Bangladesh to China ordered 16 F-7BGI light fighter

[Major Shaheb]

well
i have heard no one claiming that jf-17 is less than 4th gen(chines 3rd gen) aircraft..except indian fanboys..

the desgn and avionics itself tells the story..u cant expect BVRs in 3rd gen aircrafts..

anyway i have said number of times thats its impossible atleast in the current govt to buy anything even remotely attached to pakistan..

anyway f-7 desicion is a good one as operating mig29 and j-10 are costly and require expetise to induct new palteforms..jf-17 would have been an excellent option but...politics...

Yeah right!!!, a 3++ generation aircraft that failed to get a single customer, with $20mln+ pricetag, did not even been able to enter service with the primary builder, and even failed as a stop-gap aircraft, would have been an excellent option. oh sorry, u mentioned, all of the above happened because of politics.

 

[Major Shaheb]

If F-7 is BVR capable, what missile does it fire?

PL-12 idiot.

 

[kobiraaz]

major R u related to Bangladesh air force??? Working there?

---------- Post added at 12:31 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:29 AM ----------

Yeah right!!!, a 3++ generation aircraft that failed to get a single customer, with $20mln+ pricetag, did not even been able to enter service with the primary builder, and even failed as a stop-gap aircraft, would have been an excellent option. oh sorry, u mentioned, all of the above happened because of politics.

Jf17 needs more time. It is not prepared yet....

 

[MiG-21]

Hmm... doesn't F-7BG have KLJ-6E Non- bvr radar..
http://www.defence.pk/forums/bangla...ladesh-air-forces-f-7bg-poor-mans-f-16-a.html

Would be helpful if you can provide a link to KLJ-6F on F-7BG, Major saheb.

Would be interesting to compare it with Bisons if the F variant is indeed on F-7BG. *rubs hands with glee*

 

[Emmie]

@emmie
It ain't no personal attack when I'm just telling you who you are. Implying all those Aircraft are useless against the MiG-21.. when I never said such a thing. Is that another one of those lame jokes?

Why is it so hard for you to accept the MiG-21 has advantages over JF-17 in certain interception scenarios? Why is it so hard for you to accept that a MiG-21 if outgunned can use its speed as its defense and make a tactical retreat out of the hot-zone, far better than the JF-17. Why can't such a situation be compared with a JF-17? JF-17 will never face such a situation according to you?
Or are you implying multirole fighters don't have much speed because they have to concentrate on other capabilities? MiG-29 has both speed and multirole capabilities. So does the Su-27 & the F-15. Hell even the single engined multirole Gripen & Mirage-2000 has both. Just because JF-17 doesn't have speed, suddenly speed became a non-issue? USAF was so concerned about the time spent during a mission in the hostile hot zone, they asked the designers to make F-22 raptor's speed high and at the same time fuel efficient. Hence super cruise was born. F-22 can reach 1.8M without using afterburners. With afterburners, it can reach 2.25M. I guess everyone are morons then, and only JF-17's designers and it's fanboys are right in keeping JF-17s speed low.

Listen mate as I have said earlier speed is not only a factor that determines an aircraft’s capability. JFT in comparison to Mig-21 definitely has a lower speed but this so-called issue does not exclusively entertain JFT, there are other aircrafts like F-35, Su-30MKI, Hornet, Rafale who suffer this alleged defect. If speed was everything then the west must have had made blunders toward their jets. The fact is above mentioned a/cs are much much much superior to Mig-21 by every aspect. They have longer range, advance armaments, advance avionics, superior design which enhances their maneuverability. Their radars would detect Mig-21 from hundreds of Kms and would destroy it by a BVR missile without even going near to it, Mig-21 wouldn’t even have any idea about the situation. So comparing Mig-21 with JFT or with any other aircraft absolutely makes no sense.
If Mig-21 is still that good as you are portraying then it’s very stupid on IAF and PAF parts for having intentions of replacing it with Tejas and JFT respectively.
P.S: I am not at sensitive to JFT… Your demeanor towards JFT entices people including to come that way, every single point of yours revolves around JFT…

And Yeah, your previous post was attacking…

 

[eastwatch]

This is not a thread about comparison of F-7BGI with JF Thunder or any other planes. I am sending herewith the Janes report for others to read. It and other sources imply that F-7BGI will be a different/distinct plane with a look quite different from earlier versions and with enhanced functions.

However, no one knows yet if there will be two additional hardpoints over its present five. The plane is certainly a BVR capable one. I have already posted its technical specifications that completely support its BVR capability. I hope it will have a higher loading capacity and a higher T/W ratio. I will post any information that I lay hand on.

I hope, after reading the Jane's report, posters will get rid of their apprehension about this BGIs, 16 units of which will be inducted by the BAF. The Jane's also quotes BAF Chief as saying that BAF will induct another 3 sq. of planes after 2020. These will certainly be 4.5++ generation planes.

Because BAF wants to induct a much higher quality planes in the future, therefore, this time it is buying 3+ generation BGIs and did not induct planes like 3++ generation FC-1/JFT. I think, negotiations have already been started in this regard, because fighter planes need time to build. Thanks.

http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6115/6390072521_15fe02a020_b.jpg

 

[eastwatch]

If F-7 is BVR capable, what missile does it fire?

You must have a weird mind. You are sticking to the words F-7, and not to F-7MB, F-7BG or F-7BGI. Even F-7BG is BVR capable, but from the very beginning you are propagating that BGI will not be BVR capable. Where the hell do you get your information? Learn to differentiate among the grades of planes.


F-7BG Multirole Fighter Aircraft

The F-7BG is a multirole BVR capable aircraft manufactured by Chengdu Aircraft Corporation, China. It was especially built to meet Bangladesh Air Force's requirements for a cost-effective multi role fighter. It is said to be the most advanced version of the F-7 combat aircraft to date.

Development

Dubbed “F-7BG” the fighter is capable of performing all weather, day/night air defence operations and ground attack with a new range of armaments and avionics that set it apart from the other F-7MBs that have been in service since 1989.

At present 16 F-7BGs are in the BAF’s inventory and have been in service since 2006 though it intends to procure up to 70 more BVR-capable F-7BGs in total to strengthen its interception capabilities.

Compared to the older generation F-7MBs, the F-7BGs feature a large array of improvements as listed below.

Major improvements

The F-7BG airframe has essentially the same F-7MB fuselage, inner wing portion, tail plane and fin. The outer wing section incorporates the major change, with a reduced 42 deg sweep and automatic manoeuvring flaps. The F-7BG is powered with an improved and more powerful WP-13 engine, Liyang (LMC) WP-13F (R-13-300) turbojet rated at 44.1kN dry and 66.7kN with afterburning. Additionally, cockpit layout, avionics and several ancillary systems have been changed, in line with modern trends. The important systems that remain unchanged (compared to the J-7E) are the fuel system, weapons payload capacity and internal guns.

 

[Zabaniyah]

Thank God! you did not compare JF-17block1 with F-16block62, coz some of your Pakistani brothers already claimed that JF-17block1 is superior to F-16block52.

And uh, who are these imaginary Pakistanis who claimed that?

PL-12 idiot.

Proof? PL-12's export designation is SD-10A.

You must have a weird mind. You are sticking to the words F-7, and not to F-7MB, F-7BG or F-7BGI. Even F-7BG is BVR capable, but from the very beginning you are propagating that BGI will not be BVR capable. Where the hell do you get your information? Learn to differentiate among the grades of planes.

Nope. I am only asking for evidence.

F-7BG Multirole Fighter Aircraft

The F-7BG is a multirole BVR capable aircraft manufactured by Chengdu Aircraft Corporation, China. It was especially built to meet Bangladesh Air Force's requirements for a cost-effective multi role fighter. It is said to be the most advanced version of the F-7 combat aircraft to date.

Development

Dubbed “F-7BG” the fighter is capable of performing all weather, day/night air defence operations and ground attack with a new range of armaments and avionics that set it apart from the other F-7MBs that have been in service since 1989.

At present 16 F-7BGs are in the BAF’s inventory and have been in service since 2006 though it intends to procure up to 70 more BVR-capable F-7BGs in total to strengthen its interception capabilities.

Compared to the older generation F-7MBs, the F-7BGs feature a large array of improvements as listed below.

Major improvements

The F-7BG airframe has essentially the same F-7MB fuselage, inner wing portion, tail plane and fin. The outer wing section incorporates the major change, with a reduced 42 deg sweep and automatic manoeuvring flaps. The F-7BG is powered with an improved and more powerful WP-13 engine, Liyang (LMC) WP-13F (R-13-300) turbojet rated at 44.1kN dry and 66.7kN with afterburning. Additionally, cockpit layout, avionics and several ancillary systems have been changed, in line with modern trends. The important systems that remain unchanged (compared to the J-7E) are the fuel system, weapons payload capacity and internal guns.

Sources? Where does it say that BAF actively uses SD-10A?

Here is the Jane's report:

LONDON November 20, 2007: According to “Jane’s Defense Weekly” website reported on November 17, Bangladesh has Not long ago, the Chinese ordered 16 F-7BGI fighter. Air Force Commander, General Meng Zi Ao Rahman recently attended an international conference in London announced that the newly purchased 16 F-7BGI delivery from 2012 onwards. However, he did not disclose the specific parties involved in the transaction amount. Presumably, these new aircraft will be deployed near the capital located in Meng Assad Air Base Squadron 21 for replacement of old equipment, A-5C attack aircraft.
F-7BGI is the latest model MiG-21 family, from China’s Chengdu Aircraft Industrial Group F-7 previously developed improvements made. Ziao Rahman said the general description, these new aircraft will be equipped with improved onboard systems, including “hands on the bar” control device (HOTAS), three multi-function displays and a HUD. The machine also has the ability to use guided weapons, the use of GPS signals to transmit high-precision air-guided bombs. Since its inception in the 1950s, MiG-21 has become the largest global production after World War II as a fighter, but the Chinese F-7BGI new orders received, making the production of MiG-21 series aircraft will be able to last until 2012 .
Bangladesh Air Force has long been China Series F-7 fighter one of the major users. Since 1989, the country has imported 44 batches of the type of aircraft, including 16 F-7MB and 16 F-BG fighter, 8 FT-7MB and four FT-7BG trainer. According to statistics, is still serving Meng Air Force F-7 series aircraft a total of 31, were deployed in Dhaka – 库尔米托拉 Air Force Base.
air force commander said Meng, Meng purchase F-7BGI just before the Air Force in the new generation of fighter aircraft transitional measures. According to the plan, Meng Air Force will be purchased in the last 13-15 years, 20-32 new fighter aircraft, and most likely to be selected models, including the United States Lockheed Martin F-16, Russia’s MiG-29SMT and Su-30, and the Swedish Saab JAS-39 and so on.
In addition, the Bangladesh Air Force will purchase a number of new trainer aircraft, used to replace the existing fleet of L-39, while in 1999, equipped with 10 Russian-made MiG-29 fighters will also be upgraded in the coming years. (Compass)

Source: Bangladesh ordered 16 F-7BGI used to replace the old A-5C attack aircraft « Military of China, force comment.

The only evidence I see is that the MiG-29s are BVR capable in the BAF. That includes R-27s and RVVs.

Nowhere does it say that the F-7BGI is BVR capable. And since it is going to replace the A-5s, it can be safely assumed that the BGI is in fact more suited for CAS operations. That is, it has more potent ground attack capabilities compared to other variants.

I Google "F-7BGI is BVR capable". And this thread is the only result I get!

Again, I ask for evidence. Not mere hearsay.

@Members, is the F-7PG capable of firing the SD-10?

 

[MiG-21]

^Neither F-7PG nor BG can fire BVR missiles.

Listen mate as I have said earlier speed is not only a factor that determines an aircraft’s capability. JFT in comparison to Mig-21 definitely has a lower speed but this so-called issue does not exclusively entertain JFT, there are other aircrafts like F-35, Su-30MKI, Hornet, Rafale who suffer this alleged defect. If speed was everything then the west must have had made blunders toward their jets. The fact is above mentioned a/cs are much much much superior to Mig-21 by every aspect. They have longer range, advance armaments, advance avionics, superior design which enhances their maneuverability. Their radars would detect Mig-21 from hundreds of Kms and would destroy it by a BVR missile without even going near to it, Mig-21 wouldn’t even have any idea about the situation. So comparing Mig-21 with JFT or with any other aircraft absolutely makes no sense.
If Mig-21 is still that good as you are portraying then it’s very stupid on IAF and PAF parts for having intentions of replacing it with Tejas and JFT respectively.
P.S: I am not at sensitive to JFT… Your demeanor towards JFT entices people including to come that way, every single point of yours revolves around JFT…

And Yeah, your previous post was attacking…

That is what I've been saying as well. If the MiG-21 goes to engage those fighters head on, then it will get killed. All this started because I've said MiG-21 has higher speeds than JFT, and continued that having speed has its own advantages in certain interception and tactical-retreat conditions. And that is not wrong. If having speed is useless in this BVR era, then F-22 designers wouldn't have bothered with it. The fact that they did, and even improved(super cruise) on that aspect tells the story on its importance. If having speed is useless in this BVR era, then the russians wouldn't have bothered with their own super cruise in their T-50 5th generation fighter. All this says a lot on the importance of having speed.

 

[Zabaniyah]

I haven't seen a single picture or video of a JF-17 firing an SD-10 missile. This tells us that it still hasn't completed its systems integration phase which will all be complete by the middle of next year.

How would any F-7 do that? Capable of firing an SD-10? I am confused. This is the only thread that comes up after Google search!

People, understand this:
The grifo 7 radar is designed to fit in the F-7s nose. If you see F-7 carefully, it has a small room for the radar, so PAF had encountered difficulty in finding a good radar for F-7s .

For an advanced radar, you need a bigger room.

The Mig-21 on the other hand has a bigger nose. Hence, it can easily house a radar for BVR capability example. Mig-21 Bison.

Yes, there are minor but important differences between the F-7 and MiG-21

The Mirage has an advanced version of griffo as compared to Griffo7, it has been designated as Griffo M (M for mirage ie specially designed for it).

I m telling you by quoting a reliable reference. If there were any remote chances of F-7 capable of launching BVRs then PAF must had been conducted the tests.

Go search, see the live firing exercises, F-7 can only be seen strafing and firing infrared A-A missiles.

 

[eastwatch]

Source: Bangladesh ordered 16 F-7BGI used to replace the old A-5C attack aircraft « Military of China, force comment.

The only evidence I see is that the MiG-29s are BVR capable in the BAF. That includes R-27s and RVVs.

Nowhere does it say that the F-7BGI is BVR capable. And since it is going to replace the A-5s, it can be safely assumed that the BGI is in fact more suited for CAS operations. That is, it has more potent ground attack capabilities compared to other variants.

I Google "F-7BGI is BVR capable". And this thread is the only result I get!

Again, I ask for evidence. Not mere hearsay.

@Members, is the F-7PG capable of firing the SD-10?

What more spoon-feeding evidence do you need to know that BGI is a BVR capable plane? Haven't you read through the links in the post Nos. 296 and 321? Or you have problem with English comprehension? Better go back to KG and learn how to understand English. You must be the stupidiest of all the posters. You come out of your way to support Indian biased views in all of the threads. Now, you are coming here to prove a Pakistani position that BGI is not BVR capable.

This is a defence forum. A citizen of BD is supposed to endorse a CORRECT statement with regard to his country's military matters. But, you are just like an open legged prostitute waiting for other countries' posters to f::: you. You enjoy it, no doubt. But, before you post again learn another basic of a defence Forum. A citizen must stick to the defence of his motherland. Learn the basics, you idiot Thailandian!

 

[MiG-21]

Yea, F-7PG/BG nose is too small to be able house a powerful BVR compatible radar. The radar nose cone size difference between PG - BG, and Bison is clearly visible.

PAF mirages can use a bvr missile compatible radar, but there is no proof that it has that capability. It's been said that since the mirages are so old and to be retired soon, PAF chose not undertake the costly BVR A-A missile upgrade.

 

[Zabaniyah]

You know eastwatch, that's funny coming from one of the oldest persons here

Insults aside...

Let's have a look at your post# 296:

This was source? Yes?
J-7 / F-7 - Airforce Technology

Let's see what they have to say about Bangladesh:

The Bangladeshi Air Force purchased 16 F-7MB, 16 F-7BG and eight FT-7B aircraft. These F-7MB aircraft will be replaced with 100 beyond visual range-capable F-7BGs by 2010.

The year 2010 has already passed. Since when did Bangladesh come up 100 F-7BGs? Is the source reliable as far a Bangladesh goes?

Post #321:
http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6115/6390072521_15fe02a020_b.jpg

Where in the article does it say that the BGI will be BVR capable?

Here's what it says regarding the F-7BGI:

The new variant has been fitted with improved avionics that includes hands-on-throttle-and-stick (HOTAS), three multi-function displays and a head-up display. They can be equipped with both air-to-air missiles and GPS guided munitions.

This article was already posted by the OP.

HOTAS:

HOTAS, an abbreviation for Hands On Throttle-And-Stick, is the name given to the concept of placing buttons and switches on the throttle stick and flight control stick in an aircraft's cockpit, allowing the pilot to access vital cockpit functions and fly the aircraft without having to remove his hands from the throttle and flight controls. Application of the concept was pioneered by the English Electric Lightning and is widely used on all modern fighter aircraft such as the F-16 Fighting Falcon.

You see if you read the article carefully, the key feature of the F-7BGI is the ability to carry GPS guided munitions. This is something that neither the F-7MB nor the F-7BG had.

This F-7BGI is intended to replace the aging A-5s for that very purpose - advanced ground attack.

The F-7BG may have some potential to fire BVR missiles, but is Bangladesh an active user of the SD-10 missile? It usually isn't cost effective to fit a missile like that on such a limited platform.

Show me one picture ANY F-7 variant firing the SD-10A, and then I'll believe you

SD-10 fitted on J-10:

JF-17 firing a PL-5 missile (infrared guided):

You see, not even the JF-17 isn't fully integrated enough (yet) to fire the particular missile (SD-10) in focus. Just how would an F-7 fire a missile like SD-10?

And please, I respectfully request you not to base it on mere assumptions and hearsay. Just hard facts. My request is simple.

 

[eastwatch]

Yea, F-7PG/BG nose is too small to be able house a powerful BVR compatible radar. The radar nose cone size difference between PG - BG, and Bison is clearly visible.

PAF mirages can use a bvr missile compatible radar, but there is no proof that it has that capability. It's been said that since the mirages are so old and to be retired soon, PAF chose not undertake the costly BVR A-A missile upgrade.

BGI will look quite different from other F-7 variants in order to accomodate BVR. So, its frame and nose will get modifications. It may also look different from F-7 family's other variants. Since China produces PL-12/SD10 AAMs, therefore, BGI hard points will be able to fit this missile. Note that Pl-12 and SD-10, these two designations stand for the same missile. PL-12/SD-10 missiles have been fitted with Pakistan's JFTs.

I hope two more hard points are added and the oil tank capacity is enlarged so as to allow this plane go a farther distance. We will know about the changed specifications when they are declassified or when the plane arrives in BD.

 

[Areesh]

@Members, is the F-7PG capable of firing the SD-10?

I don't think so. Most probably PAF F-7 pg are capable of firing H2, H4 BVR glide bombs.