Can Pakistan Be Secular?

[RobbieS]

Accepted.


I suspect that promoting Sikhism in Pakistan is seen more as a weapon against India (Amritsar being right up against the border and all) rather than an expression of genuine good will toward Sikhs.

That is largely a correct assessment and the Pakistani support to the Sikh militancy in the 80's is a testament to that.

 

[U-571]

Surprisingly, even though it was founded on the basis of one religion, I think it was desired to be a secular country by Jinnah. But I guess mid-way across their post-independence history they altered course and adopted a strictly Islamic identity.

waah ji waah kia logic hai

if pakistan was aiming to be a secular country why didnt it join the secular india in the first place. you said, founded on the basis of religion but islam and secularism are separate things.

 

[Kompromat]

Accepted.

What minorities? Looking at the demographics, it seems that most of them fled the country since independence. That can't speak well of how minorities are treated, can it?

We cant stop anyone from going abroad can we , you tell me why did Jews were transferd to Israel from US were the being prosecuted there ?
They chose to leave Pakistan & we have no issues with that , it does not depict what you are pointing out to.

I suspect that promoting Sikhism in Pakistan is seen more as a weapon against India (Amritsar being right up against the border and all) rather than an expression of genuine good will toward Sikhs.

All religions are treated fairly , and your speculation is wrong.

Category:Churches in Pakistan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Zia ordered the last Jewish synagogue in Karachi destroyed, to make way for a shopping plaza.

I am not a big Fan of Zia as i said before BTW there are few synagogues in Pakistan though there is no considerable Jewish community in Pakistan.

Pakistan's blasphemy laws are so tightly drawn and can be so strictly applied as to make non-Islamic worship difficult or impossible. If you believe religious observance is a choice and not a fate, then a logical corollary is that all religions promote, if not hate, than distaste of other religions. That is part of one's religious identity; if I didn't like Judaism best I would choose a different religion, yes? So I don't like Islam very much by comparison.

Neither its difficult nor impossible , your image is wrong about minorities in Pakistan.

Yet that belief, under Pakistan's blasphemy laws, could be seen as offensive, is that not so? Especially if someone on the street in Karachi asks me questions and I try to explain it to them. Jail might be the best fate I could hope for.

You speculate too Much , maybe you are not aware of the amount of debates in Pakistan & you wont be jailed for asking a question i am sure

There are things about secular "culture" not to like. Yet freedom of religion does not have to mean freedom from religion; you can have the first without giving up the second, and I think it can be done without blasphemy laws or mob rule.

There are goods and bads in every system , we are better of without secularism.

 

[RobbieS]

waah ji waah kia logic hai

if pakistan was aiming to be a secular country why didnt it join the secular india in the first place. you said, founded on the basis of religion but islam and secularism are separate things.

Thats what I was trying to understand Einstein - Difference between an Islamic country with rights for all minorities and a secular country. If you'd have cared to read the rest of my exchanges with Hillman you would have figured that out. Aiwen hi chatre na baneya karo...

 

[Solomon2]

why did Jews were transferd to Israel from US were the being prosecuted there ?

Perhaps 15% of America's Jews have emigrated to Israel. For most their purpose is to enjoy their ancestral homeland where Jews are in the majority, and/or they can adhere to religion more closely. They are willing to do this even though many know they will be less wealthy than in America. For many Jews there is a sweetness to Israel that is intensely attractive. And you don't have to apologize for being Jewish, as is so often the case elsewhere.

They chose to leave Pakistan & we have no issues with that , it does not depict what you are pointing out to. All religions are treated fairly , and your speculation is wrong.

98%+ of Pakistan's Jewish community departed, and you think that speaks well of Pakistan? Even when their private and communal property was seized without compensation?

You speculate too Much , maybe you are not aware of the amount of debates in Pakistan & you wont be jailed for asking a question i am sure

The danger is less in asking questions than in answering them. For answering and offending - and I can see no way to answer religious questions in detail without risking offense - I could be accused of blasphemy and jailed immediately, if I wasn't a victim of violence first.

There are goods and bads in every system , we are better of without secularism.

Have you listed the pros and cons, as you see it?

 

[Wounded Healer]

Pakistan is and always will be an Islamic country.

When Pakistan has a 95% Muslim population, then what is the need for us to become a secular state? India had to declare itself a secular nation as it had a vast population of Muslims, Sikhs and Christians etc. It would have been a disaster for India to declare itself a Hindu State with so many people of other faiths living there as well.

Now, as far as Islam is concerned, it gives almost the same amount of freedom to the non-muslims as do secular states. The only major difference being that a non-muslim cannot become a head of the state and that they cannot preach their religion openly. All other rules are the same, or atleast they should be.

Non-Muslims in Pakistan are not persecuted as the media would have you believe, they enjoy the same privileges that Muslims do. Yes, you may find a few incidences here and there caused by some mis-guided souls, but they are far better off then many minorities living in various countries around the world.

regards,

 

[TechLahore]

waah ji waah kia logic hai

if pakistan was aiming to be a secular country why didnt it join the secular india in the first place. you said, founded on the basis of religion but islam and secularism are separate things.

We have basically distorted history so completely that we now have ourselves forgotten what our genesis was...

Jinnah was fine with the Cabinet mission plan, so that tells you that he actually preferred a solution where muslim majority states could exist within secular India, just with a little more flexibility. Jinnah did not want the imposition of sharia in Pakistan. Quite the contrary, in fact, he pushed for the creation of Pakistan because Gandhi was arguing for Sanskrit to be taught in all schools on a mandatory basis, and for Hinduism/communalism making its way into the government and society of post-partition India.

Quaid-e-Azam did not want a situation whereby Muslims, as a minority, would have to live in a Hindu country. He asked Gandhi to shed communalism... over and over... and it didn't work. So Pakistan was created as a country where Muslims and followers of other religions could exercise their religion freely without fear of interference from the state. Not a state where sharia would be imposed on all.

 

[Solomon2]

When Pakistan has a 95% Muslim population, then what is the need for us to become a secular state?

Is Pakistan going to be a state primarily for Muslims, or is Pakistan an Islamic State with primarily Muslims in it? In the first, the State exists to serve the citizens; in the second, the citizens exist at the permission of the State, and there is some sort of religious test its citizens or nationals have to pass.

That's the bottom line.

as far as Islam is concerned, it gives almost the same amount of freedom to the non-muslims as do secular states

Read Pakistan's blasphemy laws. If I was a Jew or Christian in Pakistan I can not question any aspect of a Muslim's conduct, if that could lead to him being religiously offended. For the Ahmadiyya the situation is even worse. For Pakistan's Muslims it means being trapped in an ever more rigid and constrictive religious culture.

As I see it, the idea behind these laws is that in Pakistan a Muslim always has the right to feel good about himself compared to non-Muslims, no matter how well he or they actually behave. That is an enshrinement of blind religious prejudice and I find it quite repulsive. How Pakistan's muslims see it Black Blood has described: the culture gravitates more and more to just one view of Islam, the country battling over exactly what that is.

you may find a few incidences here and there caused by some mis-guided souls -

Enough to drive minorities out of the country. And all too often the persecution happened at the connivance of the state, without objection by the Muslim community, and with no communal responsibility or sense of regret afterward. The vanished minorities were not invited back, were they? Under such circumstances, who exactly are the "mis-guided souls" victims are supposed to blame and seek recompense from?

 

[U-571]

Quaid-e-Azam did not want a situation whereby Muslims, as a minority, would have to live in a Hindu country. He asked Gandhi to shed communalism... over and over... and it didn't work. So Pakistan was created as a country where Muslims and followers of other religions could exercise their religion freely without fear of interference from the state. Not a state where sharia would be imposed on all.

it was not merely quaid e azam who who wantd this or that, he was not a dictator, he was a chosen leader of the muslims, a political representative of all the muslims in india, quaid e azam just wanted the muslims to practice their religion and make their laws irrespective of any ideals and anything, some western warriors in our country justify the quaid e azam being secular by saying that he wanted the minorities to feel free to practice their religion, where as no muslim can deny the fact that in islam, minorities are treated as equals and fairly, the condition which muslims faced that time was a clear discrimination of hindu leaders against muslims, thus quaid guarenteed minorities, their wellness in this country so that they dont feel insecure(hindus being majority among minorities). muslims were naturally angered with what happened to them during the creation so he wanted to create a harmonious situation in the country, so the muslims dont fight the non muslims.

some people find similarities between kemal and quaid e azam, well its actually quite surprising, quaid if he admired kemalism, why he didnt turned urdu script into roman script, banned azan from mosques, prompted women to wear bikinis and western dresses, why he didnt chose to be a dectator rather being the chosen leader of sub continet muslims and the head of the party.

he wished liaquat ali khan to become the leader of the nation, and you can find quotes from him in which he declines any western system to be imposed in the country and appreciates an islamic system to be used in the country.

 

[Solomon2]

no muslim can deny the fact that in islam, minorities are treated as equals and fairly,

I don't know about Islam in general, but in Pakistan such a denial sounds like a prosecutable offense. ("Outraging religious feelings" at a minimum and maybe "defaming Prophet Mohammed" if Mohammed's example was cited and criticized.) So yeah, in Pakistan "no muslim can deny the fact" - upon pain of death! If not enforced strictly now, what prevents it from being enforced strictly in the future? Two or three generations of that and what remains of Islam in Pakistan?

 

[U-571]

I don't know about Islam in general, but in Pakistan such a denial sounds like a prosecutable offense. ("Outraging religious feelings" at a minimum and maybe "defaming Prophet Mohammed" if Mohammed's example was cited and criticized.) So yeah, in Pakistan "no muslim can deny the fact" - upon pain of death! If not enforced strictly now, what prevents it from being enforced strictly in the future? Two or three generations of that and what remains of Islam in Pakistan?

illeteracy is also wide spread in pakistan so yes many people are illeterate. even then minorities in pakistan are more safe than minorities in india, where minority consistes of a big portion. laws for minorities and muslims are same, but govt in corrupt, it fails to safe guard the minority just it fails other common pakistani.

the blasphemy laws should not be changed for it is also important aspect of an islamic society.

there is a story we muslims are taught which shows the respect of minorities among muslims, one night prophet abrahim(abraham) in lingering in the night when he sees a nonbeliever, prophet ibrahim was known for his hospitality, but for the non believer who is also hungry refuses to take him as a guest, allah speaks to him and say why has he refused that man, every human regardless of faith is created by him, when prophet realizes his mistake he quickly approaches that old person and says you are welcome, the old man is surprised and the prophe tells him the whole story. the old man nonbeliever is astonished and becomes a muslim.

the prophet muhammad(pbuh) was troubled by non muslims from mekkah, they forced him to leave mekkah, his beloved home town and killed many of his companions just because they followed what he made them believe, even attempts were made to kill him, he was treated unfairly, but still he forgave every person in makkah when his companions conquered it.

he made treaties with jews that they could live harmoniously with the muslims, provided they dont collaborate with the enemy, but in ghazwa khandak or tabuk, the jews of madina collaborate witht the enemies and finally prophet orders the culprits to be killed and askes others to leave.

 

[asq]

Solomon2.

Why are u so anti Pakistan.

Look at Israel today and compare with Pakistan about minorities. do i need to explain more in details.

todays pakistan is much more free and secular even though it is an Islamic stater, others should learn more aboy Islam and wahat it did for specially jews in Europe.
Do u remember Spanish inquisition. solomon.

No where in Muslim country any thing bad ever was done to minorities. and it will never be done.

Minorities left Pakistan on their own and were limited in 1947 as most populated areas by Muslims became Pakistan so it was how their are not very many minorites in Pakistan.

Now about jews leaving Pakistan and were not compensated is not true but are palistenian compensated when their land is taken.

So Slomon u should be the last person to alk about compensation and minorities.

Solomon if u really want to know the truth about jews leaving /Arab countires and Palistenians forced out, u should read this with an honest mind, u will be enlightened.

Israel’s Arab Jews: Refugees? P U L S E

 

[mikkix]

@Robbie s
I just want to tell you something really important as my indian(hindu) brothers dont know the real meaning of secularism as we muslims know cause we lived and spend 2000 years with christians and jews, and on that time there is group of people from christians and jews who started a campaign against any religion who believed in True God and on that Islam is a threat for them, this political voice in middle east and western countries appears since when Islam appears in the world, the political or blasphemous voice is to how to diminished islam from this world and for that purpose they started a campaign that there is no God or there is no need do worship god cause god is merciful so he will give his mercy to us whatever we we will do in this world, and there is also a campaign that we should lived free, means whatever we can do we will not give answers to anyone. The conspiracy continues till now.
Secularism means that we should lived free, we dont need to worship God, all of us should go to jannah so we dont need to accept God only humanity is important and for that purpose everyone has to work hard for humanity.
Why they want secularism because they want a world full of human robots who worked for them and dont worship any God or they if they believe in God then dont need to follow any paths which is described by God.
Islam is not a religion, islam is a deen means a code of conduct to live your life spiritually , physically, moraly, socially and economically.
In Islam every one enjoys whatever they believed in what religion.
A hindu, sikh, christian, jews and ethiest enjoys what they believed under Islam.
The meaning of secularism we just listen here is not what you think..Its a disguise,,who believes in it will fall.....

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Asq dont question solomon lol u ill be declared a hating anti semitie....lol solomon cant see the illegale settlements and armed jews who kill people attending prayers in a mosqu..........he never see when us president slams illegal settlements of israel.
He never sees any harm in bombing gaza with phospjorus and bombing and killing 1400 + people in 2 weeks?
He never sees preventing medicine and AID supplies to palastine as illegal.....
Why coz hes a jew........wat mopre can u except to the merchent of venice and his crew?

 

[Paksindhi]

With 95% muslim population, Pakistan is predominantly an Islamic country and is defined so by the constitution.

But certain privileges need to be given to religious minorities to follow their own religion of choice....which falls under the purview of Fundamental Rights : Freedom to profess religion (Constitution of Pakistan).

In India, Parsis who are merely 70,000 in population have their own laws of inheritance, marriage, adoption, etc... Even Hindus and Muslims have their own laws.

Bottomline is...any country whether Islamic or secular needs to protect the fundamental rights of its citizen at any cost.

GIVE ME 1 EXAMPLE OF HINDU-MUSLIM RIOT'S HAPPENING IN ISLAMIC PAKISTAN SINCE INDEPENDENCE.

I CAN GIVE U HUNDRED'S OF EXAMPLE'S OF THIS HAPPENING IN SECULAR INDIA SINCE INDEPENDENCE.