Billion+ dollar pak army empire

[Democrat-Pak]

But sadly Pakistanis have failed to live upto their dreams, rather intelectuals i would say. Pakistan keeps on looking with hope everytime a new leader takes charge or everytime a coup happens.

I think Pakistanis are real short of patience. I dont believe that any of the Pak leaders are more corrupt than their counterparts elsewhere. By criticising them and calling them hopeless and supporting a military leader eveytime he has come in power, the public in Pakistan is giving PA to do the same in future also. Its just a vicious circle.

60 years is not being patient enough?

 

[dabong1]

kasmiris seek their independence from india and pakistan, they have no loyalty to pakistan and i belive pakistan should have no loyalty to them. Our fathers and brothers died for kashmir, what a waste of precious life for poeple that should cater for themselves.

My family fought during 65/71 and kargil and are from kashmir,if thats not showing loyalty to pakistan then i dont know what is.
I think you are wrong when you say that kashmiris want to be free of india and pakistan,what they want is to have the right to vote if they want to be with pakistan,india or independence.
Please do not forget the mistakes pakiststan made like getting rid of the JKLF and replacing it with right wing islamic outfits.
Before you talk about "what a waste of precious life for poeple that should cater for themselves" do not forget more kashmiris have died during the last two and half decades then the pakistani military have fighting india.

 

[Always Neutral]

My family fought during 65/71 and kargil and are from kashmir,if thats not showing loyalty to pakistan then i dont know what is.
I think you are wrong when you say that kashmiris want to be free of india and pakistan,what they want is to have the right to vote if they want to be with pakistan,india or independence.
Please do not forget the mistakes pakiststan made like getting rid of the JKLF and replacing it with right wing islamic outfits.
Before you talk about "what a waste of precious life for poeple that should cater for themselves" do not forget more kashmiris have died during the last two and half decades then the pakistani military have fighting india.

As a Kashmiri what are your view on

The Baroness Kashmir Report which was recently tabled in the EU parliament. Its says the idea of plebcite is no more valid ?

Do you consider Jammu, Leh Ladhak to be part of Kashmir ?

What about the Northern Area and Aksai Chin with china ?

I am quite curious to know your views as a Kashmiri on these issues ?

 

[dabong1]

As a Kashmiri what are your view on
The Baroness Kashmir Report which was recently tabled in the EU parliament. Its says the idea of plebcite is no more valid ?

Nicholson's Report seems to have dismantled the ivory tower of the notions of authenticity and credibility established by vibrantly evolving history of European nations. Her 10-page long report with 44 points, containing 3611 words, goes contrary to the aspirations of Kashmiri people and replete with biases against Pakistan. It seems that she didn't go for collecting her data from original sources and put into words whatever was told to her by a group of retired officials of Indian Army (a popular belief about her report). It was natural to call the impartiality of the would-be report into question when the EU Rapporteur sought to visit only pro-Indian Kashmiris (who represent only a negligible minority) and evaded pro-liberation Kashmiri leadership (one that represents Kashmiris' overwhelming majority) for collecting data. The Report has criticized Pakistan-administered Azad Jammu and Kashmir (AJK) as a region where there are enormous deficiencies in rule of law, literacy, healthcare and democratic structures. The facts go quite contrary to the above claim. There is complete calm and peace in AJK and there is no deployment of Pakistan's Armed Forces except a limited number on the Line of Control whereas some 700,000 Indian troops are deployed in Indian- Held Kashmir (IHK), most of them in cities, towns and other populated areas. And not a single day passes without reports of troops' human rights' violations, custodial killings, protests, sit-ins, strikes, illegal detentions or fake encounters. Deplorably, the report was unable to give any reference to the draconian laws that India has enforced in occupied Kashmir to suppress its people. These laws give full impunity to Indian troops for Kashmiris' genocide. In AJK, the literacy rate is around 60% as against IHK's 54%; so is the proportion of healthcare.

Please do read the full report below.
http://www.jammu-kashmir.com/archives/archives2006/kashmir20061207a.html

The point about the "plebcite is no more valid" is such a stupid statement by the baroness who has never served in any postion of power in the UK government just shows her lack of knowledge on the subject and i am sure the UN do not need the EU telling them what parts of the resolutions they think are valid.

Do you consider Jammu, Leh Ladhak to be part of Kashmir ?

Yes

What about the Northern Area and Aksai Chin with china ?

Northern Area are Aksai Chin different and i would not class them as part of kashmir but a province on there own right.

I am quite curious to know your views as a Kashmiri on these issues ?

Bro i want AJK to join pakistan and if we can get the valley to do the same that would be great.
The most likely scenario for kashmir i think is that they will give jammu/Ladhak to india ,pakistan will keep NA and AJK and the valley will have some sort of quasi/independence.
A multi religious/racial/cultural kashmir would the best thing for all parties

 

[Always Neutral]

Thank you for your frank views. They seem quite close to ground realities. We as Europeans at this moment have no reason to doubt Baroness views since only last month the whole EU passed the same in the Parliament overwhelmingly. I can also understand the doubts of the Kashmiri's who either wish independence or to be a part of Pakistan on the report. Most of the nations of EU are very influential members of the UN eg Britain and France in security council other members like Russia will also be pro India and USA I suspect will be neutral (but secretly support India). This leaves only China and as far as Kashmir is concerned they will parrot the same like that the problem should be solved by India and Pakistan given their own vested interest in Aksai Chin as well as similiar situation in Tibet.

I think Pakistan Think Tanks presently (but secretly)also accepts that Jammu and Ladhak to be Indian and NA to be Pakistan with both adminstering their own halves of Kashmir with soft borders. EU report i suspect is a way of nudging both countries to this position as trade with EU bloc is important to both countries.

Now the Govt of Pakistan and India have only three problems to overcome

1. Convincing the people of Azad Kashmir or IOK and their own domestic populations which is going to be very hard !
2. The outsiders ( I mean foreign militants) that the Liberation of Kashmir is over so please go back to your countries. I say this from the experience of Afghanistan.
3. Agree on sharing the rivers originating there since infuture Indus Treaty will come understrain as populations grow as both economies are monsoon based.

Regards

Ps : I also forgot to add that N Sharif and B Bhutto have openly and recently declared that all agreements by the Army will be null and void when they come back to power. Sharif last week
at Hyde Park declared he will order an inquiry into Kargil so they too be needed to be taken oonboard.

 

[dabong1]

Thank you for your frank views. They seem quite close to ground realities. We as Europeans at this moment have no reason to doubt Baroness views since only last month the whole EU passed the same in the Parliament overwhelmingly..

The Foreign Affairs Committee of the European Parliament has adopted the amended Kashmir Report that now underscores the importance of the UN Resolutions of 1948 and 1949 and calls for the demilitarisation of the region.

The Committee passed the report after a marathon debate. European parliamentarians are said to have proposed over 400 amendments.

Apart from calls for demilitarisation, the amended report recognises the aspiration of the Kashmiri people for a significantly reduced military presence on both sides of the LoC." It also seeks an end to all extra-judicial killings by the Indian Army and paramilitary forces and asks the Indian Government to allow international human rights organisations to visit Jammu and Kashmir to document and monitor the human rights situation.

The initial draft report prepared by Baroness Emma Nicholson and titled “Kashmir: Present Situation and Future Prospects" had earlier come down heavily on the human rights situation in the Pakistani side of Kashmir and had also brushed aside the need for a plebiscite in Jammu and Kashmir, calling it "wholly out of step".

Only after months of intense lobbying by the Kashmir Centre EU and pressure from many members of the European Parliament did Emma Nicholson agree to the compromised amendments' that included demands like calling for an end to human rights violations and agreeing to the Kashmiris' demand for the right of self determination.

The above just goes to show the baroness was taken in by indian propaganda or is plain stupid.

I think Pakistan Think Tanks presently (but secretly)also accepts that Jammu and Ladhak to be Indian and NA to be Pakistan with both adminstering their own halves of Kashmir with soft borders. EU report i suspect is a way of nudging both countries to this position as trade with EU bloc is important to both countries...

I would also add that the EU is looking at the future and does not want to harm its relationship with india as this will be a far bigger trading parnter then pakistan.
Human rights matter to the EU but making money with human rights violators or dealing with dictators.

Now the Govt of Pakistan and India have only three problems to overcome

1. Convincing the people of Azad Kashmir or IOK and their own domestic populations which is going to be very hard !
2. The outsiders ( I mean foreign militants) that the Liberation of Kashmir is over so please go back to your countries. I say this from the experience of Afghanistan.
3. Agree on sharing the rivers originating there since infuture Indus Treaty will come understrain as populations grow as both economies are monsoon based.

Regards

Ps : I also forgot to add that N Sharif and B Bhutto have openly and recently declared that all agreements by the Army will be null and void when they come back to power. Sharif last week
at Hyde Park declared he will order an inquiry into Kargil so they too be needed to be taken oonboard.

I agree with your above points and i also think nawaz is right to have an inquiry into Kargil.I do not think that they should go back on any deal made between the army and the indian regime.

 

[Neo]

Nicholson's Report seems to have dismantled the ivory tower of the notions of authenticity and credibility established by vibrantly evolving history of European nations. Her 10-page long report with 44 points, containing 3611 words, goes contrary to the aspirations of Kashmiri people and replete with biases against Pakistan. It seems that she didn't go for collecting her data from original sources and put into words whatever was told to her by a group of retired officials of Indian Army (a popular belief about her report). It was natural to call the impartiality of the would-be report into question when the EU Rapporteur sought to visit only pro-Indian Kashmiris (who represent only a negligible minority) and evaded pro-liberation Kashmiri leadership (one that represents Kashmiris' overwhelming majority) for collecting data. The Report has criticized Pakistan-administered Azad Jammu and Kashmir (AJK) as a region where there are enormous deficiencies in rule of law, literacy, healthcare and democratic structures. The facts go quite contrary to the above claim. There is complete calm and peace in AJK and there is no deployment of Pakistan's Armed Forces except a limited number on the Line of Control whereas some 700,000 Indian troops are deployed in Indian- Held Kashmir (IHK), most of them in cities, towns and other populated areas. And not a single day passes without reports of troops' human rights' violations, custodial killings, protests, sit-ins, strikes, illegal detentions or fake encounters. Deplorably, the report was unable to give any reference to the draconian laws that India has enforced in occupied Kashmir to suppress its people. These laws give full impunity to Indian troops for Kashmiris' genocide. In AJK, the literacy rate is around 60% as against IHK's 54%; so is the proportion of healthcare.

Please do read the full report below.
http://www.jammu-kashmir.com/archives/archives2006/kashmir20061207a.html

The point about the "plebcite is no more valid" is such a stupid statement by the baroness who has never served in any postion of power in the UK government just shows her lack of knowledge on the subject and i am sure the UN do not need the EU telling them what parts of the resolutions they think are valid.

Excellent post mate!

Just want to add a little note that when EU delegation visited India prior to this report in January this year JKLF was not invited, therefor the report is onesided and incomplete, should be taken with a pinch of salt.

 

[Always Neutral]

I am not saying the report is right or wrong from anybodies point of view other than pointing out the following

1. The report was passed with 522 votes for it only 9 against it and 19 abstentations. Hence its unanimous of all countries of the EU and not just a British inspired report.

2.Once voted by the EP's plenary session, it will be adopted as a European Union report on Kashmir, which will have international ramifications, reports INEP.. The results of the vote are given above.

Please see the views of the an Iranian news paper which hopefully is neutral

http://www2.irna.ir/en/news/view/line-20/0705256387121845.htm

What I am trying to put across is that EU is very important trading partner of both Pakistan and India and hence what the EU Parliament feels will have some bearing on the future trade relations both countries wish to maintain with the EU so in some ways the report does matter.

Regards

 

[Contrarian]

Excellent post mate!

Just want to add a little note that when EU delegation visited India prior to this report in January this year JKLF was not invited, therefor the report is onesided and incomplete, should be taken with a pinch of salt.

Pinch of salt or not, if it ets adopted by the EU, then it sure carries weight.

 

[Bull]

60 years is not being patient enough?

Where you gave them a chance? Stability is one of the most imp thing a country shud have. You were throwing them out quite often. Every coup was like a 2 steps fwd and 5 steps backward.

 

[blain2]

I am not saying the report is right or wrong from anybodies point of view other than pointing out the following

1. The report was passed with 522 votes for it only 9 against it and 19 abstentations. Hence its unanimous of all countries of the EU and not just a British inspired report.

2.Once voted by the EP's plenary session, it will be adopted as a European Union report on Kashmir, which will have international ramifications, reports INEP.. The results of the vote are given above.

Please see the views of the an Iranian news paper which hopefully is neutral

http://www2.irna.ir/en/news/view/line-20/0705256387121845.htm

What I am trying to put across is that EU is very important trading partner of both Pakistan and India and hence what the EU Parliament feels will have some bearing on the future trade relations both countries wish to maintain with the EU so in some ways the report does matter.

Regards

Well in the absence of any other objective work, one report getting adopted by all of the member nations within the EU is not a measure of it being accurate or not.

The problems on the IOK side remain, as do many on the Pakistan side.

In the end, what does it matter if EU adopts this report and any resolution around it? Pakistan is not walking away from the Kashmir problem. The plebescite has been put off for now in any case. As far as claiming issues with Azad Kashmir, maybe it would do good for EU to put some more funding into the rehab. of Azad Kashmir after the EQ. I have been to Muzzafarabad and have not found suppression and lack of rule of law there to be any more or less than other parts of the country. If taken in complete objectivity, then things in Azad Kashmir are not any worse or better than other parts of Pakistan, India and BD.

 

[Adux]

Well in the absence of any other objective work, one report getting adopted by all of the member nations within the EU is not a measure of it being accurate or not.

The problems on the IOK side remain, as do many on the Pakistan side.

In the end, what does it matter if EU adopts this report and any resolution around it? Pakistan is not walking away from the Kashmir problem. The plebescite has been put off for now in any case. As far as claiming issues with Azad Kashmir, maybe it would do good for EU to put some more funding into the rehab. of Azad Kashmir after the EQ. I have been to Muzzafarabad and have not found suppression and lack of rule of law there to be any more or less than other parts of the country. If taken in complete objectivity, then things in Azad Kashmir are not any worse or better than other parts of Pakistan, India and BD.

true, a good post.
but neverthless a diplomatic defeat of pakistan stance, and EU support does count, does that change the ground situation., hardly.

 

[blain2]

true, a good post.
but neverthless a diplomatic defeat of pakistan stance, and EU support does count, does that change the ground situation., hardly.

Adux, the reality is that nobody wants to get involved in the Kashmir issue. So it will linger on regardless of what the current leadership of EU wants to believe. Objectivity would only come into this situation when something drastic happens there. Right now, neither Pakistan nor India are interesting is raising the stakes so while it may not be what Pakistan wants to hear from EU, in the scheme of things it matters little. BTW, this report from EU has only evoked a mild protest from the GoP, the Pakistani population could care less as to what EU thinks...in their minds, after many decades of sloganeering on both sides, they still believe "Kashmir bun kay rahay gaa Pakistan"

 

[Neo]

Excellent posts Blain!
In the meantime the same EU is increasing support to Pakistan in several issues:


EU Troika agrees to intensify relations with Pakistan

http://www.eu2007.de/en/News/Press_Releases/February/0208AAPakistan.html

The EU and Pakistan welcome their recent ministerial meeting, .... Additional EC support to Pakistan was provided following the events of 2001 in ...

http://ec.europa.eu/external_relations/pakistan/intro/index.htm

EU to support Pakistan for its 'courageous' stand Asian Political ...

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0WDQ/is_2001_Oct_1/ai_79580978

Italy supports Pakistan's case for FTA with EU

http://www2.irna.ir/en/news/view/menu-234/0705229876195932.htm

 

[Neo]

Conveniently left out of the discussion is EU's concern and remarks about the situation in IoK:

The House also expresses concern at "documented human rights violations by Pakistan" in Gilgit and Baltistan and at reports of torture and mistreatment, discrimination, and corruption in AJK. It also calls on the Indian government to "put an end to all practices of extrajudicial killings, 'disappearances', torture and arbitrary detention in Jammu and Kashmir," and to establish an independent commission of inquiry into serious violations of human rights by Indian security forces. MEPs call on both governments to allow international human rights groups access to the region for investigations, and stressed "the risk of maintaining the death penalty in a complex political situation" such as the one in the region, arguing for a moratorium to be established.

British speakers in the debate preceding the vote - 24 May 2007

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/...IPR06777-21-05-2007-2007-false/default_en.htm