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Boeing bulllish on Chinook winning Indian competition

You might want to check what the current Mi 26 was used for in operational service in IAF and might compare if the Chinook can do the same! :no:
So the operational use is a clear point FOR and not against the Mi 26, only the maintenance was an issue, but this modernised version is by far different, so it ends up with, will Mil improve their after sale support or can we build parts of it in India to make sure maintenance is secured.

Sancho, what on earth makes you believe that the IAF wants the Chinook to do what the Mi-26 could do?? This requirement of the IAF is in line with the present operational doctrines of the IAF.

Actually; talking about all that the Mi-26 may be able to do- Were the IAF Mi-26s able to do what the M-26s were (supposedly) able to do? And most of all, whenever the IAF wanted it to do so? You won't be able to answer that just on the basis of some news reports and pictures in the media.:)
Come to think of it, leave alone the Chinook; the IAF is not even sure that the Mi-26s can do what the Mi-26 can (or should) do!
Can you tell us why the IAF even ended buying up the few Mi-26s that it did in the past? That will be revealing.
There is much more than "armchair strategic experts" really know about. Paper specifications are fine, but in the end may be just that, specifications on paper.
 
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You might want to check what the current Mi 26 was used for in operational service in IAF and might compare if the Chinook can do the same!
So the operational use is a clear point FOR and not against the Mi 26, only the maintenance was an issue, but this modernised version is by far different, so it ends up with, will Mil improve their after sale support or can we build parts of it in India to make sure maintenance is secured.
yes I am are of the effort of the Mi-26 in the BRO program's nationwide but that is pretty much because the helo could do little else with the IAF in terms of supporting frontline operations. The helo is meant to be a combat helo, if the BRO/GoI feels the need to have the use of a helo like the Mi-26 they can lease them themselves in a separate tender.
 
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isn't it a tender of heavy lift helicopter and not a tactical helicopter???also, Indian air force handled mi-26 before.maybe maintenance and spare parts are present problems,but why should india buy costly chinook when india can buy 2 mi-26 at the same price ??also a mi-26 carries 3 times more passengers,has 4 times more range,carries 2 times more weight than a chinook....so,you draw the conclusion... :coffee:
 
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Sancho, what on earth makes you believe that the IAF wants the Chinook to do what the Mi-26 could do?? This requirement of the IAF is in line with the present operational doctrines of the IAF.

The fact that they are replacing older Mi 26, so the new helicopter has to carry large loads of internal and external cargos, vehicles if possible, as many troops or passengers as possible...and in all these roles, be it in war times or peace time the Chinook is not even close to offer the same performance.
If they wanted to add tactical advantages like you often claim, they simply could have replaced some of the older Mi 8 and with the Chinook even in higher numbers than just 15, but as we both know that's not the case, because IAF wanted Mi 17 in that role!
As IAF said it since they sent out the RFI, they want a heavy lift healicopter to replace older Mi 26 fleet and that makes the purpose pretty clear!


Can you tell us why the IAF even ended buying up the few Mi-26s that it did in the past?

Because of the fall of the Soviet Union, when that happened the production of the Mi 26 was stopped, which also caused the lack of spare parts and maintenance issues. Russia now started the new T2 version, much modernised and even better than the last one.

There is much more than "armchair strategic experts" really know about. Paper specifications are fine, but in the end may be just that, specifications on paper.

Yes facts, but you have to look at it a bit more open minded, then you might see it. ;)

The fact is, that there are numerous written and visual proves for how well IAF operated Mi 26 in the heavy lift role for various different purposes, while there is nothing except the Boeing presentation of Chinook that hints on a tactical role. So when we know what IAF did in this role, why do we need to speculate about other roles? Only because the Chinook is inferior isn't? :azn:
As I saying for a long time, if spare supply and maintenance can be secured, the Mi 26 has to win, because it is a huge advantage for IAF in war scenarios, UN, disaster relief or even heavy civillian support roles to have the Mi 26T2. The Chinook on the other side will only be a minor advantange and it would be much more useful to add CV 22s along side the Mi 17s for tactical roles.


yes I am are of the effort of the Mi-26 in the BRO program's nationwide but that is pretty much because the helo could do little else with the IAF in terms of supporting frontline operations.

Ehm yes, Mi 26 was not used during Kargil conflict to carry cargo, troops, howitzers or heavy vehicles to the frontlines. It wasn't used on disaster relieft mission by IAF or to support ground bases in northern areas, at places where most fixedwing aircrafts can't land right? Buddy, a MI 26 is a VTOL MRTA! It can carry nearly the same ammount of payload, troops or vehicles but does not need an airstrip to take of and land. Having this capability in the force is a clear advantage.

This 15 will turn into 30 or even to 50 till 2020...

Not going to happen for the reasons mentioned above.

isn't it a tender of heavy lift helicopter and not a tactical helicopter???also, Indian air force handled mi-26 before.maybe maintenance and spare parts are present problems,but why should india buy costly chinook when india can buy 2 mi-26 at the same price ??also a mi-26 carries 3 times more passengers,has 4 times more range,carries 2 times more weight than a chinook....so,you draw the conclusion... :coffee:

Yes it is a HLH competition and the conclusion about performance is pretty clear for most of us, although I'm not sure about the price though.
 
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@Sancho, let's agree to disagree. The IAF are no fools, they know what they want and what they need so the confirmation of who is right will be when IAF selects whichever HLH they are going to.
 
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Boeing is the right choice the Mi-26 is good but we have bad history with Russia over spare issues the situation is so morbid that India issues global tenders for spares as a result of Russian incompetence to supply spares.
 
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The fact that they are replacing older Mi 26, so the new helicopter has to carry large loads of internal and external cargos, vehicles if possible, as many troops or passengers as possible...and in all these roles, be it in war times or peace time the Chinook is not even close to offer the same performance.

They are simply looking forward to replace the Mi-26, more often than not its been a pain in the IAF's a$$!

If they wanted to add tactical advantages like you often claim, they simply could have replaced some of the older Mi 8 and with the Chinook even in higher numbers than just 15, but as we both know that's not the case, because IAF wanted Mi 17 in that role!


Try to convince Air HQ of your theories. :)
The IAF wants to use a mix of "low end" Mi-17s and "high end" Chinooks. Can you hazard a guess at what was the serviceability factor of Mi-8s and the M-26s in the past? The IAF is wary of buying transports now that can become monuments and "gate-guardians" at traffic roundabouts! Because GoI has put more onerous responsibilities on the IAF now, especially in the Northern Sector. That is the reason why the GoI/MoD is going along with the IAF choices in recent times. You could find that to be an eye-opener.


Because of the fall of the Soviet Union, when that happened the production of the Mi 26 was stopped, which also caused the lack of spare parts and maintenance issues. Russia now started the new T2 version, much modernised and even better than the last one.

LOL. That is not the reason. The IAF bought that helo because nothing else was available to it. As it is they were struggling with the An-12s. Initially they intended that the Mi-26s would "complement" the An-12s. Soon enough they found what a lemon it was.


Yes facts, but you have to look at it a bit more open minded, then you might see it. ;)

Should you give that a thought? ;)

The fact is, that there are numerous written and visual proves for how well IAF operated Mi 26 in the heavy lift role for various different purposes, while there is nothing except the Boeing presentation of Chinook that hints on a tactical role. So when we know what IAF did in this role, why do we need to speculate about other roles? Only because the Chinook is inferior isn't? :azn:

You are still fixated in the "big is beautiful" syndrome. :)

As I saying for a long time, if spare supply and maintenance can be secured, the Mi 26 has to win, because it is a huge advantage for IAF in war scenarios, UN, disaster relief or even heavy civillian support roles to have the Mi 26T2. The Chinook on the other side will only be a minor advantange and it would be much more useful to add CV 22s along side the Mi 17s for tactical roles.

That sentence of yours says it all, reminds me of what my Trg. Offrs. used to say when we got into uniform: If my Aunty had ba11s..................



Ehm yes, Mi 26 was not used during Kargil conflict to carry cargo, troops, howitzers or heavy vehicles to the frontlines. It wasn't used on disaster relieft mission by IAF or to support ground bases in northern areas, at places where most fixedwing aircrafts can't land right? Buddy, a MI 26 is a VTOL MRTA! It can carry nearly the same ammount of payload, troops or vehicles but does not need an airstrip to take of and land. Having this capability in the force is a clear advantage.

Is that the IAFs philosophy? Aren't they slated to be the end-users of these machine?



Yes it is a HLH competition and the conclusion about performance is pretty clear for most of us, although I'm not sure about the price though.

How clear is that conclusion to the purported users, the IAF? Do not forget the eternal "Price v/s Cost" conundrum!
Sancho, got to admire your persistence.
 
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these two do not even belong in same category.. Allowing Chinook to participate with Mi-26 was a big hint.
 
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@Sancho, let's agree to disagree. The IAF are no fools, they know what they want and what they need so the confirmation of who is right will be when IAF selects whichever HLH they are going to.

Not really, because IAF never stated that they want these helicopters for tactical roles like you or Capt.Popeye believes, they are talking about an heavy lift helicopter all the time.
Also as I said, if Mil can't provide us with secured spare supply, we have to take the Chinook of course, since there is sadly no other option under evaluation. I would have prefered the CH 53, because it would be closer to our requirements and that's why even the US forces uses it as their heavy lift helicopter and not the Chinook.

Try to convince Air HQ of your theories. :)

Why, because you don't have any argument to prove yours? :smokin:

The IAF wants to use a mix of "low end" Mi-17s and "high end" Chinooks. Can you hazard a guess at what was the serviceability factor of Mi-8s and the M-26s in the past? The IAF is wary of buying transports now that can become monuments and "gate-guardians" at traffic roundabouts!

And the huge Mi 17 order counters this claim by far! Even the US have bought and leased Russian Mi 17s to be used in Pakistan and Afghanistan, because they turned out to be much better than their own helicopters in this area, especially because they could have been maintained more easily. The fact that IAF replaces Mi 8 with the upgraded version, althought service issues makes pretty clear, if the upgraded Mi 26T2 offers the same improvements, IAF would go for it as well.
You are mainly stating your own opinion here and not what IAF seems to want, otherwise you could have provided sources that IAF is searching for a tactical helicopter and to counter my points, but you can't, for the reasons I already gave.


LOL. That is not the reason. The IAF bought that helo because nothing else was available to it.

My fault, I read why IAF ended buying Mi 26.


You are still fixated in the "big is beautiful" syndrome. :)

Not really, but I take the requirements of IAF to account, not my personal.

Is that the IAFs philosophy?

Of course it is, otherwise they wouldn't have done it in the past, or had used other aircrafts. Even with more capable Mi 17s on the one side and C130s / MRTAs on the the other side now, the Mi 26 offers high capabilities in between for the northern areas, while the Chinook wouldn't. The only advantages it brings would be the tactical roles, but these are already filled and if that would have been the aim, IAF had invited the CV 22 or other tactical helicopters with these capabilities as well and not the Mi 26. That's actually a no-brainer, but as mentioned you have to look at it open-minded. :)

these two do not even belong in same category.. Allowing Chinook to participate with Mi-26 was a big hint.

They both can lift heavy loads, but while the Chinook comes at the lower end of this weight class, the Mi 26 is the upper end, that's why the performance is so different.

Where was Super Stallion when this competetion was happening?

Early reports said that it was offered as well, but shortlisted were only these 2 and we don't know any reasons why. Maybe Sikorsky offered the new Ch 53K version, that is under development only and waiting for it might be too long for IAF.
 
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And the huge Mi 17 order counters this claim by far! Even the US have bought and leased Russian Mi 17s to be used in Pakistan and Afghanistan, because they turned out to be much better than their own helicopters in this area, especially because they could have been maintained more easily. The fact that IAF replaces Mi 8 with the upgraded version, althought service issues makes pretty clear, if the upgraded Mi 26T2 offers the same improvements, IAF would go for it as well.
You are mainly stating your own opinion here and not what IAF seems to want, otherwise you could have provided sources that IAF is searching for a tactical helicopter and to counter my points, but you can't, for the reasons I already gave.


Actually the reason the US bought Afghanistan and Pakistan Mil-17/8 was not to dowith performance but cost! The fact that the US was donating these helos free of charge meant they wanted to make the deal as painless as possible. And I think the USG would find it hard to sell such a deal in respect to Pakistan, the USG aid is already in question, providing high tech Black Hawks would be a tough sale to justify.


Also you're saying the Mil-26 would behold if The Russians get their act together, that's a BIG "if". I think the Indian armed forces have been burnt enough by those fools and have seen what the West can deliver and that on time and on budget. Time and time gain the Russian f**kers have screwed the Indian defence forces over to the detriment of national security, this is their karma (not that I believe in such nonsense).


Not to mention as far as I'm concerned the CH-47F is a far better platform for the IAF which I'm sure they'll fall in love with and we'll see MUCH MORE orders after initial deliveries.
 
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Also you're saying the Mil-26 would behold if The Russians get their act together, that's a BIG "if".

Sure and I have never denied that the spare supply is an issue, but let's not forget that Russian companies has much improved since the fall of the Soviet Union, which is why Indian forces are very happy to add more MKIs, more Mi 17 to the fleet. It's not like we wouldn't know how capable and rough these arms and techs are, if they are propperly maintained right?
My point was always, for our requirements and with the clear performance difference between both helicopters, the Mi 26T2 would be the better choice!

Think about a practical scenario:

15 x Mi 26, could rapidly transport 15 x tracked or wheeled IFV+ troops, without the limitation to certain airstrips like fixedwing transport aircrafts.

20091124112031MI-26%20%284%29.JPG

mi26.jpg

Mi-26_Halo--5.jpg



In war times this will be a huge advantage to reenforce our forces and forwarded bases, or to rapidly relocate mobile forces to other places. The C130Js will be the only other aircraft that can do this in the mountain areas, since there won't be many airstripes that can operate a huge C17, while the IL 76 needes propper air bases.
The Chinook in this regard isn't much of a help at all, because be it internally or externally, it can carry only light vehicles or cargo, which makes it somewhat better than the Mi 17s, but by far inferior to the Mi 26 in this role.

humveebackinguptoMH47G.jpg
 
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