Bernard Lewis, Iran in History

[Vinod2070]

My comment was not about historical India, but the modern Hindutva ideology which equates Indian identity with Hinduism. In any case, this thread is not about Hindutva -- I explained the context in which I mentioned it above -- so let's leave it...

I register my disagreement with your claim and agree to leave it from here.

 

[Developereo]

Speaking of Hindus, by and large they are chilled out and very tolerant.

In spite of a hard far right fringe, which was always there thanks to the advent of Islam, our community has always been protected.

The Shiv Sena in Mumbai will go out of its way to protect Parsis and our monuments, and even our property which is in the cross-hairs of unscrupulous builders.

We apreciate an open religious culture of live and let live.

I am sorry to say, but wherever Muslims become the majority, that culture is stifled to extinction. The world over.

There are various points here with which I disagree, but this thread is not about India or Hinduism, so I will leave it for now.

 

[Ottoman-Turk]

just a few quotes bu ataturk about islam quickly so vinod sees. hard to translate

i will google translate


The Turkish Nation must be more religious,
that is religious in all simplicity
I want to say. My religion, and in reality I believe, believe in this. "
-Mustafa Kemal Ataturk-


Establishment in religion is a necessary. Atheists do not allow the continuation of the nations ";" Religion is a fact and necessary.


This is last part some words couldnt translated by google translate


Our enemies, we are accused of having been under the influence of religion, and çöküşümüzü duraklamamızı attribute it, this is a mistake. Our religion is ever a time women did not demand to remain lower than men. Something ordained by God, a Muslim man and Muslim woman to train together, learning about religion. Men and women search for knowledge and education and where to go there and finds it has to be fitted. Islamic and Turkish history is examined, we feel a thousand kinds of things we were supposed to rule not connected. Scientific aspects of social life of Turkish women than men by no means back to education and training and other issues have not been seeing. Maybe you have gone further. "

BUT HE IS SAYING RELIGION/ISLAM IS VERY IMPORTANT BUT NOT EXTREME VERSION WHERE WOMEN ARE NOT EQUAL TO MEN AND WHERE IT AFFECTS POLITICS ALL THE TIME , A LIBERAL ONE WHERE EVERYONE PRACTICES RELIGION WITHIN THEMSELVES AND FREELY.

 

[Vinod2070]

just a few quotes bu ataturk about islam quickly so vinod sees. hard to translate
---

Thanks for sharing.

As we can see, there are comments (on both sides of the pond) and then there are actions.

Politicians know how to play both sides of the fence at the same time as and when they need. His actions more than his words (banning certain dresses, change of script and many more that I don't need to list here) show that he really felt that Turkey can be a modern nation if it makes a clean break with the past.

Your nation has been more allied with the Westerners than your Eastern neighbors ever since for a reason.

Again, thanks for sharing your perspective.

 

[vsdoc]

Ottoman-Turk, frankly I think you guys have it right as far as the religion and state is concerned.

I am fascinated by Turkey, but wholly ignorant of its demographics.

What percentage of you guys are muslim and what is the shia/sunni mix?

 

[Ottoman-Turk]

96-99% muslim , 26,000 jews( sephardi) , 120,000 christians ( greeks etc) in this 96-99% muslim around 15% is alevi / shia / sufi etc

official ( got it from wiki)

similar also in some other sources

 

[vsdoc]

So you guys are basically a Sunni state?

Does that lend itself to art of the antagonism with Iranians or is it purely historical racial/cultural/military baggage?

 

[Ottoman-Turk]

52.8% defined themselves as "a religious person who strives to fulfill religious obligations" (Religious)
34.3 % defined themselves as "“a believer who does not fulfill religious obligations" (Believer).
9.7% defined themselves as "a fully devout person fulfilling all religious obligations" (Fully devout).
2.3% defined themselves as "someone who does not believe in religious obligations" (Non-believer).
0.9% defined themselves as "someone with no religious conviction" (Atheist).

This is our tolerance in History especially Ottoman Millet System.

Ottoman Sultan Mehmed the Conqueror and Greek Orthodox Patriarch Gennadios II. Mehmed II not only allowed the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople to remain active in the city after its conquest by the Ottoman Turks in 1453, he also established the Armenian Patriarchate of Constantinople in 1461, as part of the Millet system. The Byzantines used to regard the Armenian Church as heretic and didn't allow it to operate inside the Walls of Constantinople.

So you guys are basically a Sunni state?

Does that lend itself to art of the antagonism with Iranians or is it purely historical racial/cultural/military baggage?

I didnt 100% understand what you mean but most turkic states today are Muslim and all ( AFAIK) are secular.

 

[vsdoc]

We know so little of the history of your part of the world man. The British Museum has really fantastic sections on Turkey and Ancient Iran which I would love to spend some time on the next time I am there.

 

[Surenas]

This thread is not about Turkey nor about Ottomans. Don't go off topic.

 

[vsdoc]

I didnt 100% understand what you mean but most turkic states today are Muslim and all ( AFAIK) are secular.

Secular has very different connotations when 99% of your population belongs to a single faith. But the thought and sentiment is appreciated.

P.S. Surenas stop acting the ad hoc mod and getting your Dutch chaddis all knotted up.

 

[Ottoman-Turk]

We know so little of the history of your part of the world man. The British Museum has really Turkey and Ancient Iran which I would love to spend some time on the next time I am there.

There was a thing just about Ottoman Empire in British musuem i went to see before , many people who have abit of interest in politics and history will know ottoman empire or other turk empires , a muslim who knows abit of history or even the ones who dont know much will know ottoman empire and wont really know about other turk history etc , but muslim asians e.g bangladesh or pakistanis who are 20+ older will usually always know it and they respect it alot especially some as much as us.

This thread is not about Turkey nor about Ottomans. Don't go off topic.

The thread did go off topic many times but you are free to go back on topic , when we speak anything turkish you complex starts appearing.

 

[Surenas]

The thread did go off topic many times but you are free to go back on topic , when we speak anything turkish you complex starts appearing.

It's not about a complex, but about the fact that in every (historical) Iranian topic you bring this whole Ottoman obsession into the front. If you had came here and made useful contributions to this subject than you wouldn't here me complaining. Stop going off topic.

 

[Surenas]

The thread did go off topic many times but you are free to go back on topic , when we speak anything turkish you complex starts appearing.

It's not about a complex, but about the fact that in every (historical) Iranian topic you bring this whole Ottoman obsession into the front. If you had came here and made useful contributions to this subject than you wouldn't here me complaining. Stop going off topic.

 

[Bhairava]

Two ancient civilizations, India and China, have re-risen and are re-capturing their annointed place in the world.

When will Persia rise again?

Will Persia rise again?

Does Persia want to rise again?

I may sound pessimist, but even Persian civilization may rise, but I dont have the same hope for the Indian 'civilization'.