a growing economy and with a few billions to spend in hard cash.....ALL objections will fade away!! Grow your economy and become a large customer with whom everyone wants to do business with!

 

[That Guy]

You sound desperate man. Try asking the Chinese or even the Britts or the Russians or the Americans with a growing economy and with a few billions to spend in hard cash.....ALL objections will fade away!! Grow your economy and become a large customer with whom everyone wants to do business with!

Not desperate at all, just passing on what I know of the PAF. The economy is one thing, and I acknowledge that it is pretty weak, but Pakistan has traditionally bought single engine fighters, and prefers to buy single engine fighters. Look at PAF's history, how many fighters can you name in the PAF that use twin engines? F-6, F-7 and what else....?

 

[Viper0011.]

Not desperate at all, just passing on what I know of the PAF. The economy is one thing, and I acknowledge that it is pretty weak, but Pakistan has traditionally bought single engine fighters, and prefers to buy single engine fighters. Look at PAF's history, how many fighters can you name in the PAF that use twin engines? F-6, F-7 and what else....?

Economy has always been the main thing. Due to which, a country like Pakistan can't afford to venture into more expensive to maintain jets, specifically the twin turbine ones. So if the economy if fixed and you guys grow your economy by 25% - 35% from where you are today and with a stable middle class and growing infrastructure, you can afford anything. That's just reality. if Malaysia wanted to, it can go and acquire 100 SU-30's or Rafales or the F-18's (depending upon who they like the most)....similarly, Turkey is another example. They actually BUILD F-16's and have been doing so for over two decades with a ton of other weapons.
So here's my two cents for you guys, quit being religion, party, cast and individual focused nation. Accept the new government, a new reality and go forward with democracy to create a new Pakistan. Get rid of terrorism and trust me, you'll be remembering this post 5-7 years from now thinking how right I was (or how wrong I was if you guys don't do what I am asking for). Affording 50-100 latest jets for any growing economy isn't that big of a deal

 

[That Guy]

Economy has always been the main thing. Due to which, a country like Pakistan can't afford to venture into more expensive to maintain jets, specifically the twin turbine ones. So if the economy if fixed and you guys grow your economy by 25% - 35% from where you are today and with a stable middle class and growing infrastructure, you can afford anything. That's just reality. if Malaysia wanted to, it can go and acquire 100 SU-30's or Rafales or the F-18's (depending upon who they like the most)....similarly, Turkey is another example. They actually BUILD F-16's and have been doing so for over two decades with a ton of other weapons.
So here's my two cents for you guys, quit being religion, party, cast and individual focused nation. Accept the new government, a new reality and go forward with democracy to create a new Pakistan. Get rid of terrorism and trust me, you'll be remembering this post 5-7 years from now thinking how right I was (or how wrong I was if you guys don't do what I am asking for). Affording 50-100 latest jets for any growing economy isn't that big of a deal

I don't think you actually read my comment, because you seem to be repeating your comment and ignoring my entire point.

Again, economy is one thing, but Pakistan wouldn't buy it even if it could. Otherwise, it would have bought the F-15 in the 80s back when Pakistan's economy was growing massively. It doesn't because it has no interest in twin engine air-crafts.

You also seem to think that your opinion is important and I can influence the entirety of Pakistan. Economic growth has nothing to do with the type of political system a nation has, Pakistan's massive growth under dictatorship proves that much.

 

[sancho]

Second, you are correct that the bigger J-11 doesn't offer anything that the Indians don't have. That wasn't my point, my point was.....does it 'equally' offer what India has? Or MORE than J-10?

No, it doesn't offer what India has, because the J11 is technically inferior to MKI. In BVR and long range missions it has advantages over J10, in WVR and for more importantly from PAFs point of view from the cost-effectivity point, J10 is superior.
However, since it's not available for exports and since none of them will be a game changer for PAF, saving the money for J31 is the only logical way to go.

 

[Viper0011.]

No, it doesn't offer what India has, because the J11 is technically inferior to MKI. In BVR and long range missions it has advantages over J10, in WVR and for more importantly from PAFs point of view from the cost-effectivity point, J10 is superior.
However, since it's not available for exports and since none of them will be a game changer for PAF, saving the money for J31 is the only logical way to go.

You guys keep repeating the SAME defensive speech the one I've seen above and many times on other posts. Only a blind person wouldn't know that J-11 would be better than J-10 and it's on par with the Super MKI if you include technologies used in J-16. Which Pakistan will get.
Also, let me be very straight here (unlike the Indian propaganda machine), if the Pakistanis wanted the J-11.....it WILL be made available. There is NO such thing as 'not available for export'. The executives will issue an executive decision to overwrite whatever policies they need to in case this becomes critical. Pakistan's main issue is the economy. Next, there is another option in about 5-8 years for the Pakistanis. The EFT....Saudia is becoming a partner in the manufacturing of that plane, meaning you'll see the tech transfer, and manufacturing to Saudia. Plus, it's investing billions in R&D in EFT program too. ALL on tech transfer based conditions. So, 5-8 or 10 years from now, Pakistan may be able to get EFT also. In fact, if they can grow their economy to 800 billion or 1 trillion in next 5 years (can happen if loyal people work hard), then spending 5-10 billion on jet's isn't even that big of a deal. J-31 is a game changer but you can't acquire it in 100's of numbers. JFT will be the work horse, specifically the block II and then J-11 (with J-16 tech) and the F-16's can form the mid-higher end tier. J-31 kept in 10 per squadron * 5 squadrons (50 total) can be kept dispersed across Pakistan for special purposes, safety and being able to respond from different places in case a special operations need comes.

 

[sancho]

You guys keep repeating the SAME defensive speech the one I've seen above and many times on other posts. Only a blind person wouldn't know that J-11 would be better than J-10 and it's on par with the Super MKI if you include technologies used in J-16.

LOL, only because you post your believes/wishes above facts and the reality, which is why most of your post have no value. Even Chinese reports said, that J10 faired very well against Chinese Flankers in dogfights, which is not surprising, since the delta canard design offers advantages. And J11 has inferior radar, no canards or TVC, to make it at least equal to the current MKIs.

The EFT....Saudia is becoming a partner in the manufacturing of that plane, meaning you'll see the tech transfer, and manufacturing to Saudia.

Saudi is no partner of the EF, only an export customer. They only were meant to get an assembly line, to fit the kits produced in the UK, but not even that turned out to be reality. So any believe that they get any useful ToT is completely baseless, let alone that have any invlovement in the decision making of EF sales.

 

[Munir]

Saudi is as much partner in Typhoon as India is with MKI or PAKFA.

 

[Viper0011.]

LOL, only because you post your believes/wishes above facts and the reality, which is why most of your post have no value. Even Chinese reports said, that J10 faired very well against Chinese Flankers in dogfights, which is not surprising, since the delta canard design offers advantages. And J11 has inferior radar, no canards or TVC, to make it at least equal to the current MKIs.


Saudi is no partner of the EF, only an export customer. They only were meant to get an assembly line, to fit the kits produced in the UK, but not even that turned out to be reality

Right. My posts have no value to the people like you who don't accept that there can be a challenge from anyone to India. But when China invades your land and sits many miles inside your territory....people like you, put their tale between their legs and talk about 'deplomacy' and to 'solve the Chinese invasion with talks'. But had this been Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Nepal or to some degree, Pakistan, you'd be moving your military like you guys are about to start WWIII. Speaks VOLUMES to the mentality

Back to the topic, J-10 fared well against the Flanker has nothing to do with J-10 being what the Pakistani need. THAT was my point. J-11 with J-16's avionics is what I am referring to (Pakistan ALWAYS gets custom avionics vs. the standard Chinese package). So before you stup$d reply due to my statement being against your interests, you need to re-read my post and understand what I am saying in the above line.
Last, my knowledge doesn't come from being a closed minded person or by reading up online. Saudi's ARE going to invest into EFT. Remember this and we'll talk in a couple of years when that becomes reality. And with manufacturing and R&D partly done in Saudi..... now you can run Indian propaganda mill as much as you'd like to. It doesn't matter to me. Silly posts don't make you look smarter or better. They just show how emotionally upset you get along with how defensive you get due to the reality presented in the post you are responding to

 

[Storm Force]

Saudí s partner in typhoon did i Miss something.