Calm dissection of Delhi riots from a non-Hindutva perspective

[Nilgiri]

donot speak in one voice

Thats what I have been saying. Find me one culture that speaks in (as close to) one voice esp at highest debate level...and you will find its inversely proportional to its actual ability to evolve and transition (expediently) with better streams of knowledge as time progresses.

why did the fantastical almost Harry Pottersque tales of the Puranas and Epics take hold among the Hindu populace rather than the Brihadaranyaka and the Chandogya?

Same reason the stories in the bible appeal to most. Among the bible (OT+NT), its the jewish bible (OT) that still produces far more visceral interest and appeal too. An interesting parallel to how the Vedas and upanishads also present themselves.

We live in the real world....not a higher plane of conceptual thought. Higher thought and debate just becomes inaccessible to most people if you have it as some complete monolith of sanctified cultural respository....we after all deeply intuit that we are not perfect beings given the reality we see all around us....why must there be no struggle/turmoil/rawness all evidencing the constant imperfection in the great stories of the progenitors too?

There is deep reason why the more buddhist areas of subcontinent (in contrast to hindu/vedanta driven areas) with much less earthly feel/ritual disappeared first thing on the onslaught of a certain other religion that made no room for such a thing to co-exist.

The grander elder culture likely would have been replaced all together if it took the buddhist model everywhere....or if the vedic religion permeated in a sense like its brother one did in Persia as strictly more "planar" thought too. Contrast the Gathas with its upstream intervention by its great singular founder/compiler sage with the way things turned out (singularly and much more mono-stream) to its Eastern brethren with Vedas being split, upanishads forming more planar commentary/addendum and the downstream Puranas and epics to add real-visceral aspect of it....very different feel and consequence right?. Then contrast what happened to one area with the other one when faced with roughly same onslaught of another religion down the road.

People need cultural reality and connection...something they can implant themselves into readily like their fathers before them. There always must be balance with the higher theoretical philosophy realm.

I personally feel the popularization of the Epics and the Puranas severely hurt the scientific temperment of the Indian populace..I would be eager to hear your take

Nah. The singular greatest effect was the grand destruction of the civilisation structure under onslaught 1 and then onslaught 2 of foreign dogmatic/centralized culture that made natural layering/refinement (that is instructive to say scientific rennaisance at spark moments) difficult and jarring where the elder culture stayed strong in first place. The 2nd onslaught had the magnitude of grandiose economic extraction/subjugation too which stripped the land's wealth and knowledge through colonialism, even with its former great inertia that survived the 1st one in many many ways. This is all real stuff that is basic requirement to be conditioned well in the larger society when you want to have scientific/planar based development.

Simply there is no way we can know for sure the hypothetical of what-if given what has transpired and for so long at great cost and pain to so many.

For it was in the area I am from that the world's best ancient steel was developed, traded and spread gaining the name "Damascus" only later. It could not have been done without the civilisational balance such area scripted for itself.

 

[Omar Al-Deek]

Well there was also the Scientific Revolution and rationalist ideas...would it be really wise to disregard that? Don't you feel the western elite model that the Universe is bound to physical laws and is not subject to the whims of Gods and holymen is a good framework?

sounds like atheism

There is good and bad everywhere. You learn from the good and reject as much bad you can....but there should be no blind referencing/copying of other cultural hearths.

And no I reject thats the "western elite model" at all...that one must totally reject faith to have science and replace absolutism to have relativism.... there is after all a Kant for every Hegel. Its not any monotone flavour...there is binary debate there intrinsically....found in all core philsophy of elder cultures, its there in upanishads if you look and understand too.

there is a Kant for every Hegel?

what does that mean?

what is Kant representing and what is Hegel representing?

I see them both as mystics..... Hegel was into the occult and Kant was into Swedenborg

 

[Taimoor Khan]

Time is an illusion honey

Do not inveigh against time, for Allaah is time

There is a serious mob mentality problem in the subcontinent but especially in North India in the Hindi speaking belt..You see these emotions flare up when mobs get hold of truck drivers who may have run over pedestrians due to rash driving.

Though I remain an atheist nominal-Hindutvabadi, we have to peer deep into our hearts whether we can accord basic dignity to fellow human beings regardless of their religious or political persuasion

I am dissapointed with Modi 2.0 and may be this may force me to stop taking any interest in Indian Politics anymore

Enjoy!

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

sounds like atheism



there is a Kant for every Hegel?

what does that mean?

what is Kant representing and what is Hegel representing?

I see them both as mystics..... Hegel was into the occult and Kant was into Swedenborg

Immanuel Kant represents German Idealism which is very very close to Upanishadic Non-dualism...Heck even his personal life was like that of a Vedic Sage, extreme adherence to celibacy to the point of even avoiding wet dreams..Hegel had once written a very weird take on Hinduism and especially the Brahman community

 

[Omar Al-Deek]

Immanuel Kant represents German Idealism which is very very close to Upanishadic Non-dualism...Heck even his personal life was like that of a Vedic Sage, extreme adherence to celibacy to the point of even avoiding wet dreams..Hegel had once written a very weird take on Hinduism and especially the Brahman community

what exactly in Kant's writings or doctrines were similar to Upanishads?

I see Kant as being a promoter of the so-called "Enlightenment" (secularism, impiety)

 

[H. Dawary]

Thats what I have been saying. Find me one culture that speaks in (as close to) one voice esp at highest debate level...and you will find its inversely proportional to its actual ability to evolve and transition (expediently) with better streams of knowledge as time progresses.



Same reason the stories in the bible appeal to most. Among the bible (OT+NT), its the jewish bible (OT) that still produces far more visceral interest and appeal too. An interesting parallel to how the Vedas and upanishads also present themselves.

We live in the real world....not a higher plane of conceptual thought. Higher thought and debate just becomes inaccessible to most people if you have it as some complete monolith of sanctified cultural respository....we after all deeply intuit that we are not perfect beings given the reality we see all around us....why must there be no struggle/turmoil/rawness all evidencing the constant imperfection in the great stories of the progenitors too?

There is deep reason why the more buddhist areas of subcontinent (in contrast to hindu/vedanta driven areas) with much less earthly feel/ritual disappeared first thing on the onslaught of a certain other religion that made no room for such a thing to co-exist.

The grander elder culture likely would have been replaced all together if it took the buddhist model everywhere....or if the vedic religion permeated in a sense like its brother one did in Persia as strictly more "planar" thought too. Contrast the Gathas with its upstream intervention by its great singular founder/compiler sage with the way things turned out (singularly and much more mono-stream) to its Eastern brethren with Vedas being split, upanishads forming more planar commentary/addendum and the downstream Puranas and epics to add real-visceral aspect of it....very different feel and consequence right?. Then contrast what happened to one area with the other one when faced with roughly same onslaught of another religion down the road.

People need cultural reality and connection...something they can implant themselves into readily like their fathers before them. There always must be balance with the higher theoretical philosophy realm.



Nah. The singular greatest effect was the grand destruction of the civilisation structure under onslaught 1 and then onslaught 2 of foreign dogmatic/centralized culture that made natural layering/refinement (that is instructive to say scientific rennaisance at spark moments) difficult and jarring where the elder culture stayed strong in first place. The 2nd onslaught had the magnitude of grandiose economic extraction/subjugation too which stripped the land's wealth and knowledge through colonialism, even with its former great inertia that survived the 1st one in many many ways. This is all real stuff that is basic requirement to be conditioned well in the larger society when you want to have scientific/planar based development.

Simply there is no way we can know for sure the hypothetical of what-if given what has transpired and for so long at great cost and pain to so many.

For it was in the area I am from that the world's best ancient steel was developed, traded and spread gaining the name "Damascus" only later. It could not have been done without the civilisational balance such area scripted for itself.

Don’t read too much or you’ll become a sage. That’s what happens to philosophers when they take their practice to its extremes. Otherwise you can join Nietzsches Zarathustra at his mountain peak.

I prefer the middle path of neither dim witted-ness and neither starving oneself to the point of enlightenment.

Staying on topic... question to both @Nilgiri and @Juggernaut_is_here Will Modi be elected at his next term given how it has been this far?

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

Thats what I have been saying. Find me one culture that speaks in (as close to) one voice esp at highest debate level...and you will find its inversely proportional to its actual ability to evolve and transition (expediently) with better streams of knowledge as time progresses.



Same reason the stories in the bible appeal to most. Among the bible (OT+NT), its the jewish bible (OT) that still produces far more visceral interest and appeal too. An interesting parallel to how the Vedas and upanishads also present themselves.

We live in the real world....not a higher plane of conceptual thought. Higher thought and debate just becomes inaccessible to most people if you have it as some complete monolith of sanctified cultural respository....we after all deeply intuit that we are not perfect beings given the reality we see all around us....why must there be no struggle/turmoil/rawness all evidencing the constant imperfection in the great stories of the progenitors too?

There is deep reason why the more buddhist areas of subcontinent (in contrast to hindu/vedanta driven areas) with much less earthly feel/ritual disappeared first thing on the onslaught of a certain other religion that made no room for such a thing to co-exist.

The grander elder culture likely would have been replaced all together if it took the buddhist model everywhere....or if the vedic religion permeated in a sense like its brother one did in Persia as strictly more "planar" thought too. Contrast the Gathas with its upstream intervention by its great singular founder/compiler sage with the way things turned out (singularly and much more mono-stream) to its Eastern brethren with Vedas being split, upanishads forming more planar commentary/addendum and the downstream Puranas and epics to add real-visceral aspect of it....very different feel and consequence right?. Then contrast what happened to one area with the other one when faced with roughly same onslaught of another religion down the road.

People need cultural reality and connection...something they can implant themselves into readily like their fathers before them. There always must be balance with the higher theoretical philosophy realm.



Nah. The singular greatest effect was the grand destruction of the civilisation structure under onslaught 1 and then onslaught 2 of foreign dogmatic/centralized culture that made natural layering/refinement (that is instructive to say scientific rennaisance at spark moments) difficult and jarring where the elder culture stayed strong in first place. The 2nd onslaught had the magnitude of grandiose economic extraction/subjugation too which stripped the land's wealth and knowledge through colonialism, even with its former great inertia that survived the 1st one in many many ways. This is all real stuff that is basic requirement to be conditioned well in the larger society when you want to have scientific/planar based development.

Simply there is no way we can know for sure the hypothetical of what-if given what has transpired and for so long at great cost and pain to so many.

For it was in the area I am from that the world's best ancient steel was developed, traded and spread gaining the name "Damascus" only later. It could not have been done without the civilisational balance such area scripted for itself.

Wootz Steel yes...So you are saying that the stratification of the "grander elder culture" into epics and Puranas gave everybody a sense of ownership and made them substantial stakeholders when the time came for defence? That's acceptable but there are still a few things that trouble my point....You are well aware how popular are the stories of "super weapons"/Brahmaastras in these epics. Their existence and efficacy is accepted b

Don’t read too much or you’ll become a sage. That’s what happens to philosophers when they take their practice to its extremes. Otherwise you can join Nietzsches Zarathustra at his mountain peak.

I prefer the middle path of neither dim witted-ness and neither starving oneself to the point of enlightenment.

Staying on topic... question to both @Nilgiri and @Juggernaut_is_here Will Modi be elected at his next term given how it has been this far?

I would say it still depends on how he manages the economy in the 2 years leading up to the election...People outside of the North are not too enthusiastic about muscular cultural nationalism...But then again North took the whole brunt of the Turkic invasions and there primary conerns tend to be towards cultural preservation...The south having fended off the Turkic invasions for the most part donot feel any sort of bon homie towards BJP 's brand of Hindutva..that said @Nilgiri would be much more authoratitive on this topic

 

[H. Dawary]

Wootz Steel yes...So you are saying that the stratification of the "grander elder culture" into epics and Puranas gave everybody a sense of ownership and made them substantial stakeholders when the time came for defence? That's acceptable but there are still a few things that trouble my point....You are well aware how popular are the stories of "super weapons"/Brahmaastras in these epics. Their existence and efficacy is accepted b



I would say it still depends on how he manages the economy in the 2 years leading up to the election...People outside of the North are not too enthusiastic about muscular cultural nationalism...But then again North took the whole brunt of the Turkic invasions and there primary conerns tend to be towards cultural preservation...The south having fended off the Turkic invasions for the most part donot feel any sort of bon homie towards BJP 's brand of Hindutva..that said @Nilgiri would be much more authoratitive on this topic

Are you sure? Thus far he’s been relying on demagoguery and fake displays of strength to bolden those who are Hindu to win support, he is in a way following the democratic model and trajecting the populace towards that direction. I have a strong feeling that he might try another Feb 27th once more near the end of his term. I apologize if I am coming off as hostile, but am really curious...

Also I apologize at @Nilgiri if my post was condescending (although it does seem like that), as that was not my intent.

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

Thats what I have been saying. Find me one culture that speaks in (as close to) one voice esp at highest debate level...and you will find its inversely proportional to its actual ability to evolve and transition (expediently) with better streams of knowledge as time progresses.



Same reason the stories in the bible appeal to most. Among the bible (OT+NT), its the jewish bible (OT) that still produces far more visceral interest and appeal too. An interesting parallel to how the Vedas and upanishads also present themselves.

We live in the real world....not a higher plane of conceptual thought. Higher thought and debate just becomes inaccessible to most people if you have it as some complete monolith of sanctified cultural respository....we after all deeply intuit that we are not perfect beings given the reality we see all around us....why must there be no struggle/turmoil/rawness all evidencing the constant imperfection in the great stories of the progenitors too?

There is deep reason why the more buddhist areas of subcontinent (in contrast to hindu/vedanta driven areas) with much less earthly feel/ritual disappeared first thing on the onslaught of a certain other religion that made no room for such a thing to co-exist.

The grander elder culture likely would have been replaced all together if it took the buddhist model everywhere....or if the vedic religion permeated in a sense like its brother one did in Persia as strictly more "planar" thought too. Contrast the Gathas with its upstream intervention by its great singular founder/compiler sage with the way things turned out (singularly and much more mono-stream) to its Eastern brethren with Vedas being split, upanishads forming more planar commentary/addendum and the downstream Puranas and epics to add real-visceral aspect of it....very different feel and consequence right?. Then contrast what happened to one area with the other one when faced with roughly same onslaught of another religion down the road.

People need cultural reality and connection...something they can implant themselves into readily like their fathers before them. There always must be balance with the higher theoretical philosophy realm.



Nah. The singular greatest effect was the grand destruction of the civilisation structure under onslaught 1 and then onslaught 2 of foreign dogmatic/centralized culture that made natural layering/refinement (that is instructive to say scientific rennaisance at spark moments) difficult and jarring where the elder culture stayed strong in first place. The 2nd onslaught had the magnitude of grandiose economic extraction/subjugation too which stripped the land's wealth and knowledge through colonialism, even with its former great inertia that survived the 1st one in many many ways. This is all real stuff that is basic requirement to be conditioned well in the larger society when you want to have scientific/planar based development.

Simply there is no way we can know for sure the hypothetical of what-if given what has transpired and for so long at great cost and pain to so many.

For it was in the area I am from that the world's best ancient steel was developed, traded and spread gaining the name "Damascus" only later. It could not have been done without the civilisational balance such area scripted for itself.

Wootz Steel yes...So you are saying that the stratification of the "grander elder culture" into epics and Puranas gave everybody a sense of ownership and made them substantial stakeholders when the time came for defence? That's acceptable but there are still a few things that trouble me...You are well aware how popular are the stories of "super weapons"/Brahmaastras in these epics. Their existence and efficacy is accepted as matterof fact by even Indians with the most advanced science education, save for the ones who are diehard atheists...There has been incursions from the Northwest since the time of Achaemenids around 530 BC..Why did the Indian sages fail to summon any Brahmaatra of any sort to counter the NW Invaders--->both pre and post Islamic...why couldnot Indian sages understand that against the ferocity of the Turks only newest tactics, better horsebreeds and the finest weapons would succeed and not astrology or the summoning of Brahmaastras? Why have Indians failed to materialize these Brahmaastras or for that matter failed to realize that these Brahmaastras were literary devices, figments of imagination


another counterfactual

What stopped Indians from carrying out a Scientific Revolution comparable to the European one back in 8th century AD? What stopped Indians from having an Industrial revolution before 10th century AD? @Nilgiri

 

[Nilgiri]

Will Modi be elected at his next term given how it has been this far?

Too early to say. Need to see how economy picks up this year and next.

5 year term is quite longer than 4 year term in the "middle" of it.

I wouldnt pay all that much attention to other stuff.

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

Are you sure? Thus far he’s been relying on demagoguery and fake displays of strength to bolden those who are Hindu to win support, he is in a way following the democratic model and trajecting the populace towards that direction. I have a strong feeling that he might try another Feb 27th once more near the end of his election. I apologize if I am coming off as hostile, but am really curious...

Also I apologize at @Nilgiri if my post was condescending (although it does seem like that), as that was not my intent.

You cannot win anything other than the Northern heartlands with Hindutva talk..26th and 27th Feb was in response to Pulwama and it badly exposed IAF and it's perfunctory attitude towards new acquisitions...India's political elite understands that LoC is the defacto international border and it hopes that Pakistan sees the same...India doesnot expect to acquire Pakistani Kashmir GB, nor does it expect to lose Indian Kashmir....Inspite of all the Pakistani triumphalism, what exactly did change on the ground regarding Kashmir? It just became as much part of the Indian Union as Delhi ...What I do know is that Pak forces used BVR missiles and there was a gentleman's agreement beforehand of not using the same should the situation at the border ever deteriorate into a dogfight..anyways all that is out of the window and hopefully gives India the same impetus to modernize that the defeat of 1962 to China did

 

[Nilgiri]

Wootz Steel yes...So you are saying that the stratification of the "grander elder culture" into epics and Puranas gave everybody a sense of ownership and made them substantial stakeholders when the time came for defence? That's acceptable but there are still a few things that trouble me...You are well aware how popular are the stories of "super weapons"/Brahmaastras in these epics. Their existence and efficacy is accepted as matterof fact by even Indians with the most advanced science education, save for the ones who are diehard atheists...There has been incursions from the Northwest since the time of Achaemenids around 530 BC..Why did the Indian sages fail to summon any Brahmaatra of any sort to counter the NW Invaders--->both pre and post Islamic...why couldnot Indian sages understand that against the ferocity of the Turks only newest tactics, better horsebreeds and the finest weapons would succeed and not astrology or the summoning of Brahmaastras? Why have Indians failed to materialize these Brahmaastras or for that matter failed to realize that these Brahmaastras were literary devices, figments of imagination

You are going too deeply into this stuff. Understand what is esoteric meaning versus literal. You seem to have some fascination for the "weapon" part of this literally. Are we to also think Jericho also fell just like that by marching around it? Its potency was used as some poignant defence of constantinople?

Then you paint Indians in some broad brush condescendingly. You have been in each and every mind to understand its interpretation and specific obstruction internally?

What stopped Indians from carrying out a Scientific Revolution comparable to the European one back in 8th century AD? What stopped Indians from having an Industrial revolution before 10th century AD?

What stopped everyone else? That's like asking why was everyone else behind at other moments. You gather pace, get lucky and you make use of a spark when it arrives and if its big enough of course it will be unique, since thats where it emerged from the right happenstance of events.

Going back and then saying why didnt specific set of conditions happen elsewhere at some earlier time...and then use that as some be-all end-all absolute affirmation of some other issue is frankly so stupid and a strawman. We are to believe that Europe would have gone anywhere if they stuck with roman numeral system in some hypothetical existence where only they existed? Yeah ok sure.

There is major variation in every part of the world in all kind of things and cross pollination you cannot strictly delineate in the downstream results.....and yet you want to package it cleanly as some black or white issue?

Guess what... none of the rest of the world did the holocaust and holodomor in such quick succession too. So the place that did them must be truly non-enlightened evil right? NOTHING sets that kind of stuff right in some "compensation" kind of way. If you want to worship it as absolute like its a neo-deity, be my guest. I prefer sifting good from bad...and giving all people benefit of the doubt as default as to why they are the way they are...and that it will change for better for all their societies and whats not to stop others from being some apex of something positive in future if history especially illustrates that.

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

You are going too deeply into this stuff. Understand what is esoteric meaning versus literal. You seem to have some fascination for the "weapon" part of this literally. Are we to also think Jericho also fell just like that by marching around it? Its potency was used as some poignant defence of constantinople?

Then you paint Indians in some broad brush condescendingly. You have been in each and every mind to understand its interpretation and specific obstruction internally?

thanks...I guess I will use this as my guiding light from now on

 

[SecularNationalist]

There is a serious mob mentality problem in the subcontinent

For the love of God please have some shame and don't relate that to a mob .
What happened in Delhi was a planned state sponsored genocide not a angry mob attack.There were numerous reports of RSS gangs attacking Muslim homes under police protection.And that happened in the capital city. Is there still any pride left in being a indian?
The current government through their RSS and bajrang dal militant wings wanted to send a message that if you continue with your protests you will have to pay a heavy price.Even though later some government officials have to fulfill typical formalities of condemning it and supporting the affectees ,the sent the message to the Muslim minority loud and clear.

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

For the love of God please have some shame and don't relate that to a mob .
What happened in Delhi was a planned state sponsored genocide not a angry mob attack.There were numerous reports of RSS gangs attacking Muslim homes under police protection.And that happened in the capital city. Is there still any pride left in being a indian?
The current government through their RSS and bajrang dal militant wings wanted to send a message that if you continue with your protests you will have to pay a heavy price.Even though later some government officials have to fulfill typical formalities of condemning it and supporting the affectees ,the sent the message to the Muslim minority loud and clear.

We still have 20 percent minority (over 200 million) while our exalted neighbours reduced theirs to negligible levels...