Bangladesh Air Force

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Bro you won’t have 16 fighters operational at all times
Mig 29s burn through a quarter of their fuel load on takeoff… and 4 available at any one time
if you’re talking about 36 EFT then yeah sure that’s a good level of fighters for deterrence but 16 won’t do squat.
You’ll still need single engine for interception, scramble and patrol duties

I think F-7BGIs shall keep flying for this current decade.
I don't care which platform is inducted, I am starting to question if there will even be any induction or we all are being given lollipop?

 

[Michael Corleone]

I think F-7BGIs shall keep flying for this current decade.
I don't care which platform is inducted, I am starting to question if there will even be any induction or we all are being given lollipop?

Yep exactly. Bgi will be able to serve till 2040s if mb service life is anything to go by.
rest assured we will be 2 generations behind airforce as usual.

 

[bluesky]

16 new planes won't cut it.

This group of 16 units will certainly be increased in the future when more pilots are trained and more money is in the coffer. This will be only the beginning.

BAF needs planes without political attachments. F-16 cannot be operated without the US nod. Migs are fuel-burner. Chinese planes are weak. So, the Typhoon could be a better choice.

Its fuel, operating and maintenance costs are quite low compared to other planes. The only issue remains to get the right pilots in the BAF to operate the planes. Please note that not every pilot has the same brilliant brain and keen eyes. So, there will be a selection process among the pilots.

I believe, if the BAF has already finalized the purchase of Typhoon, then BAF pilots are already taking the training in the exporting country. Here also there should be a selection procedure to get the best Aces. So, suddenly BAF should not buy many squadrons at a time.

The number of planes is less important than the functionality of the planes, and the number can be increased gradually. This is what I think.

 

[Avicenna]

This group of 16 units will certainly be increased in the future when more pilots are trained and more money is in the coffer. This will be only the beginning.

BAF needs planes without political attachments. F-16 cannot be operated without the US nod. Migs are fuel-burner. Chinese planes are weak. So, the Typhoon could be a better choice.

Its fuel, operating and maintenance costs are quite low compared to other planes. The only issue remains to get the right pilots in the BAF to operate the planes. Please note that not every pilot has the same brilliant brain and keen eyes. So, there will be a selection process among the pilots.

I believe, if the BAF has already finalized the purchase of Typhoon, then BAF pilots are already taking the training in the exporting country. Here also there should be a selection procedure to get the best Aces. So, suddenly BAF should not buy many squadrons at a time.

The number of planes is less important than the functionality of the planes, and the number can be increased gradually. This is what I think.

Agree with you about the pilots.

Look, its not rocket science.

See how elite air forces select candidates.

And copy.

Incentivize individuals to become fighter pilots.

I mean at the foundation is the question:

Does the government of Bangladesh care enough to execute.

 

[mb444]

Bro you won’t have 16 fighters operational at all times
Mig 29s burn through a quarter of their fuel load on takeoff… and 4 available at any one time
if you’re talking about 36 EFT then yeah sure that’s a good level of fighters for deterrence but 16 won’t do squat.
You’ll still need single engine for interception, scramble and patrol duties

Yes sure.... but i bring you back to point...F16 or Grippen will lose to raffle in air to air combat with all other factors such as tactics, pilot training, luck etc being equal.

When you bring EFT into play on the same basis raffle lose every time.

When you can not match numbers.... quality is the only fallback you have.

 

[Avicenna]

Yes sure.... but i bring you back to point...F16 or Grippen will lose to raffle in air to air combat with all other factors such as tactics, pilot training, luck etc being equal.

When you bring EFT into play on the same basis raffle lose every time.

When you can not match numbers.... quality is the only fallback you have.

You can't make that statement with any sort of worth.

There are SO many things that go into an engagement that determines outcome in air combat.

An F-16 or Gripen can absolutely take down a Rafale in any given engagement.

Too many factors go into it.

But the benefit of having the Viper or Gripen?

More of them.

 

[mb444]

You can't make that statement with any sort of worth.

There are SO many things that go into an engagement that determines outcome in air combat.

An F-16 or Gripen can absolutely take down a Rafale in any given engagement.

Too many factors go into it.

But the benefit of having the Viper or Gripen?

More of them.

I fundamentally disagree with you and we will have to leave it at that.

 

[Michael Corleone]

Yes sure.... but i bring you back to point...F16 or Grippen will lose to raffle in air to air combat with all other factors such as tactics, pilot training, luck etc being equal.

When you bring EFT into play on the same basis raffle lose every time.

When you can not match numbers.... quality is the only fallback you have.

How do you come to the conclusion that f16 and gripens can’t win against rafale?

Agree with you about the pilots.

Look, its not rocket science.

See how elite air forces select candidates.

And copy.

Incentivize individuals to become fighter pilots.

I mean at the foundation is the question:

Does the government of Bangladesh care enough to execute.

Who knows maybe we will have cadets trained for new MRCA from RAF.
Already had a cadet graduated from RAF recently and he won the best international cadet award so maybe that’s a hint to the future.

 

[mb444]

How do you come to the conclusion that f16 and gripens can’t win against rafale?

Who knows maybe we will have cadets trained for new MRCA from RAF.
Already had a cadet graduated from RAF recently and he won the best international cadet award so maybe that’s a hint to the future.

Rafale is a completely different class of aircraft to Gripen or the F16. There is no comparison worth making.

I am similarly unclear why you would think either can win against the rafale when each is slower, has lower service ceiling, lower range, lower hard points etc....

Tactics, situational awareness, pilot skils and sheer luck will matter.... but taking these aside on paper there is no scenario rafale looses to gripen/F16.

 

[Michael Corleone]

Rafale is a completely different class of aircraft to Gripen or the F16. There is no comparison worth making.

I am similarly unclear why you would think either can win against the rafale when each is slower, has lower service ceiling, lower range, lower hard points etc....

Tactics, situational awareness, pilot skils and sheer luck will matter.... but taking these aside on paper there is no scenario rafale looses to gripen/F16.

Because I wouldn’t pit one planes superiority over another based on low range, low payload but kinematic performances that actually matters in a dogfight.

 

[Avicenna]

Rafale is a completely different class of aircraft to Gripen or the F16. There is no comparison worth making.

I am similarly unclear why you would think either can win against the rafale when each is slower, has lower service ceiling, lower range, lower hard points etc....

Tactics, situational awareness, pilot skils and sheer luck will matter.... but taking these aside on paper there is no scenario rafale looses to gripen/F16.

I'm not sure how you come to your conclusions.

In the below, the SU-27 is faster, can fly higher, has more hard points.

Every fighter has its pros and cons.

Again its more the totality of systems at play than any individual fighter type.

An F-16, F-18, F-15, Gripen, or even Mig or Sukhoi can absolutely down a Rafale.

And vice versa.

The point I'm trying to make is I'd much rather have 32 of 4+ gen fighter than 16.

PLAAF Senior Pilot Reveals Poor Performance in Joint Exercise With RTAF | AIN

A report details the performance of PLAAF aircraft in Falcon Strike 2015.

www.ainonline.com

PLAAF Senior Pilot Reveals Poor Performance in Joint Exercise With RTAF


An early December 2019 report from inside of the People’s Republic of China (PRC) reveals previously unreleased technical details of People’s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) Russian-built Su-27s losing a majority of engagements in a November 2015 joint exercise with the 701 Fighter Squadron of the Royal Thai Air Force (RTAF). This Thai unit operates eight Saab JAS-39C and four JAS-39D Gripens.
The engagements, known as Falcon Strike 2015, were the first of three such exercises and were detailed in a lecture given by one of the PLAAF’s most heavily decorated pilots, Senior Colonel Li Chunghua Hua (李中華), at the PRC’s Northwestern Polytechnical University (西北工业大学) in Xi’an, Shaanxi Province.
Li is described as one of the most experienced Sukhoi Su-27SK/J-11A pilots in the PLAAF with some 3,200 hours in fast jets, much of them in the Russian-made Sukhoi. His revelations are unprecedented and are assessed by US intelligence as demonstrating a growing concern within the officer corps over deficiencies with the training regime for the PLAAF’s pilot cadre.
These first exercises ran at Korat Royal Thai Air Force Base and showed the advantages of the smaller and more technologically-advanced Gripen over the Russian Sukhoi. Several of Li’s summations from the exercise are:

• The JAS-39 performance was at its worst inside the within visual range (WVR) envelope. Over a two-day period, PLAAF pilots shot down 25 Gripens at a loss of only one Su-27. The Su-27 has an advantage over the performance of the JAS-39 due to its more powerful Salyut AL-31F engines, and the Swedish aircraft was handicapped in that it was equipped with the older-generation AIM-9L Sidewinder instead of the current-generation Diehl IRIS-T missile.
• Once the exercise transitioned to beyond visual range (BVR) combat, the superiority of the JAS-39 became readily apparent. The Swedish aircraft shot down 41 Su-27s over a period of four days with a loss of only nine JAS-39s.
• The Su-27s flown by the PLAAF were operating with a modified version of the NIIP N001 radar that could fire the Vympel RVV-AE active-homing air-to-air missile (AAM). But its effective detection range was only 120km in comparison with the JAS-39’s Ericsson PS-05/A at 160km. The Gripen’s Raytheon AIM-120 AAM also outranged the RVV-AE at 80km versus only 50 km for the Russian missile.
• Li stated that the JAS-39C/D’s much smaller radar cross-section (RCS) at 1.5-2.0 m2 was a major factor, as the much larger Su-27 is easier to detect at 12 sq miles. The JAS-39 can also ripple-fire up to four AIM-120s simultaneously but the Su-27 can fire only one RVV-AE at a time.

Gripen achieved 88 percent of its kills at 19 miles or greater, while the Su-27 had just 14 percent of its kills at this range. The RTAF also had 10 kills at a distance of more than 31 miles compared with zero long-distance kills by the Su-27.
In subsequent exercises the PLAAF fared better by sending the Chengdu J-10A - and then in 2019 the J-10C - in place of the Su-27. Li pointed out that the J-10C was more of a match for the JAS-39C/D in that “its active array radar significantly improves detection distance and multi-target attack capability, the DSI (divertless) air intake of the J-10C reduces the radar intercept area while the PL-15 missile increases the range, making it an over-the-horizon platform.”
Li also commented that the next-generation version of the Gripen, the JAS-39E, is likely to feature even more advanced combat performance. His interest in the aircraft parallels a larger body of analysis within the PLA intelligence community that has had a fixation on the design and development of the Gripen as a template for PRC industry to follow.

 

[mb444]

Because I wouldn’t pit one planes superiority over another based on low range, low payload but kinematic performances that actually matters in a dogfight.

In dog fight mode Rafale is superior to Gripen and F16.....if such a thing actually takes place as rafale would release its BVR missiles much earlier than either of those jets.

 

[Michael Corleone]

In dog fight mode Rafale is superior to Gripen and F16.....if such a thing actually takes place as rafale would release its BVR missiles much earlier than either of those jets.

Why do you think f16s and gripens radars are inferior to rafale. Frankly there’s no data publicly available to make this conclusion.

 

[mb444]

I'm not sure how you come to your conclusions.

In the below, the SU-27 is faster, can fly higher, has more hard points.

Every fighter has its pros and cons.

Again its more the totality of systems at play than any individual fighter type.

An F-16, F-18, F-15, Gripen, or even Mig or Sukhoi can absolutely down a Rafale.

And vice versa.

The point I'm trying to make is I'd much rather have 32 of 4+ gen fighter than 16.

PLAAF Senior Pilot Reveals Poor Performance in Joint Exercise With RTAF | AIN

A report details the performance of PLAAF aircraft in Falcon Strike 2015.

www.ainonline.com

PLAAF Senior Pilot Reveals Poor Performance in Joint Exercise With RTAF


An early December 2019 report from inside of the People’s Republic of China (PRC) reveals previously unreleased technical details of People’s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) Russian-built Su-27s losing a majority of engagements in a November 2015 joint exercise with the 701 Fighter Squadron of the Royal Thai Air Force (RTAF). This Thai unit operates eight Saab JAS-39C and four JAS-39D Gripens.
The engagements, known as Falcon Strike 2015, were the first of three such exercises and were detailed in a lecture given by one of the PLAAF’s most heavily decorated pilots, Senior Colonel Li Chunghua Hua (李中華), at the PRC’s Northwestern Polytechnical University (西北工业大学) in Xi’an, Shaanxi Province.
Li is described as one of the most experienced Sukhoi Su-27SK/J-11A pilots in the PLAAF with some 3,200 hours in fast jets, much of them in the Russian-made Sukhoi. His revelations are unprecedented and are assessed by US intelligence as demonstrating a growing concern within the officer corps over deficiencies with the training regime for the PLAAF’s pilot cadre.
These first exercises ran at Korat Royal Thai Air Force Base and showed the advantages of the smaller and more technologically-advanced Gripen over the Russian Sukhoi. Several of Li’s summations from the exercise are:

• The JAS-39 performance was at its worst inside the within visual range (WVR) envelope. Over a two-day period, PLAAF pilots shot down 25 Gripens at a loss of only one Su-27. The Su-27 has an advantage over the performance of the JAS-39 due to its more powerful Salyut AL-31F engines, and the Swedish aircraft was handicapped in that it was equipped with the older-generation AIM-9L Sidewinder instead of the current-generation Diehl IRIS-T missile.
• Once the exercise transitioned to beyond visual range (BVR) combat, the superiority of the JAS-39 became readily apparent. The Swedish aircraft shot down 41 Su-27s over a period of four days with a loss of only nine JAS-39s.
• The Su-27s flown by the PLAAF were operating with a modified version of the NIIP N001 radar that could fire the Vympel RVV-AE active-homing air-to-air missile (AAM). But its effective detection range was only 120km in comparison with the JAS-39’s Ericsson PS-05/A at 160km. The Gripen’s Raytheon AIM-120 AAM also outranged the RVV-AE at 80km versus only 50 km for the Russian missile.
• Li stated that the JAS-39C/D’s much smaller radar cross-section (RCS) at 1.5-2.0 m2 was a major factor, as the much larger Su-27 is easier to detect at 12 sq miles. The JAS-39 can also ripple-fire up to four AIM-120s simultaneously but the Su-27 can fire only one RVV-AE at a time.

Gripen achieved 88 percent of its kills at 19 miles or greater, while the Su-27 had just 14 percent of its kills at this range. The RTAF also had 10 kills at a distance of more than 31 miles compared with zero long-distance kills by the Su-27.
In subsequent exercises the PLAAF fared better by sending the Chengdu J-10A - and then in 2019 the J-10C - in place of the Su-27. Li pointed out that the J-10C was more of a match for the JAS-39C/D in that “its active array radar significantly improves detection distance and multi-target attack capability, the DSI (divertless) air intake of the J-10C reduces the radar intercept area while the PL-15 missile increases the range, making it an over-the-horizon platform.”
Li also commented that the next-generation version of the Gripen, the JAS-39E, is likely to feature even more advanced combat performance. His interest in the aircraft parallels a larger body of analysis within the PLA intelligence community that has had a fixation on the design and development of the Gripen as a template for PRC industry to follow.

As i said we will have to agree to disagree.

I agree with general orthodoxy that heirarchy in western jets when it comes to air supremacy is as follows:

F35, F22, EFT, FA 18E/F, Rafale, F16V, GRIPEN...

The only point of contention is F22 was designed for air supremacy whilst F35 is multirole so F22 is strictly better. However its build phase has ended whilst F35s evolution continues thus is normally placed first.

I have no issue with you having a contrary view.

 

[F-6 enthusiast]

Flankers have inferior radar and missile technology if it were to have western level avionics, it would have triumphed over any western 4th gen aircraft.
A better comparison would be F-15C vs F-16C. imagine these two go against each other, with AIM-120C5
F-15 can climb to a higher altitude where the air is thinner and launch the AMRAAM. The Eagle has a higher top speed and thrust to weight ratio. So when it launches the AMRAAM, it will have higher kinetic energy = greater range than if an F-16 launches an AMRAAM.

Another thing is that the eagle can direct more electrical power to its radar (because of power generated by two engines) which may result in longer detection ranges.

The eagle costs 22,000 USD/hour to run vs 7000 USD/hour

Single engine fighters can always use certain tactics or technology (EW) to negate the advantage but a double engined opponent at the same technological level will be hard to beat.