Can Quantum Physics and Observer Effect prove the existence of God ?

[Hamza913]

I will leave that up to future science.


Evidences are irrelevant? Since when?

When was the last time police have directly witnessed a murder? By that I mean either was at the scene or a video camera was in play. That happens often enough in the movies and TV, right? We convict people of murder, embezzlement, lying, and assorted crime even though most of the time, we did not witness the deeds. Evidences matter.


Plenty of people have. Are we heading over the Moon landing hoax territory?


Sorry, but there are no evidences, let alone proof for God. A proof is usually a chain of evidences and some arguments for those evidences.

Most of us have never been to the Moon, and yet, we know more about the Moon than we do of God. We know less about the depths of the oceans than we do of God, and yet, we have more evidences of life in those depths than we do of God. Have you met your president? Sorry, but seeing him/her on TV does not qualify. So unless you meet your president face to face, he/she does not exist. Is that how you want to live your life?

You don't need future science, modern day science is more than capable of explaining that interstellar travel simply isn't feasible unless you break the laws of physics.

I'm not saying all evidence is irrelevant, I'm saying as per your standard of needing to see it to believe it, they are irrelevant.

There is evidence for God and Islam, don't bother making such odd claims if you are unwilling to check the sources I've previously listed.

 

[YeBeWarned]

Friend, firstly dont rely on youtube for seeking divine answers.

you miss the point , but never mind

Friend, firstly dont rely on youtube for seeking divine answers.

you miss the point , but never mind

@gambit I have an honest question to you and others who demand a fair Evidence about existence of God, What kind of Prove or evidence will be accepted by you or the Scientific community to agree that God Exists ?

God can not present himself as a Man or something that we believe he created .. so technically saying he can't be something he created himself , he cant be just put into some Mathematical equation or Physics Formula .. Despite Science been Advance there is a visible disagreements among the Scientist on many occasion, Multiverse theory is one of the many examples .

You can not expect God to wink back with a Giant Eye he might have, when you are observing Universe from Hubble right ? Mankind has no ability Today on near future to travel physical to the edge of Universe to make a " verifiable claim " as per you that what is on the other side ..

so What kind of evidence will you accept in order for God to prove his existence, and if you agree to a certain evidence than what if others don't Agree on it ? so lets says 1 Billion people agree to a certain evidence but what about other 6 Billions ? does God have to keep changing his strategy to prove his existence to insignificant creation that he created ? ( Science says that i don't dont ) ..

 

[gambit]

@gambit I have an honest question to you and others who demand a fair Evidence about existence of God, What kind of Prove or evidence will be accepted by you or the Scientific community to agree that God Exists ?

A 'proof' is an argument that is based upon a chain of evidences that are accompanied by their arguments. Essentially, a 'proof' is a summation. So let us get that out of the way.

God can not present himself as a Man or something that we believe he created .. so technically saying he can't be something he created himself , he cant be just put into some Mathematical equation or Physics Formula .. Despite Science been Advance there is a visible disagreements among the Scientist on many occasion, Multiverse theory is one of the many examples .

Why not -- to all of them? Jesus is a human manifestation of God. Jesus is God as well as an agent of God. But never mind the Jesus method.

God must understand that as Man progresses, Man will demand proof of God's existence as defined by the increasing sophistication of evidentiary arguments, meaning Man no longer relies on hearsay but on scientific methods. God can just simply appear and declare Old Testament style 'I Am' and be done with it. The Christians are hilarious about images of Jesus on ordinary objects and of statues of Mother Mary and various saints 'weeping'. The best that God can do is appear on a potato chip?

https://www.twincities.com/2012/04/08/jesus-image-in-a-potato-chip-newport-woman-says/

The New Testament is filled with demands for evidences, such as The Epistles of James famous for faith without works. What is 'works' if not evidences? You tell me you are a charitable person? Prove it. How much you give to the poor. How much volunteering do you do? How much mentoring to children? Etc...Etc...Am not asking for you to be falsely 'humble' by telling me these things. What I asked are rhetorical. You are supposed to be charitable -- silently.

As for me, US laws says I can use my donations to charity to reduce my tax burdens. The law is meant to encourage charity. I do not do that. For me, using charity to reduce my taxes negate the philosophical idea of being charitable in the first place. So throughout the tax yr I give to various charities and say nothing about them. St. Jude Children's Hospital and the American Cancer Society are my major donations.

But relevant to this discussion is that even God -- via His apostles and assorted believers -- demands that we use our God given brains. God want us to ask for evidences even when it does not involve science as in faith without works (evidences), and that means God cannot expect us to exempt Him from the scientific methods we invented to explore Nature and existence.

Does not Islam demands evidences?

https://www.islamreligion.com/articles/1165/viewall/grace-faith-and-works/

Works then are considered what is apparent above the surface, such as the trunk and branches of the trees.

What is 'works' if not evidences?

So what kind of evidences can God give as indisputable proof of Him? Certainly not His image on a potato chip.

If God is too busy elsewhere in the multiverse to answer Man in this universe, then both God and Man must be content to verify the existence of God in scientific ways. So for now, let us use quantum physics to first prove the existence of the soul, then we can move on from there.

 

[YeBeWarned]

A 'proof' is an argument that is based upon a chain of evidences that are accompanied by their arguments. Essentially, a 'proof' is a summation. So let us get that out of the way.

The point is what Kind of Evidence ? Material , physical argumentative or logical hell even rational ? I cant say about other faith but Islam ..
If you demand a Material Evidence Quran can be considered as one .. there are multiple ways to prove that Quran is not from a man and can't be from a Man .. so a book that has divine nature means comes from a Divine being .

If you demand Physical Evidence like God appear to people , that is ill-logical to me, because everyone of us than want to see God and he has to appear to all of us to prove himself . If i was God i would LOL on such demand ..

If you you demand Logical than there multiple Ways which Dsr478 has given , you can use Logic to come to conclusions , which is origin on Universe etc

OK so you says, Jesus is God but also Agent of God, isn't that Self contradictory Statement ? God is God , A being without Gender, form , body , Physical needs etc .. the Concept of God in Islam is quite hard yet easy to understand .

If you have ever get chance to Read Quran, the book engage with your specific argument that Didn't God know that man will ask for evidence, he did that is why on multiple Occasion God says things like , Have they not see ? God often uses his creation so human can reflect on them to see who created them and how ? I think from a God prospectus that is very simple way to engage human .


What everyone here misses, that in the OP i posted a Video about a well proven phenomenon " Observer Effect " , where Particles are acting/behaving differently when they are been observed ..and the argument i used that there might be possibility that Some sort of power or being outside out known universe is observing everything which creates a chain effect for particles to act/behave in a way we see it on earth .. so far no one even touch that part which is weird ..

 

[gambit]

The point is what Kind of Evidence ? Material , physical argumentative or logical hell even rational ?

How about direct evidence?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_evidence

In a court of law, direct evidences are fingerprints, a video, or witnesses at the scene. The demand for direct evidences under scientific examinations is the inevitable result of Man's increasing technological sophistication and reasoning. It is no longer 'good enough' to see burning bushes, testimonies about visions, or hearing voices in one's head.

A person charged with violating a social norm -- aka an alleged criminal -- will work hardest to hide evidences, produce arguments designed to induce doubts, and cast aspersions on witnesses, in order to eliminate the label 'criminal' from his character.

God is not a criminal. He want Man to believe in Him. God can eliminate all doubts of Him in the world by showing Himself or his powers in ways that the science of Man are satisfied.

I cant say about other faith but Islam ..
If you demand a Material Evidence Quran can be considered as one .. there are multiple ways to prove that Quran is not from a man and can't be from a Man .. so a book that has divine nature means comes from a Divine being .

Sorry, but that is not good enough. The same arguments have been made for all sorts of books, scrolls, or visions. The arguments are circular and self referential.

If you demand Physical Evidence like God appear to people , that is ill-logical to me, because everyone of us than want to see God and he has to appear to all of us to prove himself . If i was God i would LOL on such demand ..

Not illogical at all. But why not God appear to all the billions simultaneously? All of us see the same physical manifestation of Him. Note I used the singular and not plural of 'manifestation'. Today, we have debate on what God looks like. A white guy, black, or mix. Which? If God created the universe and the laws that we live under, why would it be beyond God's capability to appear to all of us simultaneously? A mass hallucination that spans the world? Not likely. Every scientist would see the same manifestation of God as would every politician, every engineer, every 'holy' person of every religion, and even to the children.

It would be eminently logical.

OK so you says, Jesus is God but also Agent of God, isn't that Self contradictory Statement ? God is God , A being without Gender, form , body , Physical needs etc .. the Concept of God in Islam is quite hard yet easy to understand .

Not contradictory at all. One of the more popular arguments by the Christian about Jesus is that of water, which can be in three forms: liquid, solid, and gas.

It seems like it is we who are placing limits on God in order to continually support the mystery of God. I disagree with the theologians who insists that God must remain a mystery because that argument is itself a limitation placed upon God. A mysterious God serves self interests. A mysterious God is partisan and tribal. A mysterious God is the ONLY reason why there are religious strife throughout history.

If you have ever get chance to Read Quran, the book engage with your specific argument that Didn't God know that man will ask for evidence, he did that is why on multiple Occasion God says things like , Have they not see ? God often uses his creation so human can reflect on them to see who created them and how ? I think from a God prospectus that is very simple way to engage human .

It is not only The Quran that says so, but also The Bible, and just about every 'holy man' out there who wishes to impart any measure of religious sanctity to his scriptures.

What everyone here misses, that in the OP i posted a Video about a well proven phenomenon " Observer Effect " , where Particles are acting/behaving differently when they are been observed ..and the argument i used that there might be possibility that Some sort of power or being outside out known universe is observing everything which creates a chain effect for particles to act/behave in a way we see it on earth .. so far no one even touch that part which is weird ..

If our investigations into Nature affects God, then God is not god.

 

[YeBeWarned]

How about direct evidence?

You know its not logical .. what i am getting from your post that You have no idea what kind of evidence will convince you, you will never accept any evidence other than that fits your ego .. no offense

Sorry, but that is not good enough. The same arguments have been made for all sorts of books, scrolls, or visions. The arguments are circular and self referential.

Of course the book is not enough but its one of the many evidence that one can present .. Materialistic Evidence

Not illogical at all. But why not God appear to all the billions simultaneously? All of us see the same physical manifestation of Him. Note I used the singular and not plural of 'manifestation'. Today, we have debate on what God looks like. A white guy, black, or mix. Which? If God created the universe and the laws that we live under, why would it be beyond God's capability to appear to all of us simultaneously? A mass hallucination that spans the world? Not likely. Every scientist would see the same manifestation of God as would every politician, every engineer, every 'holy' person of every religion, and even to the children.

It would be eminently logical.

It is ill-logical my friend, imagine if i ask you to come to Pakistan just to prove that you exist, than some African member ask you to visit him to prove him that you exist .. how God should do that , Appear to Billions ? like a giant face on Sky ? and again if he appear to billion what if later other Billion demand another evidence and the cycle goes on .. you are just talking like a 6 year old Atheist .. your argument base on as if God looks like a man , that is why you say black white or mix ,but God can't be man its just beneath him to put his spirit into a body of a man that has limitations and nature calls like using toilet , eating , and feeling tired .
rest of your argument is childish , i expect better.

Not contradictory at all. One of the more popular arguments by the Christian about Jesus is that of water, which can be in three forms: liquid, solid, and gas.

There is a 4th form of water is well

It seems like it is we who are placing limits on God in order to continually support the mystery of God. I disagree with the theologians who insists that God must remain a mystery because that argument is itself a limitation placed upon God. A mysterious God serves self interests. A mysterious God is partisan and tribal. A mysterious God is the ONLY reason why there are religious strife throughout history.

There is no limit on God my friend, the only limit i see in your thinking and ability to see beyond 6 feet .. as man i would not entertain such childish calls for evidence than he is God ..

It is not only The Quran that says so, but also The Bible, and just about every 'holy man' out there who wishes to impart any measure of religious sanctity to his scriptures.

That once again shows that you have very limited knowledge my friend, the way Quran engages with the reader , bible doesn't .. Bible mostly contains the word of humans like Peter , mark , john etc who are recreating the whole thing after 200 years of Jesus death .. how many Verses were actually there that were directly spoken by Jesus himself ? very limited ..

If our investigations into Nature affects God, then God is not god.

You investigation in nature doesn't effect God but it highlight God..

Some of the Golden verses from Quran which explain this whole situation ..

They [think to] deceive Allah and those who believe, but they deceive not except themselves and perceive [it] not. (2:9)

Deaf, dumb and blind - so they will not return [to the right path]. (2:18)

 

[gambit]

You know its not logical .. what i am getting from your post that You have no idea what kind of evidence will convince you, you will never accept any evidence other than that fits your ego .. no offense

Scientific evidence will convince me.

Of course the book is not enough but its one of the many evidence that one can present .. Materialistic Evidence

At best, we can assign The Bible and The Quran as circumstantial evidences, which are not enough.

It is ill-logical my friend, imagine if i ask you to come to Pakistan just to prove that you exist, than some African member ask you to visit him to prove him that you exist ..

You are interacting with me. Not only you, but so do dozens of forum members at different times under different subjects. The key word here is 'interacting', meaning our relationship is two-way. Praying is one-way. This means I do not need to meet you face to face for both of us to believe each other exists.

how God should do that , Appear to Billions ?

All at once. Why not?

...like a giant face on Sky ?

Why not?

...you are just talking like a 6 year old Atheist ..

No, like a rationalist.

your argument base on as if God looks like a man , that is why you say black white or mix ,but God can't be man its just beneath him to put his spirit into a body of a man that has limitations and nature calls like using toilet , eating , and feeling tired .

Why not? You asked me for what kind of evidences so I gave you.

How many of the billions in the world would like to see a manifestation of God that they can relate to and understand? So why not a man or a woman?

Explain to me why is it impossible for God to appear in any form He/She want?

There is no limit on God my friend, the only limit i see in your thinking and ability to see beyond 6 feet .. as man i would not entertain such childish calls for evidence than he is God ..

The way I see it, the fact that you insists that a book written by men is good enough to be indisputable 'proof' for God makes YOU the childish one.

That once again shows that you have very limited knowledge my friend, the way Quran engages with the reader , bible doesn't .. Bible mostly contains the word of humans like Peter , mark , john etc who are recreating the whole thing after 200 years of Jesus death .. how many Verses were actually there that were directly spoken by Jesus himself ? very limited ..

That goes to show the limitations of these books. God can dispel all doubts by bypassing all hearsay, which includes books, by showing Himself/Herself to everyone at once and personally.

You investigation in nature doesn't effect God but it highlight God..

This is religious fervor talking, not rationality.

 

[timmy_area51]

No ! as Einstein stole most of his ideas when he was an inspector in a swiss patent office . some historians narrowed down his e=mc2 to either an italian industrialist or his russian wife .

 

[YeBeWarned]

Scientific evidence will convince me.

And i ask you what sort of Scientific Evidence ? Mathematical equation or Physics ? there are things in Universe which you prove with science .. just some hypothesis

At best, we can assign The Bible and The Quran as circumstantial evidences, which are not enough.

Obviously its not enough , but it is some sort of Evidence , for some its substantial and worthy enough to believe .

You are interacting with me. Not only you, but so do dozens of forum members at different times under different subjects. The key word here is 'interacting', meaning our relationship is two-way. Praying is one-way. This means I do not need to meet you face to face for both of us to believe each other exists.

Again it doesn't prove you exist , You could be a Robot , or AI .. I am using your logic against you , Unless i see with my eyes ( Physical Evidence ) i refuse to accept that you exist , all other evidences can be reproduced easily ..

All at once. Why not?

Because that is not realistic, if he Appear today than it is fair to Ask the God why he choose to show up to this Generation and not the Generation before ? and what if after 200 years the Generation of that time refused that they will believe that God Appear to previous Generation and they demand themselves that God appear to them .. Its not Realistic my friend , you gotta come with a better solution .

Why not?

Simple Answer, God has no Physical Face ..

No, like a rationalist.

Nah, i have talked to Rationalist before, their arguments were different .

Why not? You asked me for what kind of evidences so I gave you.

Its simple and i keep saying the same thing , God can not be a man its just not natural .. Can you fit 7 Billion people in one house ? NO .. why because its physically not possible nor realistic .. God Can not be something which he himself Created ... and i just explain why he cant be a Man to appear because it will create more confusion and Questions than it will solve or give answers ..

How many of the billions in the world would like to see a manifestation of God that they can relate to and understand? So why not a man or a woman?

How many ? you tell me ? Christian want to see God ? I thought they already have a Manifestation of God ? A white man with blue eyes and blond hair ... ( Western Jesus ) , Jews have no intention and understands so they don't demand to see God, Nor does Muslims .. we are good in Abrahmic Religions .
Hindu's have Idols and Statues representing their Gods, so they are God, so does Buddist .. so technically only Agnostic or Atheist demand God to appear or show himself in some Physical form , and lets be honest , even after that, not All will be satisfied ..

Explain to me why is it impossible for God to appear in any form He/She want?

I already did, Twice or thrice i think ..

The way I see it, the fact that you insists that a book written by men is good enough to be indisputable 'proof' for God makes YOU the childish one.

I would like to see your evidence for your claim that Quran is written by a Man ? or just a claim by you ?

That goes to show the limitations of these books. God can dispel all doubts by bypassing all hearsay, which includes books, by showing Himself/Herself to everyone at once and personally.

Books are limited in their message , if you are expecting Speed of Light or properties of Sun in a Religious books than i can't help you my friend .. Religious books and their messages are limited for people how to a successful life and some other odd issues which God refers . There is no heresy my Friend , We 1.5 Billion Muslims have no demand for God to appear to us , and know and understand why he keep a veil between us and himself . its very well documented in our Book .. We don't need to see Oxygen to inhale to live, we just did

This is religious fervor talking, not rationality.

How ? So far all i asked you to bring some realistic evidence you demand to believe in God ? can you say that Evidence that can convince you to believe in God will also Convince other Atheist or Agnostic around the world to believe ? what if they reject ? ..

 

[TMA]

If a man does NOT want to believe, then even if an Angel came and shook that man, he would still not believe
...

 

[LASER1]

lol.. you come here and make comments without investigating anything. Why don't you go and search for Time Dilation on youtube and theory of relativity. Do some research and you'll know that all this is already being used in your daily life. The GPS system in your mobile is already using this "utter BS" stuff to pin point your location.

Man, I know the theory of relativity. It's a theory. There are theories on tachyons too. Anyway I'm not going to discuss in detail on that I'll stick to the movie, which is selling an ideal situation. Where one can travel through wormholes, make it through interstellar orbit, slingshot around a giant black hole and fall into one and survive in one piece. I can agree on all that but for the part in millers planet, an interesting planet close to the gargantuan where they enter for an hour and comes out 25 years young (simple terms). For such a time dialation to occur the entire planet must be moving at 99.999..% speed of light. Now that's pushing a bit far. Also, they landed in Miller's planet in a shallow water generating huge tsunami waves by water rising up from below.

And don't talk stupidity, the GPS system which pinpoint my location has nothing to do with millers planet and it's gigantic wave.

 

[gambit]

And i ask you what sort of Scientific Evidence ? Mathematical equation or Physics ? there are things in Universe which you prove with science .. just some hypothesis

How about in person? That would be scientific enough.

Again it doesn't prove you exist , You could be a Robot , or AI .. I am using your logic against you , Unless i see with my eyes ( Physical Evidence ) i refuse to accept that you exist , all other evidences can be reproduced easily ..

Sure...You can argue that, but no one would buy it. You are stretching the current state of AI/robotics development. But if I may...I can use your demand on God. For all we know, God is an alien with far superior technology.

Because that is not realistic, if he Appear today than it is fair to Ask the God why he choose to show up to this Generation and not the Generation before ? and what if after 200 years the Generation of that time refused that they will believe that God Appear to previous Generation and they demand themselves that God appear to them .. Its not Realistic my friend , you gotta come with a better solution .

It is realistic. The highlighted is a fair question on your part.

If we stay with the three major Abrahamic religions, we see God appeared, in various guises and methods, because He felt the need to do so. He did it with several generations. God did with Noah to command Noah to build the ark. God appeared to Paul, someone who was not of the original Twelve Apostles, on the road. Paul, used to be Saul, was a persecutor of Christians. God appeared to Muhamad in a cave.

So while your question is a fair one, it is not a credible one.

Simple Answer, God has no Physical Face ..

God Can not be something which he himself Created

How do you know? Again, you are imposing limits on God.

...and i just explain why he cant be a Man to appear because it will create more confusion and Questions than it will solve or give answers ..

Not really. This time, you are imposing limits on Man. You are basically saying we are too stupid to recognize an event we cannot explain but are able to examine.

How many ? you tell me ? Christian want to see God ? I thought they already have a Manifestation of God ? A white man with blue eyes and blond hair ... ( Western Jesus ) , Jews have no intention and understands so they don't demand to see God, Nor does Muslims .. we are good in Abrahmic Religions .
Hindu's have Idols and Statues representing their Gods, so they are God, so does Buddist .. so technically only Agnostic or Atheist demand God to appear or show himself in some Physical form , and lets be honest , even after that, not All will be satisfied ..

The current variations of God proved my point. God can chose to appear in any form he want and declare that every versions to date are wrong. Simple as that.

I would like to see your evidence for your claim that Quran is written by a Man ? or just a claim by you ?

There is no proof that The Quran or The Bible or in the case of the Church of Latter Day Saints with their Gold Plates that these were produced by God. It is not my burden to disprove but your burden to support your claim that The Quran was divinely produced. So far, the fact that The Quran is NOT accepted as the universal and final 'word of God' is proof that any argument to that effect have been unconvincing, as in insufficient evidences.

We don't need to see Oxygen to inhale to live, we just did

That does not mean we do not need to explore the properties of oxygen for other purposes. We do have that need as our technology proved that need.

How ? So far all i asked you to bring some realistic evidence you demand to believe in God ? can you say that Evidence that can convince you to believe in God will also Convince other Atheist or Agnostic around the world to believe ? what if they reject ? ..

If God subject Himself to examinations, or at least subject His powers and their effects to examinations, then everyone will be compel to believe.

Biblical legend has it that Jesus turned water into wine. Then all God have to do is turn a quantity of water into wine and do it under strict laboratory conditions.