Best BVR Capable Fighter in South Asia

[SEAL]

Both Indian MiG-29s and Su-30s have HMCS systems. The Mirage-2Ks might have them as well, but I'm not sure.

Can you provide some details about these HMCS?

 

[silent hawk]

I am very very grateful to everyone who has added to my knowledge. One last thing that I would like to know about is the tactical data link capabilities.

The PAF block 52s have a tactical data link capability. They also have AWACS with TDL which means that the Block 52s once fully operational shall be able to use data from AWACS to acquire targets. Along with their helmet mounted cueing sytems the PAF F-16s shall be able to acquire targets while in the adversary's doppler notch and fire their AIM 120s.

Unless the Indians have a Tactical Data Link integrated with their Helmet Mounted Cueing System they shall be limited to acquiring targets within their AI cone. Does any one know if Indians have any Tactical Data Links integrated with their Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems?

 

[500]

Why would missiles with active seekers need to be guided?

Active seaker's range usually is much lower than missile's range. So they need guidance.

 

[silent hawk]

If the Indian SU-30s and Mig 29s do not have Tactical Data Links integrated with their Helmet Mounted Cueing System then

Surely the PAF block 52s with their Highoff Boresight capable AIM 120s and Tactical Data Link integrated with Helmet Mounted Cueing System must be accepted as the Best BVR Capable Fighters in South Asia.


Pakistan Zindabad

 

[GodlessBastard]

Can you provide some details about these HMCS?

The MiG-29's HMCS system was part of the original MiG-29 system, back in the early 80s. It was capable of cueing R-60 and R-73 missiles even 45 degrees off boresight. This was one of the many things that made the MiG-29 an extremely lethal dogfighter.

The Su-30 uses a similar version that has been modernized by Israeli's Elbit Systems. It is capable of firing both R-73 and R-77 missiles.

 

[GodlessBastard]

If the Indian SU-30s and Mig 29s do not have Tactical Data Links integrated with their Helmet Mounted Cueing System then

Surely the PAF block 52s with their Highoff Boresight capable AIM 120s and Tactical Data Link integrated with Helmet Mounted Cueing System must be accepted as the Best BVR Capable Fighters in South Asia.


Pakistan Zindabad

Who said Indian fighters don't have tactical data links?

 

[silent hawk]

Who said Indian fighters don't have tactical data links?

Please give us some details on Indian Tactical Data Links and their integration with Helmet mounted cueing systems in SU-30 and Mig 29.

I have already given some details of PAF Tactical Data Links. Unless some one educates us on Indian Tactical Data Links at least for this forum we must assume that Indians do not have Tactical Data Links integrated with their Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems.

 

[satishkumarcsc]

Upgrades available for Su-27/30 include the encrypted TKS-2/R-098 (Tipovyi Kompleks Svyazi) Intra Flight Data Link (IFDL) which permits the networking of up to 16 Sukhoi fighters. It is not known whether the 5U15K-11 datalink designed for networking the A-50 AWACS and MiG-31 has been adapted to the Su-27/30, or whether a unique equivalent design is used. The TKS-2 was used effectively during the 2004 Cope India exercise against US F-15Cs.
Maturity in flight control software has seen aggressive improvements in types such as the F/A-18E/F, and it is reasonable to surmise that the adoption of digital FBW controls in recent Su-30 variants will see similar evolution in the Sukhoi types - especially given the Russian obsession with close in manoeuvre performance.

Sukhoi Flankers - The Shifting Balance of Regional Air Power

 

[shrivatsa]

The first aircraft with simple HMD devices appeared for experimental purpose in the mid seventies to aid in targeting heat seeking missiles. These rudimentary devices were better described as Helmet Mounted Sights. Mirage F1AZ of the SAAF [South African Airforce] used a locally developed helmet mounted sight. This enables the pilot to make bore attacks, without having to manoeuvre until the optimum firing position. South Africa subsequently emerged as one of the pioneers and leaders in helmet mounted sight technology. The SAAF was also the first Air Force to fly the helmet sight operationally. The US Navy's Visual Target Acquisition System (VTAS), made by Honeywell Corporation was a simple mechanical "ring and bead" style sight fitted to the front of the pilot's helmet that was flown in the 1974-78 ACEVAL/AIMVAL on U.S. F-14 and F-15 fighters
VTAS received praise for its effectiveness in targeting off-boresight missiles, but the U.S. did not pursue fielding it except for integration into late model Navy F-4 Phantoms equipped with the AIM-9 Sidewinder.[1] HMDs were also introduced in helicopters during this time.
The first operational jet fighters with HMD (Mirage F1AZ) were fielded by the South African Air Force. After the South African system had been proven in combat, playing a role in downing Soviet aircraft over Angola, the Soviets embarked on a crash program to counter the technology. As a result, the MiG-29 was fielded in 1985 with an HMD and a high off-boresight weapon (AA-11 Archer/R-73), giving them an advantage in close in maneuvering engagements.
Several nations responded with programs to counter the MiG-29/HMD/AA-11 (and later Su-27) combination once its effectiveness was known, principally through access to former East German MiG-29s that were operated by the unified German Air Force.
The first successful non-Soviet HMD was the Israeli Air Force Elbit DASH series, fielded in conjunction with the Python 4, in the early 1990s. American and European fighter HMDs lagged behind, not becoming widely used until the late 1990s and early 2000s. The US-UK-Germany responded initially with a combined ASRAAM effort. Technical difficulties led to the US abandoning ASRAAM, instead funding development of the AIM-9X and the Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System in 1990.
[edit]Technology

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmet_mounted_sight

 

[shrivatsa]

double post

 

[shrivatsa]

http://vayu-sena-aux.tripod.com/thumbs/mig29-22_t.jpg

A pilot of the No.47 Sqn Black Archers photographed with an early version of the Helmet Mounted Sight (HMS). The off boresight capability was a unique feature of the MiG-29 in the entire subcontinent, before the arrival of the Su-30. Since then MiG-21 (Bison) and even the Mirage-2000 has been equipped with a HMS. Soon the Indian Navy Harriers will be upgraded with s similar system.

 

[shrivatsa]

if ya people have time then please
Rafael Python 4

 

[silent hawk]

The MiG-29's HMCS system was part of the original MiG-29 system, back in the early 80s. It was capable of cueing R-60 and R-73 missiles even 45 degrees off boresight. This was one of the many things that made the MiG-29 an extremely lethal dogfighter.

The Su-30 uses a similar version that has been modernized by Israeli's Elbit Systems. It is capable of firing both R-73 and R-77 missiles.

Acording to Godless Bastard (you may have selected a better alias) the Indian fighters have an off boresight capability of 45 degrees.

The PAF F-16s have an high off boresight capability of 60 degrees with their integrated AIs. They further have the Link 16 tactical data link which is far advanced when compared with the Indian TDLs mentioned in the forum.

The Link 16 is more advanced because it also integrates the data of the AWACs directly into the flight computer of the F-16s. The Indian TDLs on the other hand share data between fighter aircrafts.

With AWACs data being linked to F-16s through Link 16 the PAF F-16s can utilize the full High Bore Off sight capability of the AIM 120s and Launch these weapons with an off set as much as 90 degrees.

Hence after all the discussion on this topic I reiterate that

With their High bore off sight AIM 120 missiles and Link 16 Tactital Data Links integrated with the helmet mounted cueing system the PAF Block B2 F-16s have a capability of firing c-7 AMRAAMS at off boresight of as much as 90 degrees. This means that they shall have the best F-pole in any future air conflict.


The PAF Block 52 F-16 hence is the best BVR capable Fighter in South Asia.

Pakistan Zindabad

 

[SQ8]

Uhh..
I am not sure how the off boresight capability of the AIM-120 fares..
Link 16 is however.. still regarded as the best datalink operation with room for growth.

The HMS on the PG's is already linked to some sort of BVR system(probably heat seeking).. and allows for 90 degrees off boresight shots. a similar capability is in the pipeline for the JF.

It is ironic .. that for all its unmatched maneuverability..the MKI is losing the ability to utilize it effectively in a future conflict..and will have to depend on its radar, EW and long range weapons to maintain the edge.

Right now though.. there is no question in my mind that the MKI on paper.. is the best BVR fighter in south asia. Large radar, off boresight.. and most importantly.. a dedicated WSO..give it the edge in air supremacy...close in.. as chogy pointed out.. its anybody's game now.. and even a mig-21 with 5th gen is deadly to a raptor..

 

[rockstarIN]

Acording to Godless Bastard (you may have selected a better alias) the Indian fighters have an off boresight capability of 45 degrees.

The PAF F-16s have an high off boresight capability of 60 degrees with their integrated AIs. They further have the Link 16 tactical data link which is far advanced when compared with the Indian TDLs mentioned in the forum.

The Link 16 is more advanced because it also integrates the data of the AWACs directly into the flight computer of the F-16s. The Indian TDLs on the other hand share data between fighter aircrafts.

With AWACs data being linked to F-16s through Link 16 the PAF F-16s can utilize the full High Bore Off sight capability of the AIM 120s and Launch these weapons with an off set as much as 90 degrees.

Hence after all the discussion on this topic I reiterate that

With their High bore off sight AIM 120 missiles and Link 16 Tactital Data Links integrated with the helmet mounted cueing system the PAF Block B2 F-16s have a capability of firing c-7 AMRAAMS at off boresight of as much as 90 degrees. This means that they shall have the best F-pole in any future air conflict.


The PAF Block 52 F-16 hence is the best BVR capable Fighter in South Asia.

Pakistan Zindabad

The forward facing NIIP N011M Bars (Panther) is a powerful integrated passive electronically scanned array radar. The N011M is a digital multi-mode dual frequency band radar.[38] The N011M can function in air-to-air and air-to-land/sea mode simultaneously while being tied into a high-precision laser-inertial or GPS navigation system. It is equipped with a modern digital weapons control system as well as anti-jamming features. N011M has a 350 km search range and a maximum 200 km tracking range, and 60 km in the rear hemisphere.[39] The radar can track 15 air targets and engage 4 simultaneously.[39] These targets can even include cruise missiles and motionless helicopters. The Su-30MKI can function as a mini-AWACS as a director or command post for other aircraft. The target co-ordinates can be transferred automatically to at least four other aircraft. The radar can detect ground targets such as tanks at 40–50 km


Here is some capabilities of MKI RADAR & communication systems. It can work as a mini AWACS and transfer data to other 4 air crafts. Also it can track 15 targets & engage 4 at a time. Means MKI do not need to lock & unlock enemy fighters even its one of the missiles missed the targets as pointed out by Chogy. It can stay CONNECTED in the combat.

Just think of a formation of one MKI with 2 Bison & two Mig-29. The MKI can be fly not as a leader in the formation and can use its exclusive Radar to figure out the enemy air crafts at distance and tranfter the same data to the less RCS Bisons & Mig-29 to fire BVR.

One more point, MKI using Indian/Israeli avionics in MKIs, remember that Israel took out the avionics which they received from US(blk 52, same as PAF got) and fitted with their own systems, which implies that their systems anyway is better than what they have got from US.