Cancelled Russian LFI Project Now JF-17 Fighter

[Sanchez]

Let's give a definition what Russia is to China: Energy, Energy and Natashas.

China learnt a lot from Russia. But FC-1/JF-17 was a project initiated by Americans as Super-7.

 

[Donatello]

We would be happy to know Pakistans Hand in this so called wonderful achievement Jf-17




The thread dosent question the airworthiness of this fighter..... The worthiness is clear when China is taking a long time to get it inducted into the PLAAF



With pleasure, open a different thread, we would certainly talk about it

I think there is one thread already open on LCA. The problem is there ain't much to talk about a plane that is no where near completion and battle ready.


About defending JF-17, i think i will leave that to our professionals at PAF.

Neither have you nor me have flown the JF-17 or F-16s. So we can't talk about it. But those who have, certainly raise it in high praise. You might wanna contact Sir Murad ( I hope he is fine now).

Pakistan is the only country in the world to operate JF-17s and F-16s side by side with the same pilots as test pilots and trainers. If there is anything that anyone else in the world would know about these two planes, i assume Indians would be the last to know.

Rest assured, feel free to bring in your non-nonsensical arguments that JF-17 is copy of this plane that plane..........and i will leave the thread.


Let the spamming begin!

 

[karan.1970]

No, because Pakistani engineers designed the aircraft with China and made a plane out of scratch, this includes R&D, and all the little tit bits that your talking about except for the engine, avionics and radar. Whereas Su-30 was designed, and manufactured solely by Russia, which was then exported to India after which india started to replace a few of its components with their own as they say as we do with our Mirage 3/5. India did not contribute in any way in the designing, what would be correct to say is that India just changed a few things in the aircraft for their specific needs before importing it. It was and is a purely Russian Design. foolishly optimistic question.

These are the kind of comments that derail a discussion.. but coming back to the point.. Are there any details of the the Pakistani engineers' role in this development from scratch considering the CAC had been working on this from 1985 with the help of a western collaborator and without it from 1991 (after being sanctioned by US) with Pakistan joining the project in 1995

Also on local production, I understand that the degree of indigenous manufacture is close to 50% and is expected to grow to 80% in 2010-11. Same is true with Su 30 where the indigenous manufacture is expected to reach 100% (including engine) in 2010

 

[cola]

You want to talk about India make new thread.

this is regarding the JF-17 ,

And

slander is not a counter argument.

Who cares what India does .This is about JF-17 so stick to topic.

You want to talk about India then make a new thread and I will join there.

despit writing so many line , still no reply to my question in single word

let me answer it now . How many fighters are Indian own design ? NONE all you guys have been doing is sticking togather the stuff that other countries gave you and making a plane out of them.

As far as thunder is concerned , of course we need Chinese help. its our first one and will take time for us to establish in this industry. still a loooong way to go

 

[gogbot]

despit writing so many line , still no reply to my question in single word

let me answer it now . How many fighters are Indian own design ? NONE all you guys have been doing is sticking togather the stuff that other countries gave you and making a plane out of them.

As far as thunder is concerned , of course we need Chinese help. its our first one and will take time for us to establish in this industry. still a loooong way to go

You have been reported for off topic posts.

If you really wanted to discuss this , you should have made a new thread like i suggested.

Being new to the forum you should obey the forum rules.

 

[arslan_treen]

There is no point in discussing where and who helped in making of Jf 17 , it would have been if it was a failed Project but luckily it wasn't so its like beating a dead horse , Now according to all Paf and Mod professional here is the life cycle of Jf 17
1) SABRE 2 GETS INITIATED ( CANCLED)
2) SUPER 7 GET STARTED (GETS IN TO TROUBLE BECAUSE OF SANCTIONS)
3) ALL ABOVE COME TOGETHER TO FORM FC 1 1995 Pakistan joins in and it becomes (Jf 17 ).
now its funny how people think that Pakistan did not had any thing to do with these programmes as all three were actually initiated for PAF and Paf always configure its own Planes specially when it come to Chinese Planes , (F7 PG).
coming to the main discussion none of the above have any thing to do with Russian except for the Engine of Jf 17 , infact the first 2 were started by American firms to meet requirement of Paf and Chinese Air force .
Now here is the what is the official stance of all involved parties if some geek Blogger comes up with his own Dreamy stories to earn some Dollars let him be ,every man has to earn living .

 

[WAQAS119]

And yes, We are dejected In waiting for Our aircraft, but at the same time proud of it that LCA is Ours

Don't make me laugh.... LCA is an aircraft??? indian indiginous???
I think you are living in dreams.. Dassault is not a indian company which has done all the major work on LCA.

 

[democracyspeaks]

each and every fighter aircraft is in someway a copy of other aircrafts no big deal in that.
Wehter JF-17 is a copy or not dosent matter.

But I fail to understand what is pakistan's contribution to the project.
As far as I know Pakistani Aeronautical Complex is gonna provide post-sale service & maintenance, as well as the production of some parts for the aircraft in Pakistan.

Now in JF-17 which part is built and designed from scratch by PAC ?

The link I am gonna give also says the samething.

FC-1 (JF-17 Thunder) Multirole Fighter Aircraft - SinoDefence.com

It will be nice if some pakistani member points out that these are the parts designed and built from scratch by PAC engineers cause regarding LCA we can easily tell which part is being built by India and which are the parts which are imported or jointly build.

 

[Join]

Don't make me laugh.... LCA is an aircraft??? indian indiginous???
I think you are living in dreams.. Dassault is not a indian company which has done all the major work on LCA.

And what has Dassault done for LCA??? Since u have said it, u must also be able to tell what have they done in LCA?? And If I prove you that LCA is indigenous, Would You have the guts to prove Jf-17 is yours??

 

[karan.1970]

each and every fighter aircraft is in someway a copy of other aircrafts no big deal in that.
Wehter JF-17 is a copy or not dosent matter.

But I fail to understand what is pakistan's contribution to the project.
As far as I know Pakistani Aeronautical Complex is gonna provide post-sale service & maintenance, as well as the production of some parts for the aircraft in Pakistan.

Now in JF-17 which part is built and designed from scratch by PAC ?

The link I am gonna give also says the samething.

FC-1 (JF-17 Thunder) Multirole Fighter Aircraft - SinoDefence.com

It will be nice if some pakistani member points out that these are the parts designed and built from scratch by PAC engineers cause regarding LCA we can easily tell which part is being built by India and which are the parts which are imported or jointly build.

From the site

The FC-1 (Fighter China-1) Xiaolong is the result of a joint Sino-Pakistani development programme that started in 1999, with each side contributing 50% of the total development cost. Chengdu Aircraft Corporation (CAC) of China is the prime contractor for aircraft development and manufacture, while Pakistani Aeronautical Complex (PAC) is the main partner responsible for post-sale service and maintenance, as well as the production of some parts for the aircraft in Pakistan. The aircraft was designed by Chengdu Aircraft Design Institute (611 Institute). Russia supplied its Klimov RD-93 turbofan jet engine for the aircraft.

The FC-1 traces its origin to the Super-7 fighter programme, a joint Chengdu-Grumman development project worth US$500 million to upgrade the Chinese J-7 (MiG-21) fighter. Proposed upgrades included removing the fighter's nose air intake and replacing it with a ‘solid’ nose with two lateral air intakes, as well as upgrading the fighter with Western-made avionics and engine. The development agreement was signed in 1986, but the programme was cancelled in 1990, in the wake of the cooling political relations between China and the West, as well as in response to a 40% increase in the cost of the project.

Chengdu continued the Super-7 project independently and re-branded the design as FC-1. In 1999, China and Pakistan concluded a joint development and production agreement to co-develop the FC-1 fighter. Under the agreement, the programme was to be jointly funded by the China Aviation Import and Export Corporation (CATIC) and Pakistan, each with 50% stake of the joint venture. The total cost of the development programme was estimated to be US$150 million. Russian Mikoyan Aero-Science Production Group (MASPG) reportedly provided some assistance in the development of the aircraft

 

[Mani2020]

Now.

What is FC-20? why so many names for one plane? Is there FC-19?

Fc-20 is not a designation for jf-17 rather its a designation of a special variant of j-10 (which by the way is a totaly different aircraft) which is customized according to PAF needs ,only PAF will have that version or may b China too

What are the foreign systems (non-chinese?) in JF-17 inducted in PAF?

Apart form engine currently all systems are either chinese or Pakistani made but the later variants will have some avionics from other countries like it may have Vixen radar from italy

Is export version FC-1 or FC-20?

As i already told that fc-20 is completely a different aircraft

JF-17 if Pakistan exports, right?

both countries will export it and the export designation will be jf-17

 

[Cheetah786]

And what has Dassault done for LCA??? Since u have said it, u must also be able to tell what have they done in LCA?? And If I prove you that LCA is indigenous, Would You have the guts to prove Jf-17 is yours??

Please go ahead and prove it as you seems to have the guts to prove it so go ahead and prove it.


Dassault wins Indian LCA contract BANGALORE Dassault-Breguet has been selected to assist the Indian Aeronautical Development Authority (IADA) in the design and manufacture of a new Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) with the prototype's first flight scheduled in 1990.An official statement is expected soon.

Thirty top-flight engineers from Dassault-Breguet are due in India shortly to act as technical advisers to IADA in charge of the LCA programme.The aircraft,currently in the project definition stage, is to be a single-seat single-engine design with a 23,0001b maximum takeoff weight and a delta-winglayout. Service entry of the 12-5 tonne air superiority/ground attack LCA is targeted for 1994, with about 200 required to replace the MiG-21 Fishbeds and HAL Ajeets in the Indian Air Force.

The Indian government has been seeking technical assistance from American and European manufacturers for the LCA programme, and a fierce competition has raged among Lockheed, Grumman and Northrop as well as British Aerospace, MBB, Dornier, and Dassault- Breguet. Finally, Dassault- Breguet was chosen for the LCA programme and won a $100 million technical cooperation contract with India's Aeronautical Development Authority.

Dassault-Breguet will assist the Indians in the design and systems integration ' of the aircraft. LCA prototypes will be powered by General Electric F404 engines. The first of 11 GE F404-F2J3 turbofans purchased from the United States in 1986 was delivered earlier this year in preparation for the prototype's first flight.

But the French are hoping that the Indian government will, in due course, adopt Snecma's new M88 Mkll fighter engine now under development for the Dassault- Breguet Rafale combataircraft. The LCA's multifunction radar will be designed and developed by an Indian electronics company and produced in India.(In 1993,Lockheed Martin was selected to partner ADA in developing the Tejas’ high-tech flight control system (FCS).

Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) is going ahead with plans for the production of the LCA which will have composite structures and fly-bywire control systems.The French-Indian LCA technical co-operation agreement in no way prejudges the decision which the New Delhi Government is due to take early next year on the selection of a trainer and tactical support aircraft to be purchased abroad and later assembled in India.

The British Aerospace Hawk and the Dassault- Breguet/Dornier Alpha Jet are competing for this programme.The Indian Government needs 83 such aircraft —75 for the Indian Air Force and eight for the Indian Navy.Following up its LCA success, Dassault-Breguet is going all out to win the trainer deal, too. This latest Indian contract comes as a shot in the arm for Dassault-Breguet which is going through a period of great economic down turn.



Anybody starting a Topic with dumypedia as a source needs to have their heads examined.

 

[Icarus]

So then to my original point.. Isn't Pakistan's role in JF 17 similar to India's in SU30 MKi, where India was involved from start in development of this variant of Su 30 and also supplies avionics as well to the plane. Like JF 17, the Su 30 MKi is manufactured within India and if i understand right, this year will see even the engine getting fabricated within India only...

Basically, the difference between Pakistan and India's role in the development of their respective aircrafts is that Pakistan was involved with the FC-1 programme from the beginning whereas India was involved in the production of a variant of an aircraft already in production.
Services provided by both countries to their respective programmes are more or less the same.
Another difference is that, according to my information, the MKI are built by HAL with kits provided by Russia, We at Kamra build the whole aircraft there, although as I stated before, Avionics, Radar and Engine are brought from China, but that is only for the time being.
After the first fifty or so aircrafts, western systems will be adopted to improve the aircrafts capabilities, after the French Deal met a halt, the ASES system from Italy is being considered as a good alternative.
Structurally the aircraft will see changes as the frame will incorporate more composite materials and efforts will be made to reduce the radar cross section of the aircraft, the engine is also set to be changed, the new WS-13 or RD-93B engines will also be given TVN(Thrust Vectoring Nozzles) to improve manoeuvrability. These upgrades will make the aircraft a 4.5++ system.
So basically the JF-17 you see today is a mere prototype.

 

[Crypto]

We all know how authentic Wikipedia is? every Tom, Dick and Harry can go about editing pages and adding crap.

list here one true authentic link about JF-17's relevance to LFI ??? anyone???
JF-17 was derived from super 7 project and the original design has changed/improved over the time. There is a huge difference between copying and taking something as a base and than work on it to get a totally different thing.

Take the case of LCA! it was not invented from a clean slate like JF-17 and uses existing designs as base.

 

[Icarus]

He meant actual components and systems

Like the fly by wire systems

Mission computer

the parts used in the plane.

Landing gear

Ejection seat

etc

the actual bits and pieces of the plane , more then just the air frame

Oh..........I see, yeah the frame, outer skin, wiring and electrical systems(non-computer related), landing gear, gear box, etc.
Like I said, basically all the non-avionic stuff.
The ejection seats are American, Martin Baker MK 16-LE.