Building a new ‘Mandar’ in Riyasat-e-Madina is against the spirit of Islam: Ch Pervaiz Elahi

[YeBeWarned]

While you nicely address whether a mandir should be acceptable to muslims, I couldnt find your view on the government paying for it? If i missed it, please point be to it. Thanks.

Buddy, I am not a expert but let me try answer you with whatever limited knowledge and understanding I have, I am correct Thats because of Allah who guide me, And If i am wrong its because of my own faulty understanding . May Allah forgive me ..

Ok so lets go back to the time of Prophet and his successors , when Muslims were in conquest mode they usually go to cities giving them three options such as 1) Fight 2)pay Jizya 3)Accept Islam many of the cities agree to Jizya cause that tax is far lesser than whatever their ex masters ( Byzantine and Persian ) put on them, also when Jizya is paid with a ton load of condition ( it will only be paid according to the affordability of the people or tribe ) they become Dhimmi ( or part of the people or subjects ) hence no harm or injustice can come to them .

Now on the conquest of Jerusalem , Umar ibn Khattab RA let Jews and Christians retain their places of Worship which was already there, he also let them rule with their own law , we know for a fact that Umar RA ordered a Mosque which is know as Umar Mosque but it is unclear who's funds were used , but here I am assuming that there is nothing wrong if Umar Khattab RA has used some of the funds from the Jizya collected from Jews and Christians to be used in construction of Masjid, cause its the state money and they can use as they desire as long as they are not doing corruption in it, Now Hindu and sikhs are not conquered by Muslims of Pakistan but we all get our freedom and they stayed where they were living, now they pay taxes just like us, hence we use the taxes on their needs ( we are suppose too ) and also the defense such as ( Police/Rangers/Army ) . Construction of Mandir creates a difficult paradigm because there is no example to follow, it can only be done through either Ijtihad or Ijma which these days can easily be influenced by the Fiqh or the Sarkri Mullah's .

If you ask me how would i resolved this issues , by not literally going against the fundamentals of my religion, without giving the thought of that I am encouraging Idol worshiping or supporting it, I would divide this whole project into 4 Distinct section , and cost associated with it will be divided into various sectors . Let me explain what I mean ..
1) Land, Land is basically owned by Govt, or Private people but lets assume its a Govt land, so from a Govt prospect I would give them a Free or Subsidized Land to build their temple by consensus of my ministers. If the land is privately owned, Than I would as a Govt ask them to purchase the land with whatever price the owner puts .

2) Construction, That part should be taken care of by the community themselves, through various means such as donations . For me to use Govt Funds which as per Islamic understanding is property of all Muslims and as I can not get everyone to agree to fund a temple, I would suggest them to use their own funds to construct the temple but the least I would offer is clearance for them such as water lines or electricity stuff without them paying extra such as Bribes ( its someone's God's home hence it would be disgusting to ask for bribes here ) .

3) Security, Now this is something complicated because in a country like Pakistan you can't just rely on Private security , you need govt agencies to work in with you to keep certain threats at bay, Police is equipped training and other expenses which is beard by the Govt hence Public funds so one way of another Govt is bound to get involved in the temple project, Now As a Govt I can not ask the Minority for additional funds for security because they already pay taxes, and as per the constitution we have to protect their places of worship hence we as Govt can and should provide partial security to them alone with asking them to hire some private security as well . But here one might argue that some Muslims might not be comfortable with guarding a temple that has Idols in it, cause Pakistani's are usually the Idol breaking type not the protecting Idol worshipers type ( not all of us of course ) . So the Unit or Agency that is involved in Temple security needs to be checked thoroughly about their believes and understanding of Islam, we can not put a extremists or someone with a extreme Ideas in the security of Temple cause it increase the chance of them becoming the inside man of the supposed Attackers ( God forbid ) . We have seen this in Attacks on our forces bases how a inside man who holds a sympathetic sentiments for Taliban or Terrorist version of Islam helps them in attacking the Forces .

And last,

4) Maintenance, Now obviously this expense has to be bear by the Temple Administration such as cleaning , maintaining the temple decorum , lights , paying bills ( if applicable ) , Perks such as Generators, furniture etc which they can do via many means such as our masajid do, like ask for funds and donation after every Jummah prayers . Oh yes, and here I must mentioned that the temple Administration has to make sure that funds are coming through strictly legal means and by Pakistani's , they must not accept any foreign funds from either Indian or Western Hindu's cause it can create a rift and atmosphere for conspiracy theories to be born.

I think I cover everything but if i miss anything feel free to Point it out, once again this is not Official Islamic position its just my personal understanding of things in the light of Islam I ( Personally ) understand, if I am right it is because of the guidance of Allah, if I am wrong it is from my own faulty understanding and may Allah forgive me for it ..

@AgNoStiC MuSliM @Joe Shearer @SQ8 @Pan-Islamic-Pakistan @BHarwana feel free to add anything here .

 

[Buddhistforlife]

every civilization impose restrictions on minorities for building new worship place,europe also not allowed building of mosques for thousands of years and spain converted mosques to churches,but even after they allowed they impose restrictions on loud calling of Azan as well slaughtering animals for sacrifice openly,similarly china and russia also disallowed building of new mosques in their history and india also is demolishing mosques and banned loud calling of Azan,In many western countries women are not allowed to wear burqa and mayanmar budhists brutality killed thousands of burma Muslims so first ask this logic from these nations who call them as secular but show clear bias towards Islam

Myanmar is not a secular country. Buddhism is in the constitution of Myanmar.

Buddhists can never be secular.

 

[YeBeWarned]

We have to become a genuine Islamic state (with religious accountability) before we can fully reinstitute fiqh at every level. There needs to be a system. A bunch of opportunist secularist politicians, religious illiterates, and corrupt judges of LHC/IHC/PHC, I shudder to think what they are capable of.

The contract between the people and the state needs to be redrawn before we can talk about Jizya and such things.

Great post brother. Very thorough and to the point. Allah swt bless you.

I wish the Pakistani government's policy could be laid out so these issues can be debated on their own merits, rather than doing one thing here and there. It is all just ammunition for the opposition parties.

Yaar we should, but question is .. Is our public ready ? I mean if I go by the strictly through the Riyaste Madina half of Pakistani's will be walking with either no head or no hands at all . Honestly we are not ready to become a Islamic state and not just our Elite class but all the way to our lower class such as Sabzi wale and thele wale .. Rich and poor we are corrupt to our core

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

Coming up next Grand Masonic Lodge no. 420. Grand master Imran Khan.
High priestess Pinky Peerni.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

Yaar we should, but question is .. Is our public ready ? I mean if I go by the strictly through the Riyaste Madina half of Pakistani's will be walking with either no head or no hands at all . Honestly we are not ready to become a Islamic state and not just our Elite class but all the way to our lower class such as Sabzi wale and thele wale .. Rich and poor we are corrupt to our core

This is why Dr. Israr Ahmad said that the quest for Islamic revival begins from the grassroots, the people need to be changed first. He discouraged religious parties and ulema from getting involved in the political system fully, because it will cripple their ability to better the society at all levels.

He was right, the experience of JI and its shenanigans proves it. JI supported many anti-Islamic policies just to get a piece of the pie.

 

[YeBeWarned]

This is why Dr. Israr Ahmad said that the quest for Islamic revival begins from the grassroots, the people need to be changed first. He discouraged religious parties and ulema from getting involved in the political system fully, because it will cripple their ability to better the society at all levels.

He was right, the experience of JI and its shenanigans proves it. JI supported many anti-Islamic policies just to get a piece of the pie.

Pakistan become the test bed of Secularism and Religious Governing in the recent History, we are changing our course so quick that our awaam Aka People doesn't have time tp put their heads around the change ..

1980's Zia was doing his best to bring a strict rule of Shariah with the help of Local Imam and Mullah , and what was expected came true that these Religious fanatics become so powerful that they start threatening the state it self. Later Mushy was stuck between USA and the Idea of Muslim Ummah Brotherhood which we saw promoted throughout the Pakistan to Fight Soviets, people were confused either to help their brothers in Afghanistan or what ? Later on PPPP and PMLN did nothing but continued what Mush left with a label of Democracy over it, just to make some Foreign Powers feel good .. and now we have IK who is himself confused between Religion and Secularism . I am very eager which side of his prevails in the end . But i hope in the due process he does not hurt the soul of Pakistan .

 

[AfrazulMandal]

I agree with him.

The existing structures can be taken care of by the existing Hindus. But repairs or new structures are best avoided.

Wasting money on these make no sense to be honest.

 

[YeBeWarned]

I agree with him.

The existing structures can be taken care of by the existing Hindus. But repairs or new structures are best avoided.

Wasting money on these make no sense to be honest.

You agree with him on what basis ?

I would not call construction of a Temple waste of Money, trust me even from a strict worldly prospect construction of a Mandir and Gurudwara has/will brought much much need positive PR for Pakistan and Islam in General .

my suggestion go through the thread, thinking rationally and don't be hasty in your Judgement .. Trust me it working for me it will work for you too .

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

Buddy, I am not a expert but let me try answer you with whatever limited knowledge and understanding I have, I am correct Thats because of Allah who guide me, And If i am wrong its because of my own faulty understanding . May Allah forgive me ..

Ok so lets go back to the time of Prophet and his successors , when Muslims were in conquest mode they usually go to cities giving them three options such as 1) Fight 2)pay Jizya 3)Accept Islam many of the cities agree to Jizya cause that tax is far lesser than whatever their ex masters ( Byzantine and Persian ) put on them, also when Jizya is paid with a ton load of condition ( it will only be paid according to the affordability of the people or tribe ) they become Dhimmi ( or part of the people or subjects ) hence no harm or injustice can come to them .

Now on the conquest of Jerusalem , Umar ibn Khattab RA let Jews and Christians retain their places of Worship which was already there, he also let them rule with their own law , we know for a fact that Umar RA ordered a Mosque which is know as Umar Mosque but it is unclear who's funds were used , but here I am assuming that there is nothing wrong if Umar Khattab RA has used some of the funds from the Jizya collected from Jews and Christians to be used in construction of Masjid, cause its the state money and they can use as they desire as long as they are not doing corruption in it, Now Hindu and sikhs are not conquered by Muslims of Pakistan but we all get our freedom and they stayed where they were living, now they pay taxes just like us, hence we use the taxes on their needs ( we are suppose too ) and also the defense such as ( Police/Rangers/Army ) . Construction of Mandir creates a difficult paradigm because there is no example to follow, it can only be done through either Ijtihad or Ijma which these days can easily be influenced by the Fiqh or the Sarkri Mullah's .

If you ask me how would i resolved this issues , by not literally going against the fundamentals of my religion, without giving the thought of that I am encouraging Idol worshiping or supporting it, I would divide this whole project into 4 Distinct section , and cost associated with it will be divided into various sectors . Let me explain what I mean ..
1) Land, Land is basically owned by Govt, or Private people but lets assume its a Govt land, so from a Govt prospect I would give them a Free or Subsidized Land to build their temple by consensus of my ministers. If the land is privately owned, Than I would as a Govt ask them to purchase the land with whatever price the owner puts .

2) Construction, That part should be taken care of by the community themselves, through various means such as donations . For me to use Govt Funds which as per Islamic understanding is property of all Muslims and as I can not get everyone to agree to fund a temple, I would suggest them to use their own funds to construct the temple but the least I would offer is clearance for them such as water lines or electricity stuff without them paying extra such as Bribes ( its someone's God's home hence it would be disgusting to ask for bribes here ) .

3) Security, Now this is something complicated because in a country like Pakistan you can't just rely on Private security , you need govt agencies to work in with you to keep certain threats at bay, Police is equipped training and other expenses which is beard by the Govt hence Public funds so one way of another Govt is bound to get involved in the temple project, Now As a Govt I can not ask the Minority for additional funds for security because they already pay taxes, and as per the constitution we have to protect their places of worship hence we as Govt can and should provide partial security to them alone with asking them to hire some private security as well . But here one might argue that some Muslims might not be comfortable with guarding a temple that has Idols in it, cause Pakistani's are usually the Idol breaking type not the protecting Idol worshipers type ( not all of us of course ) . So the Unit or Agency that is involved in Temple security needs to be checked thoroughly about their believes and understanding of Islam, we can not put a extremists or someone with a extreme Ideas in the security of Temple cause it increase the chance of them becoming the inside man of the supposed Attackers ( God forbid ) . We have seen this in Attacks on our forces bases how a inside man who holds a sympathetic sentiments for Taliban or Terrorist version of Islam helps them in attacking the Forces .

And last,

4) Maintenance, Now obviously this expense has to be bear by the Temple Administration such as cleaning , maintaining the temple decorum , lights , paying bills ( if applicable ) , Perks such as Generators, furniture etc which they can do via many means such as our masajid do, like ask for funds and donation after every Jummah prayers . Oh yes, and here I must mentioned that the temple Administration has to make sure that funds are coming through strictly legal means and by Pakistani's , they must not accept any foreign funds from either Indian or Western Hindu's cause it can create a rift and atmosphere for conspiracy theories to be born.

I think I cover everything but if i miss anything feel free to Point it out, once again this is not Official Islamic position its just my personal understanding of things in the light of Islam I ( Personally ) understand, if I am right it is because of the guidance of Allah, if I am wrong it is from my own faulty understanding and may Allah forgive me for it ..

@AgNoStiC MuSliM @Joe Shearer @SQ8 @Pan-Islamic-Pakistan @BHarwana feel free to add anything here .

Great write-up and I agree with what you wrote, it is sensible and rational. Pakistan is a secular stste where rights of minority houses of worship are enshrined in the constitution. We cannot alter this issue without first changing the constitution.

One point is that insiders are not necessarily religious, but I would suspect RAW would be most likely to attack that Hindu temple, therefore it should be built securely and provided guards.

Furthermore, foreign actors were the major financiers, supporters, and trainers of TTP, not religious groups or Afghan Taliban. A minor point but needs to be clarified.

Pakistan become the test bed of Secularism and Religious Governing in the recent History, we are changing our course so quick that our awaam Aka People doesn't have time tp put their heads around the change ..

1980's Zia was doing his best to bring a strict rule of Shariah with the help of Local Imam and Mullah , and what was expected came true that these Religious fanatics become so powerful that they start threatening the state it self. Later Mushy was stuck between USA and the Idea of Muslim Ummah Brotherhood which we saw promoted throughout the Pakistan to Fight Soviets, people were confused either to help their brothers in Afghanistan or what ? Later on PPPP and PMLN did nothing but continued what Mush left with a label of Democracy over it, just to make some Foreign Powers feel good .. and now we have IK who is himself confused between Religion and Secularism . I am very eager which side of his prevails in the end . But i hope in the due process he does not hurt the soul of Pakistan .

It was not that our funded groups betrayed us, that is not correct. Mujahideen groups had all but vanished by the time Taliban came into Afghanistan.

Those fighting the Pakistani state were brainwashed youths from Afghanistan and Pakistan, who were used by US, Indians, and NDS to attack Pakistan for betraying Islam (and Afghanistan by siding with US forces.) Now let it sink in how clever our enemies were.

Musharraf gave our enemies the perfect recruiting tool and we lost 75,000 of our population.

 

[Desert Fox]

Yet throughout history places or worship for non Muslims were built across the Muslim world. All these Gudwaras were built during Mughal rule. The Ottoman areas are full or churches that were built in Ottoman design. Why?

LOL Ottomans and Mughals, many of the emperors sniffed cocaine and watched Mujras.

Are you really trying to compare them to the original state of Madina under the greatest man to walk this earth Prophet Muhammad (SAW)??

Building places of shirk (greatest sin in Islam) within Islamic lands is forbidden!!!!

The ones that already exist are allowed to exist on certain conditions. You can easily look this up.

As for Ottomans and Mughals and other Islamic empires that came after the Prophet (SAW) and the righteous Caliphs (RA), not always have they stayed true to the Sunnah.

@Pan-Islamic-Pakistan @Psychic @Taimur Khurram

 

[Yankee-stani]

LOL Ottomans and Mughals, many of the emperors sniffed cocaine and watched Mujras.

Are you really trying to compare them to the original state of Madina under the greatest man to walk this earth Prophet Muhammad (SAW)??

Building places of shirk (greatest sin in Islam) within Islamic lands is forbidden!!!!

The ones that already exist are allowed to exist on certain conditions. You can easily look this up.

As for Ottomans and Mughals and other Islamic empires that came after the Prophet (SAW) and the righteous Caliphs (RA), not always have they stayed true to the Sunnah.

@Pan-Islamic-Pakistan @Psychic @Taimur Khurram

Not the most ideal rulers tbh esp in the late stage what makes you think the Brits colonized South Asia easily Turks were lucky and fought back thankfully

 

[BATMAN]

Naive.

Risat e Madina promoted the freedom of religion.

What's this Riyasat Medina?
All i know, Riyasat (state) is Persian word, while Medina (city) is an Arabic word!

The Riyasat e Madina was so critical a hint in Pakistan's historical narrative and was so badly neglected.

What do you know about Riyasat Median,, will some one enlighten me, what it is all about?

 

[Joe Shearer]

What's this Riyasat Medina?
All i know, Riyasat (state) is Persian word, while Medina (city) is an Arabic word!


What do you know about Riyasat Median,, will some one enlighten me, what it is all about?

I write this in good faith, and please accept it in that spirit.

The term is a hybrid as you have rightly spotted; in the context of Pakistan, I understand that it refers to the desire to re-create the harmonious civic life at Madina, based on the constitutional situation of Madina after the invitation of Hazrat Mohammad to be the arbitrator and adjudicator in Madina. When he arrived, his first task was to stop the constant feuding among the eight tribes of Yathrib (and also the Jewish groups, also eight in number), and his solution was to draft a 'constitution' that laid down very clearly the rules under which the inhabitants, meaning the original eight tribes and the incoming Quraish from Mecca, along with the named Jewish tribes, were to live in harmony with each other.

Effectively, it gave the legal foundation for a multi-religious Islamic state.

In constitution-making, it has not received sufficient importance from western scholars, but it was an extremely effective instrument for building a peaceful and harmonious civic life between different communities living in the same city.

If you have not read about it already, you can take a first look at it in Wikipedia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Medina

Some of the existing experts on PDF will surely be able to take you to further more developed texts and authorities. What I found most interesting was the clear definition of the situation of non-Muslims:

1. The security of God is equal for all groups,
2. Non-Muslim members have the same political and cultural rights as Muslims. They have autonomy and freedom of religion.
3. Non-Muslims take up arms against the enemy of the nation and share the cost of war. There is to be no treachery between the two.
4. Non-Muslims are not obliged to take part in the Muslims' religious wars.

I hope this helps.

 

[Nilgiri]

In constitution-making, it has not received sufficient importance from western scholars,

It would need serious study by Islamic scholars (in islamic majority countries) to begin with...and then concerted application (say well past the Jews, which I believe is the context here) using it as a credible primary basis.

Only place I have seen something of this nature being done (in islamic majority without going secular/western route) on first principles in good faith basis is Indonesia (but it was not done through medina constitution way or islam-derived way...rather a real-politik way similar to the drive Ataturk did in Turkey)....though I believe in Indonesia case atheism/agnosticism is not legally accepted which I find odd.

Whereas most other Islam-majority countries simply go with the legal body found in Sharia (which names Jews and Christians as fellow monotheists in the same religious lineage aka people of the book...but leaves questions of interpretation for all other beliefs and non-beliefs)....or they have western+secular law alongside it in some way....or in case of Turkey entirely go the western route.

Maybe @saiyan0321 can give us brief summary of the medina constitution relevance/strength to a nation-state today...and if he feels there are viable routes to found a modern constitution on it's basis...that would say work soundly in the real pluralistic+secular world yet still hold strong religious credibility and affinity for islamic-majority populations.

Like what is the current debate w.r.t medina constitution and sharia given there is much more jurisprudence legacy and precedence of the latter being applied...and thus the likely bulwark it occupies naturally in islamic world for this topic that simply cannot be circumvented to a new appraisal/innovation of say the medina constitution from first principles. If this is the case, then I think its mostly conceptual exercise given this kind of thing would have to be treated seriously (and strived+applied) by large muslim populations to begin with.....before others really take notice for study and analysis.

Right now I don't see that happening (a new innovative alternative), since you have a good working compromise already with common/civil western law....and you can add personal law sharia to muslims on top if the society feels it acceptable (or say the rulers feel thats the best option).....or the other route: simply go sharia law fully.

Both these have weight of rulings and precedence in volumes...its large inertia...hard to develop and sustain something new.

 

[Psychic]

LOL Ottomans and Mughals, many of the emperors sniffed cocaine and watched Mujras.
@Pan-Islamic-Pakistan @Psychic @Taimur Khurram

Mughals were known for their drinking habits. Opium was consumed as aphrodisiac because of the availability of hundreds of concubines. They, like the Ottomans, also killed their own brothers in wars of succession.
King Akbar promoted syncretism and invented his own religion deen e ilahi which dealt a massive blow to Islam in the region.

These kings lived lavishly which is also against Islam.

But in any case, they were, (minus a few like Akbar) a thousand times better than the leaders of contemporary Muslim world who are prostrating infront of their Western masters as we speak.

. Building places of shirk (greatest sin in Islam) within Islamic lands is forbidden!!!!

I have posted that on previous pages and I was labelled as a filthy mullah, TTP, daesh, lej, estremist, fundo and all that...

The ones that already exist are allowed to exist on certain conditions. You can easily look this up.

That is too much to expect. You can take the horse to the water, but if it has made up its mind not to drink then there is nothing you could do. For them, I provided evidence in post 137 but they keep on giving excuses to build non-Muslim places of worship.