Bid to block Pakistan F-16 sale fails in U.S. Senate

[MastanKhan]

@MastanKhan, there are definitely cons to this deal for Pakistan, and they may even outweigh the good, BUT, the number of the jets (8) and the relatively large size of the PAF F-16 fleet (now 78 when these are delivered) mean that PAF will be somewhat insulated from the eroding effects of any sanctions (and I have read that the PAF has spent tremendous amount on collecting spares...enough for 5yrs). The major issue is buying PAF enough time to field something that will replace the capability of the F-16. Frankly I see this sale as a stop gap in order to bolster its ability to get rid of legacy aircraft like F-7 and Mirage, until more Pakistan friendly aircraft can be acquired.

The fact remains the pace of JF-17 production is 16/yr. With ~65-70 inducted, you still have a huge ways to go. The acquisition of the 8 F-16s will allow PAF to raise a new sqn of F-16 by eliminating legacy aircraft. So a sqn of old F-7 or Mirages can then be replaced. If PAF spent $350 Million then its not a bad deal. BUT I would be very wary of going for many more, especially if PAF has to foot the entire bill.

Hi,

I do not have an issue with the F16 by itself---it is the finest aircraft that there is in the region---my issue is with the way the deal is being done----.

Paf should have know in advance that they would not be getting the aesa on the F16's---.

So---they should have gone ahead and procured a sqdrn strength of the J10C's with aesa---. With aesa in hand---then the U S would not be changing the balance of power---because paf already has an aesa for pakistan in the form of the J10C.

Again---if the U S still does not want to give the aesa----it would still want to give the F16's---just like the senator stated----for influence sake---.

So---you nip that influence thing right in the bud---. What you are trying to create is a situation where the term ' SANCTION ' does not even appear and it becomes a moot subject---.

So---if they had ordered a sqdrn of J10C's---what they have done is PRE-EMPTED the strike and neutered its effects.

Otherwise this deal has unfolded EXACTLY AS I PREDICTED many a weeks ago.

Paf has fallen way behind in getting new aircrafts---the 16 a year for JF17 was supposed to be 25 a year---. Paf will have to get another aircraft just to fill in the big hole---.

 

[Viper0011.]

@MastanKhan, there are definitely cons to this deal for Pakistan, and they may even outweigh the good, BUT, the number of the jets (8) and the relatively large size of the PAF F-16 fleet (now 78 when these are delivered) mean that PAF will be somewhat insulated from the eroding effects of any sanctions (and I have read that the PAF has spent tremendous amount on collecting spares...enough for 5yrs). The major issue is buying PAF enough time to field something that will replace the capability of the F-16. Frankly I see this sale as a stop gap in order to bolster its ability to get rid of legacy aircraft like F-7 and Mirage, until more Pakistan friendly aircraft can be acquired.

The fact remains the pace of JF-17 production is 16/yr. With ~65-70 inducted, you still have a huge ways to go. The acquisition of the 8 F-16s will allow PAF to raise a new sqn of F-16 by eliminating legacy aircraft. So a sqn of old F-7 or Mirages can then be replaced. If PAF spent $350 Million then its not a bad deal. BUT I would be very wary of going for many more, especially if PAF has to foot the entire bill.

I reported the Spare parts deal in a long analysis to MK, that the PAF now carries 5 years worth of spares. On F-16's, the PAF wants north of 100 F-16's (new and used). Another follow up order of 10 block 52 will be placed shortly and the PAF is currently looking into 2/3 options to acquire used F-16's with lower flying miles on the air-frame (around 16-24). So all in all, you'd see 110 F-16's. With the fleet upgrade soon to include AESA and additional composites and structural enhancements by LM, the F-16 fleet can serve the PAF all the way till 2030-2035. That's actually not bad at all. Both the JFT and the F-16 can work together to form the defensive tier II. Tier I would become the J-31 and FC-10 / J-11D (whichever option the PAF finally exercise).

Paf should have know in advance that they would not be getting the aesa on the F16's---.

So---they should have gone ahead and procured a sqdrn strength of the J10C's with aesa---. With aesa in hand---then the U S would not be changing the balance of power---because paf already has an aesa for pakistan in the form of the J10C.

Again---if the U S still does not want to give the aesa----it would still want to give the F16's---just like the senator stated----for influence sake---..

The US hasn't stopped Pakistan from getting an AESA........the funds aren't there. Also, with an AESA (being a new tech), the cost of a block 60 F-16 goes up towards $ 70 million+.....I think Pakistan will do an upgrade when a few other nations would've already done that. Meaning when the cost becomes cheaper, using the economies of scale model.

J-10C would've caused a lot of pain if inducted as one squadron, you'd have to build maintenance, service, training and all for only 1 squadron. That won't make any sense and it'll be a waste of money. If the strategy changes and the PAF wants t acquire the FC-20 in numbers, that's a different story. But 1 squadron and all the associated cost and pain would be useless.

 

[MastanKhan]

I reported the Spare parts deal in a long analysis to MK, that the PAF now carries 5 years worth of spares. On F-16's, the PAF wants north of 100 F-16's (new and used). Another follow up order of 10 block 52 will be placed shortly and the PAF is currently looking into 2/3 options to acquire used F-16's with lower flying miles on the air-frame (around 16-24). So all in all, you'd see 110 F-16's. With the fleet upgrade soon to include AESA and additional composites and structural enhancements by LM, the F-16 fleet can serve the PAF all the way till 2030-2035. That's actually not bad at all. Both the JFT and the F-16 can work together to form the defensive tier II. Tier I would become the J-31 and FC-10 / J-11D (whichever option the PAF finally exercise).



The US hasn't stopped Pakistan from getting an AESA........the funds aren't there. Also, with an AESA (being a new tech), the cost of a block 60 F-16 goes up towards $ 70 million+.....I think Pakistan will do an upgrade when a few other nations would've already done that. Meaning when the cost becomes cheaper, using the economies of scale model.

J-10C would've caused a lot of pain if inducted as one squadron, you'd have to build maintenance, service, training and all for only 1 squadron. That won't make any sense and it'll be a waste of money. If the strategy changes and the PAF wants t acquire the FC-20 in numbers, that's a different story. But 1 squadron and all the associated cost and pain would be useless.

Hi,

Basically 1 sqdrn was a start to get the things rolling and get the attention of the americans---real numbers would be like 75 aircraft minimum----,

There has to be a parallel aircraft to the F16----.

Sometimes thje 5 years time period is too short---remember the last sanctions were over 10 years and it took a catastrophic incidence to end that.

You know well that nations cannot be run like that---specially your primary weapons---.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

The indians spent a lot of money to lobby against the sale. Appears to have been a futile effort. I was confident the deal would go through. We should induct these and then focus on enhancing JF17 Thunder program further

Suicidal America is arming Pakistan | FATAH | Columnists | Opinion | Toronto Sun
you can see the smoke here,TAREK FATAH, a toronto sun writer,he just write this column recently a day or two before when US and Canadian top heads meet together,i can see today how much he is feeling pain he always write against Pakistan in toronto Sun .Tarek Tareeek hogaya

Everyone know whose payroll he is on. Isn't this the same guy who claims to be a Baloch dissident (he isn't and I know it for a fact). He's just a leftist/Marxist loser and he should consider retirement

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Seriously the Indian government seems terrified of the new 8 F16's being sold to Pakistan,They are doing everyhting in their power to stop the sale of the F16's, It seems these new F16's is denting Indian dreams of Akhand Bharat.

That dream was shattered decades ago

 

[Tank131]

Hi,

Basically 1 sqdrn was a start to get the things rolling and get the attention of the americans---real numbers would be like 75 aircraft minimum----,

There has to be a parallel aircraft to the F16----.

Sometimes thje 5 years time period is too short---remember the last sanctions were over 10 years and it took a catastrophic incidence to end that.

You know well that nations cannot be run like that---specially your primary weapons---.

Well the parallel aircraft should be the JF-17. As the aircraft recieves updates, the newer blocks will eventually replace the older blocks. If the PAF actually goes for the extra 10 F-16, then the aim for any new procurement should be to replace the F-16. It doesnt need to be 1:1 as the JF-17 as it matures will be able to take a lot of that role, but ~40-50 highly specialized advanced fighters (FC-31 most likley) should be sought to replace the older F-16s. That being said, there should also be 2-3sqn of larger 4.5+ Gen Strike Fighters and those can also replace many of the older F-16s along with JF-17. In the end (2030-2035), PAF should have almost no F-16.

250 JF-17 of varying blocks
40-50 FC-31
30-40 4.5+ Gen Strike Fighter (Typhoon, Flanker, JH-7B, etc).

 

[PakEye]

@MastanKhan
suppose if coming US Govt. impose sanctions on Pakistan and withdraw the guarantee for 30 years parts / services then how Pakistan maintain this F-16 by its own technical abilities.

 

[Tank131]

Currently they can maintain them for 5 years and after that they will need to start cannibalizing the fleet. That is why I stated that they should not pursue more F-16 than this (maybe the extra 10 but that should be it).

 

[ghazi52]

..................

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[MastanKhan]

@MastanKhan
suppose if coming US Govt. impose sanctions on Pakistan and withdraw the guarantee for 30 years parts / services then how Pakistan maintain this F-16 by its own technical abilities.

Hi,

They cannot----. The major issue is not of flight but of diminished capabilities----which means that just like your computer is running slow with a VIRUS that somehow got downloaded---.

In a similar manner----your electronic capabilities maybe reduced----the engine may not surge to full power---.

So---basically---right from day one---depends how pis-sed the US is---your F16's can become impotent---.

The 5 years parts were only good for the Blk 15's---anything coming after 2005 from the U S---they can control many a functions---.

So---basically you are at the mercy of the U S.

My problem over here is---that just like you guys---I am also sold on the F16's---& IN MY MOMENTS OF WEAKNESS---I also push for getting the F16's + other aircraft-----but the fact is that this aircraft has a lots of string attached.

Well the parallel aircraft should be the JF-17. As the aircraft recieves updates, the newer blocks will eventually replace the older blocks. If the PAF actually goes for the extra 10 F-16, then the aim for any new procurement should be to replace the F-16. It doesnt need to be 1:1 as the JF-17 as it matures will be able to take a lot of that role, but ~40-50 highly specialized advanced fighters (FC-31 most likley) should be sought to replace the older F-16s. That being said, there should also be 2-3sqn of larger 4.5+ Gen Strike Fighters and those can also replace many of the older F-16s along with JF-17. In the end (2030-2035), PAF should have almost no F-16.

250 JF-17 of varying blocks
40-50 FC-31
30-40 4.5+ Gen Strike Fighter (Typhoon, Flanker, JH-7B, etc).

Hi,

The platform needs to be parallel or of a higher standard than the F16----that is just for an aircraft to replace the need of the F16---.

The utility of the heavy strike aircraft---like a JH7B---SU34---SU35---J16---J11 has not diminished but has increased.

 

[aziqbal]

Indian beggars humiliated again for only 8 F16 ????

This is difference between Pakistan and India, when India gets AH-64, C17 and C130 and whatever else Pakistan did not lobby but when Pakistan request F16 India lobby's

Difference in mentality

Now they will do same for next 10 F16

So low of them

 

[cloud4000]

Pakistan has more than the F-16 to worry about if US ever decides to impose sanctions. All US-made equipment will be in jeopardy, including C-130s, P-3s, Cobra helicopters, etc.

Indian beggars humiliated again for only 8 F16 ????

This is difference between Pakistan and India, when India gets AH-64, C17 and C130 and whatever else Pakistan did not lobby but when Pakistan request F16 India lobby's

Difference in mentality

Now they will do same for next 10 F16

So low of them

That's not true. Pakistan often complains about India's defense purchases to whomever will listen, including the US, who they accuse of fueling an arms race in South Asia.

 

[Quwa]

Well the parallel aircraft should be the JF-17. As the aircraft recieves updates, the newer blocks will eventually replace the older blocks. If the PAF actually goes for the extra 10 F-16, then the aim for any new procurement should be to replace the F-16. It doesnt need to be 1:1 as the JF-17 as it matures will be able to take a lot of that role, but ~40-50 highly specialized advanced fighters (FC-31 most likley) should be sought to replace the older F-16s. That being said, there should also be 2-3sqn of larger 4.5+ Gen Strike Fighters and those can also replace many of the older F-16s along with JF-17. In the end (2030-2035), PAF should have almost no F-16.

250 JF-17 of varying blocks
40-50 FC-31
30-40 4.5+ Gen Strike Fighter (Typhoon, Flanker, JH-7B, etc).

Around 2025 the PAF should have a "Thunder NG" ready. Basically, they should keep investing in the program, and in time, roll out a variant that is a significant redesign of the original. Think of the Gripen NG, F-15 Silent Eagle, F-16 Block-52+, Super Hornet, MiG-35 and Su-35. This new - vastly improved - Thunder variant could phase out the older lot, and in turn, serve alongside FC-31, upgraded Block-52+, and - if possible - a heavyweight strike fighter.

 

[MastanKhan]

Around 2025 the PAF should have a "Thunder NG" ready. Basically, they should keep investing in the program, and in time, roll out a variant that is a significant redesign of the original. Think of the Gripen NG, F-15 Silent Eagle, F-16 Block-52+, Super Hornet, MiG-35 and Su-35. This new - vastly improved - Thunder variant could phase out the older lot, and in turn, serve alongside FC-31, upgraded Block-52+, and - if possible - a heavyweight strike fighter.

Hi,

I think that would be too late---I think that it should be before 2020. The NG type upgrade does not require too many modifications---.

I believe that it is a one year project---six months to a year in testing and production after a total of two years---.

 

[Tank131]

Agree with @MastanKhan. The "NG" variant needs to be in the block 4 era (size wise) but electronics of the block 3 should ve near NG level. The upgraded block 52+ would number ~36 and could serve until 2035 but beyond that, 18 would already be 20+ yrs old and should be being phased out by local jf-17 fighters and new 5th gen fighters