Bangladesh to China ordered 16 F-7BGI light fighter

[Lighting_Fighter]

The F-7BGI are there for the short run. Of-course in the long-run, it'll go for more advanced aircraft throughout the decade and after.

The two primary candidates are the MiG-29SMT and the F-16 (block unknown). Two others like the Gripen and SU-30 may join the tender.

It's funny that the Americans are now offering us the F-16

It's prudent that Bangladesh upgrade its current fleet of MiG-29SEs to SMT standards.

Why US offering its F-16? I bet they are used up. Ok if US offering F-16 why not get new ones from Turkey if not US ones are used?

 

[Lighting_Fighter]

most of us are thinking that bangladesh should have gone for lower quantity and better quality.
f-7 has serious draw backs to be operated in this century. lack of fly by wire, no bvr capablites is not a good thing in this century. it also lack a true multirole capability.

lastly i dont agree that f-7 are true BVR capable thats because the limitation of the Grifo radar used on them which has less detection range and search capability as well as azimuth capability of 30 degrees results in their inability to fully utilize a decent bvr missile.

I have a question F-7BG, are they BVR capable? I heard they are. If F-7BG can be BVR capable then I am sure F-7BGI will be too, right guys?

 

[Zabaniyah]

Why US offering its F-16? I bet they are used up. Ok if US offering F-16 why not get new ones from Turkey if not US ones are used?

The ones manufactured in Turkey are not for export, the Americans don't allow that. And only for use by TuAF. But, they can perform MLU.

If the Americans are offering used F-16s, refurbishing them would cost ~$50 million for export orders.

Yeah, the Americans did refuse to offer F-16s back in the 80s and 90s after repeated requests. But now, it's different.

I have a question F-7BG, are they BVR capable? I heard they are. If F-7BG can be BVR capable then I am sure F-7BGI will be too, right guys?

Read post# 370.

 

[ziaulislam]

thats a interesting question. why to waste money now. they should think of inducting used f-16s, gripen or mig 29 now.
even if its in lesser number, as there is no potent threat to Bangladesh in future near or distant.

bangladesh doesnt has a good experience with mig29 due to cost of operation, it even offered its migs for sale in 2002.
so better go for gripen, as f-16 used ones will have little life left upon them. and new ones are too expensive.
recently thailand went for 1.2 billion deal of 12 gripen and 2 saab 340 AWACS.
i think this package itself is sufficient for all needs of bangladesh this along with its migs and current f-7.
i think bangladesh should think on lines of Thailand though they have more security issues.

that is if they are not interested in the thunder.

Zabaniya, F-7s are not fully BVR capable due to limited azimuth of only +/-30 degree. search and track are not the only thing to consider in BVR cpablities.

 

[Luftwaffe]

Lets not fight why BAF did not go for JF-17, BAF must have their own long term modernization plan.

The question Are F-16s a good choice in 2020+ beyond, will US offer AESA, will US offer AMRAAM (unlikely due to indian pressure), Gripen is not cheap and stands equally in cost to the F-16 block 52 though gripen NG could be on offer but with strings attached US Engine+us missiles. Remember According to Swedish DOD they will regularly visit to keep check on gripens in Thailand you may read it online from reliable websites.

Can BAF spend this much on 16 F-16s
- 16 New F-16 Block 50/52s – $1.38B or more
- Weapons for the New F-16s – $?
- F-16 Mid-Life Update Modification Kits – around $500M for 16 F-16s (MLU block 32 to block 50 F-16s in US Storage)
- F-16 Block 30/32 Engine Modifications – around $120-$130M
- All Setup, all necessary equipment, training etc - $?
- Total cost = more then $2B as much as $2.3B?

Thailand Purchased 12 Gripens + 2 Saab AEW&C the total cost of procurement is around $2B-$2.2B

Suppose...JF-17 Blk II and 1 Y-8 AEW&C at say $24M (Block II AESA against non AESA Gripen) X 16 + 1 Y-8 AEW&C = appx $385M Add a $115M total complete package-setup-associated costs = $500M for satisfaction make it $550M

Which one do you think is feasible cost effective solution, you decide, but in the end it is BAF to decide not forums so I would ask members to zip up mouths against each other.

 

[Emmie]

As I have said in my earlier post, BGI will be order made. BAF knows very well that it has to wait another 9 years to get two sqs. of 4.5++ planes. So, it must have already talked with the Chinese to improve the functions of BGIs. At present, all variants of F-7 have 5 hard points. But, BGI's two wing ends can be fitted with two more hardpoints, so that it can carry also SD-10 BVR missiles.

If this increases the total imposed loads of the plane, then it can be fitted with a much stronger WP-14 turbojet or some other engine instead of the present WP-13. In this way, the climbing rate, that stands at 150m/sec, will not be compromised.

I have read materials that say unlike other F-7 variants BGI will be BVR capable. There will be many other additional amenities in this plane. So, I presume that BGI nose will be modified to fit in the BVR. There will certainly be other modifications as per requirements of BAF. We all will know the changes and modifications when the planes arrive in BD one by one next year.

Well, if that is the case then you must order the variant which got cancelled back in 2000/2002, J-7MF/J-7FS. J-7FS was a technology demonstrator, it tested a chin inlet arrangement. It had a highly modified nose to accommodate a more powerful radar, used a powerful engine, equiped with advance avionics and modern armament control system. As the aircraft was designed to test the concept of long term fighter, a new project for the aircraft "J-7MF" with more alters in design came into existence. No prototype of J-7 MF ever built because Chinese terminated this project in favour of JF-17. For J-7MF you'll have to wait for at least half a decade becuase it takes years to make a new aircraft fully operational. J-7MF perfectly meets the demands you refered to in above quoted part.

Current struture of the nose cannot be modified to a great deal becuase of the presence of inlet, you can't constrict the inlet. For a radar fully capable for BVR engagement you need to have large space in nose, current space in nose does not allow a radar like KLJ-7. Unless you set apart nose from inlet you simply cannot configure a powerful radar.

JF-17 seems to be a better plane, but BAF will spend the same money to buy three BGIs instead of only one JFT. BAF inventory does not have good number of planes. It needs a good number to keep its pilots busy with flying training. Moreover, it seems much of the functions that can be carried by JFTs can also be carried by BGIs. Do not get swayed by the name F-7, because BGI will be different, by look and also in functionality.

For another matter, instead of inducting FC-1 planes, China is opting for F-7 variants that will work side by side with its J-10 and J-20 planes. China will not dispose off its F-7s in order to induct FC-1. Rather, China has already decided to operate F-7 alongside other 4.5++ planes. So, how can anyone just dismiss the F-7BGIs as very inferior planes?

I am afraid you are mistaken here, a third generation aircraft cannot stand next to a fourth or fifth generation aircraft especially in an AF like PLAAF. There's no comparison between a third generation aircraft and a fourth or fifth generation aircraft. PLAAF has officially withdrawn its J-7s from first line service. They stopped the production for PLAAF back in 2008, now gradually replacing older birds with J10 mainly. They have so many options available to them in the form of J10/J10B, J11/J11A/J11B, FC-1 etc etc..

The most advanced variant of J-7 which PLAAF operates is J-7G/G2, probabaly configured with KLJ-6F, it would not range more than 70~75 kms. No point for PLAAF to equip its J-7s with BVR missile (SD-10).

P.S: I am not underrating F7s, I know them, they have been serving PAF for decades now. My point rather is "one must not vindicate its J-7 or something by lowballing JFT or something". BAF opted J-7 for its own reasons, now that doesnt mean JFT is an amateurish aircraft..

 

[Zabaniyah]

Bottom line: BAF lacks BVR and net-centric warfare capabilities.

Initially, some FC-1s along with an AWACS package would be a good start for defensive purposes. Military of Bangladesh is largely defensive.

And maybe, FC-20s for later (when up for offer).

I know F-16 and Gripen are good, but they are very expensive. Also, we do not know if the Americans would be willing to provide us with the AMRAAM missile, the key BVR missile used by both the Gripen and the F-16. The Meteor may cost even more. Very expensive compared to Russian and Chinese ones.

I am saying this even though I personally prefer Western equipment. We just have to accept the reality.

I am not sure if additional MiG-29s and SU-30s would be in the best interests of the BAF. Especially since it runs on a very tight budget.

even if its in lesser number, as there is no potent threat to Bangladesh in future near or distant.

There is Myanmar, but nothing too much to be paranoid about.

bangladesh doesnt has a good experience with mig29 due to cost of operation, it even offered its migs for sale in 2002.

MiG-29 cost ~$5,500/hr to operate. Varies from end-user to end-user.

The MiG-29's engines were problematic. Another limitation is the late delivery of supplies from the Russians.

You see, the key mistake the BAF did was that they brought cheap parts from Central Asian and East European countries. Without the use of original parts, this caused damage, and partly resulted in costly overhauls.

so better go for gripen, as f-16 used ones will have little life left upon them. and new ones are too expensive.
recently thailand went for 1.2 billion deal of 12 gripen and 2 saab 340 AWACS.
i think this package itself is sufficient for all needs of bangladesh this along with its migs and current f-7.
i think bangladesh should think on lines of Thailand though they have more security issues.

Having lived in Thailand for 12 years, I can say Thailand is a lot richer and more advanced than Bangladesh.

Bangladesh's problem is lack of will and commitment from the top levels in pretty much anything government related. And this has been going on for almost two decades.

It'd take a while for Bangladesh's political climate to improve. And since that applies, the future plans of the BAF may change at anytime.

Just because the article in the thread says that F-16, MiG-29, SU-30, Gripen must be the future, does not necessarily have to be true.

Frankly, I find the list contradictory toward the stated requirements of the BAF. I mean, they place cost as a major criteria, and at the same time, they consider the SU-30?

 

[Ammyy]

Lets not fight why BAF did not go for JF-17, BAF must have their own long term modernization plan.

The question Are F-16s a good choice in 2020+ beyond, will US offer AESA, will US offer AMRAAM (unlikely due to indian pressure), Gripen is not cheap and stands equally in cost to the F-16 block 52 though gripen NG could be on offer but with strings attached US Engine+us missiles. Remember According to Swedish DOD they will regularly visit to keep check on gripens in Thailand you may read it online from reliable websites.

Can BAF spend this much on 16 F-16s
- 16 New F-16 Block 50/52s – $1.38B or more
- Weapons for the New F-16s – $?
- F-16 Mid-Life Update Modification Kits – around $500M for 16 F-16s (MLU block 32 to block 50 F-16s in US Storage)
- F-16 Block 30/32 Engine Modifications – around $120-$130M
- All Setup, all necessary equipment, training etc - $?
- Total cost = more then $2B as much as $2.3B?

Thailand Purchased 12 Gripens + 2 Saab AEW&C the total cost of procurement is around $2B-$2.2B

Suppose...JF-17 Blk II and 1 Y-8 AEW&C at say $24M (Block II AESA against non AESA Gripen) X 16 + 1 Y-8 AEW&C = appx $385M Add a $115M total complete package-setup-associated costs = $500M for satisfaction make it $550M

Which one do you think is feasible cost effective solution, you decide, but in the end it is BAF to decide not forums so I would ask members to zip up mouths against each other.

Please tell me one think how can you compare Gripen with JF17 (upgraded version is in development) ????

 

[Emmie]

Please tell me one think how can you compare Gripen with JF17 (upgraded version is in development) ????

He's comparing with respect to the cost of two jets... Read the post with proper context... Don't just jump with enthusiasm.

 

[Ammyy]

He's comparing with respect to the cost of two jets... Read the post with proper context... Don't just jump with enthusiasm.

If cost is every thing capabilities are not important then why not go for more J7 ??

 

[Zabaniyah]

If cost is every thing capabilities are not important then why not go for more J7 ??

Do you have to absolutely troll every thread that mentions the JF-17?

We already discussed the limitations of the F-7 throughout the past 26 pages!

 

[Emmie]

Suppose...JF-17 Blk II and 1 Y-8 AEW&C at say $24M (Block II AESA against non AESA Gripen) X 16 + 1 Y-8 AEW&C = appx $385M Add a $115M total complete package-setup-associated costs = $500M for satisfaction make it $550M

Which one do you think is feasible cost effective solution, you decide, but in the end it is BAF to decide not forums so I would ask members to zip up mouths against each other.

No dear.... JFT block II would cost US $ 20-25 Ml, with AESA it would cost US $ 30 Ml... With weapons, maintenance and other services single unit would cost US$ 30+ Ml (without AESA) and US$ 35+ (with AESA)... I may be wrong altho...

 

[Zabaniyah]

No dear.... JFT block II would cost US $ 20-25 Ml, with AESA it would cost US $ 30 Ml... With weapons, maintenance and other services single unit would cost US$ 30+ Ml (without AESA) and US$ 35+ (with AESA)... I may be wrong altho...

To be frank, that is an accurate price prediction. I doubt if it'd cost only $15 million for exports.

 

[Emmie]

If cost is every thing capabilities are not important then why not go for more J7 ??

Yeah this is what he's pointing out, the cost factor for BAF considering others options mentioned in OP's post.. If cost if everything then BAF must not consider F16, Gripen, Mif-29 etc etc and focus on F7s only, as per your faulty logic...

BTW people have discussed these all on previous pages, spend some time reading posts there..

 

[Emmie]

To be frank, that is an accurate price prediction. I doubt if it'd cost only $15 million for exports.

Can't say about my predication, but yeah, aircraft augments its price when it is to be exported... It goes with weapons and other services.