Can anyone tell me why India and Pakistan don’t get along?

[Rafi]

The IVC is on our land - the people are our ancestors, therefore it belongs to us, indians can go find their own history on indian land.

 

[KS]

Secondly when Indians say that Pakistani have no right of IVC because they are Muslim then what about Muslims and Christians of India?.

The point is Indians dont say you have no right to IVC because you are Muslims - but because you believe in the idealogy of Pakistan which says Islam is your identity and IVC was not Islam. Pakistan was formed in the name of Islam while India was not. SO that obviously excludes the Muslims and Christians of India.

Well said my friend. Pakistan was created burying the idols of race and regional prejudice and was created on the basis of an ideology, just as Jinnah had said

Thats the biggest bunch of idealistic gas I've seen.


And before you quote Ambedkar you should study on his opinions about Islam as well. There was a reason why he asked his followers to follow Buddhism and not Islam or Christianity

 

[Dubious]

The IVC is on our land - the people are our ancestors, therefore it belongs to us, indians can go find their own history on indian land.

You do realize that before India was formed Pakistani now had moved from around and about India?

It is very unlikely when IVC died out, you ancestors just sat an Indus bank and reproducing...they migrated and probably mixed with the Indians....If not migrated to India and may or may not have accepted Islam or may have just decided to stay in India during the formation of Pakistan...

So, technically speaking some Indians may have claim over IVC! Based on their roots!

 

[Pride]

Why can't we? The migration patterns of Human are complex!!

People can be associated with more than 1 land! FOR SURE! The best is the 1 with the most diverse gene pool...meaning they have moved and have intermarriages and the offsprings have moved again...

Agreed that Human migrations are complex and confusing at times.

Association is different, Accepting history is different. Just to give a glimpse of the same Bin Qasim. Ghouri, Ghazni etc were attacker/outsider to the land for us (Call it Hindus, Call it India) while they are heroes for Pakistanis. Now, a quick question arises What it will be considered for someone who are converted. Did they should praise those or hate them?

PLUS it takes 2 to reproduce...1 mother and 1 father than each have 2 getting 4 grandparents and so on!!....1 could be Irani, 1 could be Turk, 1 could be Indian and 1 could be Arab! Any problem?

You know what only till Son/Daughter level it works like this afterwards it is always father/grandfather roots work (Male dominated words). No one calls Shajahan and other Mughals as son of Rajputs (though for some of them Mother was Rajput). Geographical location is not the case.

Before you go bashing my cheerful self...This is just a hypothesis! Some people in Pakistan are a mixture of 2 ...That's no identity crisis it is called diversity!

To be true, Identity crisis is harsh word though Confusing identity may be appropriate. Mixture of 2 case is same as I have explained above.

I am just a little confused here...What does our religion now have to do with what our ancestors were worshiping? They are long dead!

Ancestors might be dead but you carry their history and gene pools or your history is totally wiped after they are dead. What you worship and what you do, was or is one's choice.

 

[Hyperion]

Simple answer?

WE ARE BOTH MORONS.

 

[Dubious]

The point is Indians dont say you have no right to IVC because you are Muslims - but because you believe in the idealogy of Pakistan which says Islam is your identity and IVC was not Islam. Pakistan was formed in the name of Islam while India was not. SO that obviously excludes the Muslims and Christians of India.

This is ridiculous!

Just because we are Muslims now does not erase where our roots started or who our ancestors were!

 

[Redbull]

You do realize that before India was formed Pakistani now had moved from around and about India?

It is very unlikely when IVC died out, you ancestors just sat an Indus bank and reproducing...they migrated and probably mixed with the Indians....If not migrated to India and may or may not have accepted Islam or may have just decided to stay in India during the formation of Pakistan...

So, technically speaking some Indians may have claim over IVC! Based on their roots!

That maybe true, but it is unlikely that they migrate eastward into Rajhastan desert, the more likely migration was northwards with the Indus river close by and then to punjab and Kashmir with fertile land. I will not hesitate in admitting that perhaps some moved onto modern day India after that.

 

[KS]

This is ridiculous!

Just because we are Muslims now does not erase where our roots started or who our ancestors were!

For many it does. Else you would not be naming your missiles Ghauri or Babur ..instead it would be Porus or Dahir.

That maybe true, but it is unlikely that they migrate eastward into Rajhastan desert, the more likely migration was northwards with the Indus river close by and then to punjab and Kashmir with fertile land. I will not hesitate in admitting that perhaps some moved onto modern day India after that.

There was actually no need for any migration for India to claim - Lothal, the primary outlet of IVC to outside world is in Gujarat, India.

 

[Dubious]

Agreed that Human migrations are complex and confusing at times.

Association is different, Accepting history is different. Just to give a glimpse of the same Bin Qasim. Ghouri, Ghazni etc were attacker/outsider to the land for us (Call it Hindus, Call it India) while they are heroes for Pakistanis. Now, a quick question arises What it will be considered for someone who are converted. Did they should praise those or hate them?

Well, this still does not explain why someone who was "forcefully converted" want to be called the same race as the one who converted him? (Arab?)

Plus when those who "enforced" this left or died out or a different power took over...it was their choice to "convert back" which they didn't, why?

Maybe there is no enforcer...remember many twist history for their benefits...

Or maybe they accepted being a Muslim? Why hate than?

You know what only till Son/Daughter level it works like this afterwards it is always father/grandfather roots work (Male dominated words). No one calls Shajahan and other Mughals as son of Rajputs (though for some of them Mother was Rajput). Geographical location is not the case.

So, after the marriage, a human can't claim connections to their maternal side? Can't say I am halfPersian?

Genetics, can check out where your roots are from and whom you are related to you...It stays in your genes...though the protocol is not 100% certain as of yet, more data is needed for confirmation but simple information as to if you have Arab descent or Indian descent can be told from genetics...even if it is from a far ancestor!

To be true, Identity crisis is harsh word though Confusing identity may be appropriate. Mixture of 2 case is same as I have explained above.

Ancestors might be dead but you carry their history and gene pools or your history is totally wiped after they are dead. What you worship and what you do, was or is one's choice.

Yes, my very point!

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

The point is Indians dont say you have no right to IVC because you are Muslims - but because you believe in the idealogy of Pakistan which says Islam is your identity and IVC was not Islam. Pakistan was formed in the name of Islam while India was not. SO that obviously excludes the Muslims and Christians of India.

Islam is not just my primary identity but it is primary identity of all Muslims belong to different tribes , nationality and culture. secondly it has nothing to do with IVC Islamic or non Islamic. Muslim country could also have non Islamic history and heritage. Its not just about Pakistan but its true for many muslim countries

 

[Dubious]

That maybe true, but it is unlikely that they migrate eastward into Rajhastan desert, the more likely migration was northwards with the Indus river close by and then to punjab and Kashmir with fertile land. I will not hesitate in admitting that perhaps some moved onto modern day India after that.

Just out of curiosity, how old is the dessert? Was it there during IVC times?

Islam is not just my primary identity but it is primary identity of all Muslims belong to different tribes , nationality and culture. secondly it has nothing to do with IVC Islamic or non Islamic. Muslim country could also have non Islamic history and heritage. Its not just about Pakistan but its true for manymuslim countries

This problem arises when people do not differentiate Religion and Culture!

Though right now we are talking about RACE!

 

[Pride]

Why or even how can a person who was a Hindu change to Muslim and claim to have Arab ancestors...I am like huh? Sorry did I miss something...

Did someone who convert suddenly say he is from Arab descent just because he became Muslim? So, I asked that culprit to stand up or raise his hand so I can have a word with his split mentality and inferior issues...I have yet to meet such a person!!

TO ALL THOSE who put this forward please point me to that man/ people!

I just cited few general quotes where people have different religious heroes convert/attacker/Migrants. Changing all Missile names/Port names on attackers/intruders means that 100% Pakistanis believe that they were achiever and it does not bother to them who are convert and does not care what harm they have done for certain civilization. Is it very complex to explain?

The part about who ruled whom and when is ancient history...what does it proof? IF you talk about land yes I can understand...But if you intermix culture with religion or vice versa it is craziness!

The proof does not exist for our gods and Prophets but we believe them so for now lets continue to believe then whole discussion will be directionless.

Well, apparently the points are

Pakistanis do not claim the same ancestors as Indians!
Paksitanis have the IVC on their land and hence, say their root is that.

Because they do not have similar ancestors so the land on our side of the border belongs to our ancestor not Indian because they believe in different lineage! That I can digest...

I think I am talking too complex here or you are getting confused. If you have different gene pool an all of You are Monglos/ Arabs/Persian then of course we don't share same ancestors but if we have many of them whose ancestors used to belong to that region then those section has right to claim having in on Land does not make them to claim any civilization as borders get change with time.

BUT WHAT is this nonesense about how can you be an Arab...haha?

I mean why can't 1 have an Arab descent? Why can't 1 have a Persian descent? What is sooo wrong about that?

Did I so? Your ancestors may be migrated to this with any of the rulers. But if they migrated in 743 AD then how ccan you claim something which was there 3000 BCE.

Human beings migrate alot! It is common to have different ancestors to the land we live on...what is soo funny about it or so undigestable that it keeps being brought on this forum??

Thank you Pride...All the questions were answered except the question about WHO ON EARTH claimed a different ancestry after conversion?

I think you need to read my posts from the starting.

PS: Thanks Talon, Raja, Ticker. I am having such sane discussion after a long time

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

This problem arises when people do not differentiate Religion and Culture!

Though right now we are talking about RACE!

no the problem arises when we say that we are proud to be Muslim and our forefathers or ancestors were wrong if they were pagans, worshipping idols or fire but it don't mean they were not our ancestors

 

[Dubious]

no the problem arises when we say that we are proud to be Muslim and our forefathers or ancestors were wrong if they were pagans, worshipping idols or fire but it don't mean they were not our ancestors

No, not that problem! The problem with people who say that some Muslims who converted to Islam started claiming Arab descent!

Sorry I am still surprised how that happened!

 

[Pride]

Well, this still does not explain why someone who was "forcefully converted" want to be called the same race as the one who converted him? (Arab?)

Plus when those who "enforced" this left or died out or a different power took over...it was their choice to "convert back" which they didn't, why?

Maybe there is no enforcer...remember many twist history for their benefits...

Or maybe they accepted being a Muslim? Why hate than?

We are not going to "forcefully converted theory". Aren't we? I am just talking about the son of soils who converted to Muslims. When, How, Why lets leave it for some other discussion.

Who said I hate Muslims? I hate lunatics, be it in any religion.

So, after the marriage, a human can't claim connections to their maternal side? Can't say I am halfPersian?

Genetics, can check out where your roots are from and whom you are related to you...It stays in your genes...though the protocol is not 100% certain as of yet, more data is needed for confirmation but simple information as to if you have Arab descent or Indian descent can be told from genetics...even if it is from a far ancestor!

Wish it happens in that way but never happens. if my father is Indian and mom Japanese then may be my son/daughter have association with Japanese culture but in future their son/daughter will be Indian. Blame on Male dominance.

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Yes, my very point!