Bangladesh Air Force

[mb444]

I cannot agree with this statement at all.

During the 2001 standoff with India, China shipped in fighter aircraft among many other weapons to assist Pakistan.
Even though China-India trade was a lot lower, China did not care as it values strategic factors over mere economics.

We have to admit that BD is less important strategically to China as it does not share a border but it is nonetheless important as it is a large Muslim country with a good economy that will help keep India boxed into S Asia.

If China can use Pakistan and BD to box in India, that is one big irritant out of the way as they have USA, Japan, Korea et al to deal with in East Asia.

Let us look at the trade figures anyway. Last year China exported 74 billion US dollars to India which is less than 2% of Chinese exports.
India anyhow would just be hurting itself to boycott Chinese products as it would have to source elsewhere at much higher prices. Indian economy is weak due to multi-ethnic nature of country and Hinduvta mismanagement anyway and they can ill afford to stop importing cheap Chinese goods.
Economically India has no leverage over China.

As for developing own capacity that may be 50 years away. Even Turkey will not be ready for at least another generation as it would have great difficulty in making competitive turbofans to power it's aircraft.

BD needs to focus on Western/Chinese mix and slowly increase the content of Turkish arms into it's military, while slowly building up it's own defence industry that could take 2 or more generations to become world-class. I am hopeful on this front as BD has decent electronics tech(Walton), just created an aerospace university and currently building it's first aircraft manufacturing plant.

You have complete right to hold the opinion that you do.

If you wish to ignore chinese stance in the ongoing rohingya debacle, you have that choice.

 

[UKBengali]

You have complete right to hold the opinion that you do.

If you wish to ignore chinese stance in the ongoing rohingya debacle, you have that choice.

Myanmar is a Chinese client state while India is an adversary who has ambitions to match Chinese power in Asia.

Imo bd should just look forward to 5th gen platforms which can be sourced from China. There’s no reason to get j10 again and clog up the system

Yep it may be a little late to be buying brand new J-10CEs now.

It looks like the FC-31 will be ready for export by 2025 as that is when the domestic turbofan WS-19 will be ready, and so BD may be best just buying this plane as it will be better than anything that India has.

 

[Avicenna]

Bangladesh seems to want to have two different types.

MRCA and a maritime strike fighter.

Typhoon and Super Hornet anyone?

Makes some sense.

Bangladesh already has a relationship between Leonardo and Boeing.

Also Kuwait seems to be fielding the same combination.

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2020-02-04/kuwait-prepares-typhoon-eis-2020

Kuwait Prepares for Typhoon EIS in 2020
by Jon Lake
- February 4, 2020


The first seven Kuwaiti Typhoon pilots graduated from their AMI (Aeronautica Militare Italiana, Italian Air Force) flying training courses on July 5 in a graduation ceremony held at Lecce/Galatina, home to the M346 equipped International Flying School/61° Stormo.
Final assembly of the first batch of Eurofighter Typhoons for Kuwait was formally launched in a ceremony at Turin-Caselle on October 15. The Italian final assembly line was bedecked with Kuwaiti and Italian flags for the closed event, with a backdrop provided by the fuselage of the first Kuwaiti two-seater (KT001) in an assembly jig, waiting for its tailfin to be fitted.

Leonardo said that the final assembly of the first five aircraft is now underway at the company’s Aircraft Division plant at Turin, while major components of further Kuwaiti aircraft are in production across the four partner nations. This will lead to aircraft deliveries from 2020 to 2023 and the Typhoon will enter Kuwait Air Force service in September 2020.

The Kuwait Air Force is undertaking a major modernization and expansion of its fighter arm, replacing 39 F/A-18C/Ds with 28 F/A-18E/F Super Hornets and 28 Typhoons, meaning that induction of the new aircraft will have to be accompanied by an influx of new personnel, including both pilots and groundcrew, while the "Heritage Hornet" pilots and groundcrew will also need to undergo some retraining.

On October 14 it was announced that the first batch of Kuwaiti aircraft maintenance technicians for the Typhoon had started their academic training at the Accademia Aeronautica (the Italian air force academy) at Caserta near Naples.

The first seven Kuwaiti Typhoon pilots graduated from their AMI (Aeronautica Militare Italiana, Italian air force) flying training courses on July 5. The experienced Kuwaiti pilots had undertaken some training with the AMI's Eurofighter F-2000 operational conversion unit (the 4° Stormo’s 20° Gruppo) at Grosseto, but the graduation ceremony was held at Lecce/Galatina, home to the M346-equipped International Flying School/61° Stormo. The ceremony was attended by the Commander of the Kuwait Air Force, air vice-marshal Adnan Al-Fadhli, who revealed that the AMI training had included specific instruction in commanding Eurofighter Typhoon squadrons and had encompassed maneuvers in Oman and Egypt. These officers will now instruct other Kuwaiti pilots.

Kuwaiti interest in the Eurofighter Typhoon emerged in 2012 when a pair of Italian air force Eurofighter Typhoons from the 4° Stormo was deployed to Kuwait for evaluation. Despite very high ambient temperatures (53° C), and high winds (40 mph), the Typhoon reportedly impressed, and in April 2016 Kuwait signed an $8.7 billion contract with Finmeccanica (now Leonardo) for the supply of 28 aircraft (including six two-seat trainers), with an associated training, logistics, and operational support package, including equipment and a suite of training devices to allow the establishment of an operational conversion unit in Kuwait. The contract also included the construction of infrastructure at the Al-Salem Air Base and a three-year package of initial support services (with an option for a further five years). Kuwait thereby became the eighth customer for the Eurofighter Typhoon.

Kuwait’s 28 aircraft will be the most advanced examples of the Eurofighter Typhoon produced so far, and the first delivered to the new P3Eb standard. P3Eb provides a package of capabilities that build upon the Typhoon’s previous enhancement programs, using the functional content of P3Ea as what Leonardo calls “a starting technical development baseline.”

P3Eb will be delivered in two phases. The KAF entry into service (EIS) standard includes the new E-scan radar (with an EIS capability), AIM-120 AMRAAM (up to C7), and a Meteor initial training capability, ballistic bombs (Mk 82, 83, and 84), the Sniper laser designator pod with downlink, the P5 ACMI pod (providing real-time training for air-to-air gunnery, IRIS-T, and AMRAAM C7), and VOR navigation capability.

Later, the KAF Enhanced standard will be introduced. This will introduce an upgraded E-scan radar, Meteor full capability, GBU-31 JDAM precision-guided bombs, Enhanced Sniper (full-range capability), and a P5 ACMI Pod Enhancement. The radar used by Kuwaiti Typhoons is the Captor-E to Radar One Plus standard. This also forms the basis of the four-nation AESA radar development program, with the same hardware and the same performance. The Captor-E radar provides significantly more power than most competing systems. The advanced antenna repositioner gives the Typhoon radar a field of regard of 200 degrees.

Kuwait’s Typhoons will be the first to use the Lockheed Martin Sniper advanced targeting pod, following the award of a direct commercial sale contract for 18 Sniper advanced targeting pods, together with integration and logistics support on Sept. 28, 2016. The Sniper pod has recently been upgraded to include two-color laser spot tracking, short-wave infrared, and advanced non-traditional intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance modes.

The Kuwaiti aircraft will be capable of carrying the MBDA Storm Shadow cruise missile, providing a long-range stand-off capability that the U.S. will not provide with the Super Hornet due to missile technology control regime restrictions. Kuwait’s Typhoons are also due to be equipped to carry DRS-Cubic ACMI P5 combat training pods and will be fitted with an enhanced navigation aid with VOR.

A number of test aircraft have been used to clear the Kuwaiti P3Eb standard, with instrumented series production aircraft (ISPA4 ) and instrumented production aircraft flying with Mk 82 500-pound bombs, Mk 83 1,000-pound bombs, and Mk 84 2,000-pound bombs. On December 23, Leonardo began flying ISPA6 on radar, avionics, and weapons integration test sorties.

 

[UKBengali]

@Avicenna :

I fail to see what BD would gain by buying both Typhoon and Superhornet?

This would be two completely different logistics systems and there is little benefit to buying Superhornet over Eurofighter for maritime strike as we discussed a little while back. Eurofighter is equipped with sensors and weapons that make it a deadly maritime strike fighter and is better at air-to-air than Superhornet.
Better for BAF to get 1 Eurofighter squadron and BN to have 1 dedicated Eurofighter squadron for maritime strike, but also able to switch over to air-superiority as well.

Now both Eurofighter(even refurbished with AESA radar) and Superhornets are expensive to buy and operate, with Superhornet a little cheaper. Can BD afford 2 squadrons of these Western fighters in the next 5 years? It can but forget about buying or investing in anything else in the meantime, and as @Indos mentioned BD needs to be pouring a lot of money into it's aerospace industry and buying expensive Western fighters will eat up all available funds.

I am inclined to go back to buying a squadron of refurbished F-16 Block 50/52s with AIM-120C7s, and investing properly in the nascent aerospace industry as this will one day, decades into the future, allow BAF to be fully or at least partially equipped with domestic fighter planes.

 

[mb444]

@Avicenna :

I fail to see what BD would gain by buying both Typhoon and Superhornet?

This would be two completely different logistics systems and there is little benefit to buying Superhornet over Eurofighter for maritime strike as we discussed a little while back. Eurofighter is equipped with sensors and weapons that make it a deadly maritime strike fighter and is better at air-to-air than Superhornet.
Better for BAF to get 1 Eurofighter squadron and BN to have 1 dedicated Eurofighter squadron for maritime strike, but also able to switch over to air-superiority as well.

Now both Eurofighter(even refurbished with AESA radar) and Superhornets are expensive to buy and operate, with Superhornet a little cheaper. Can BD afford 2 squadrons of these Western fighters in the next 5 years? It can but forget about buying or investing in anything else in the meantime, and as @Indos mentioned BD needs to be pouring a lot of money into it's aerospace industry and buying expensive Western fighters will eat up all available funds.

I am inclined to go back to buying a squadron of refurbished F-16 Block 50/52s with AIM-120C7s, and investing properly in the nascent aerospace industry as this will one day, decades into the future, allow BAF to be fully or at least partially equipped with domestic fighter planes.

I agree BD should progresively build up EFT numbers. I will do both jobs very well.

In the mean time build up a missile force.

With EFT i can not see it makes any further sense to buy anything else. If a really cheap figher option comes up then maybe to have a high low mix.

Otherwise we will just have to make do with the BGIs, assorted other F7s, yaks and migs in the inventory as the low mix.

 

[UKBengali]

I agree BD should progresively build up EFT numbers. I will do both jobs very well.

In the mean time build up a missile force.

With EFT i can not see it makes any further sense to buy anything else. If a really cheap figher option comes up then maybe to have a high low mix.

Otherwise we will just have to make do with the BGIs, assorted other F7s, yaks and migs in the inventory as the low mix.

It is a toss up between cheap refurbished F-16 Block 50/52s with AIM-120C7, that will allow billions of US dollars to be poured into the BD aerospace industry this decade and more capable but expensive Eurofighters with Meteors, with BD then struggling to properly fund it's aerospace industry.

As for missile force, I think better to get the 300km range T-300A to supplement the 18 120km range T-300B MLRS systems that BA recently brought. These are cheaper and are readily available than a missile force.

 

[mb444]

It is a toss up between cheap refurbished F-16 Block 50/52s with AIM-120C7, that will allow billions of US dollars to be poured into the BD aerospace industry this decade and more capable but expensive Eurofighters with Meteors, with BD then struggling to properly fund it's aerospace industry.

As for missile force, I think better to get the 300km range T-300A to supplement the 18 120km range T-300B MLRS systems that BA recently brought. These are cheaper and are readily available than a missile force.

BD can not invest billions on aerospace given all the other priorities.

An effective missile capacity is easier to achieve in that it is simpler and cheaper.

A pure BD jet is something that is very long in the future although would love to see one.. ... a 1st stage trainer and then a second stage trainer is much more realistic in the short to medium term then we need to progress to then progress to a jf17 like joint venture.

The fact is finances has hindered BAF in the past and will do so in the future as unless and until we produce our own jets we can not effectively protect it.

 

[Destranator]

Bangladesh has zero need to manufacture fighter jets from scratch. Any such attempt would be a vanity project as the reality is Bangladesh is extremely unlikely to get into a pro-longed war with any country. There is nothing to fight so hard for that would require quick fighter replacements.
None of Bangladesh's disputes with neighbours can be resolved through conflict even if we emerge victorious. India would not start offering more water and market access and Burma would not suddenly get over their anti-Rohingya xenophobia (unless BAC is planning on indigenous production of tailored grey matter for injection into Burmese heads.)

Bangladesh's fighter fleet will therefore always be limited to 5-6 squadrons.
Besides, no country on the planet would be dying to buy aircraft from an elite underwear manufacturer. Look at China: even with all their industrial capabilities and supposedly 5th gen fighter production capabilities, they are struggling to sell J-10s and FC-1s despite the fact that there is a huge third world market which cannot afford/avail Western systems. Does anyone really believe that Bangladesh can ever break into this market?

The economies of scale is just not there for full-fledged design and manufacture.

We can simply stock up on imported spares to keep the fleet operational throughout the potential limited conflicts.

The key takeaway here is: no need to bundle in future "aerospace industry" pipedreams with MRCA procurement and delay things even further.
Select a high performance jet like Typhoon (1-2 squadrons) coupled with low maintenance, high availability aircraft like F-16/Gripen to compose the rest of the fleet and make them all integrated (data link, IFF, etc.) by 2030 and you are good to go.

We can top them off with Chinese fighters in the future if possibilities of Western sanctions arise.

Sorry to put things bluntly but we do need some serious reality check.

I agree BD should progresively build up EFT numbers. I will do both jobs very well.

In the mean time build up a missile force.

With EFT i can not see it makes any further sense to buy anything else. If a really cheap figher option comes up then maybe to have a high low mix.

Otherwise we will just have to make do with the BGIs, assorted other F7s, yaks and migs in the inventory as the low mix.

Exactly. Bangladesh's main threat is artillery and missile strikes by enemies. We need to establish a triad (land, sea, air) of cruise & ballistic missile strike capabilities which would gurantee a devastating secondary strike to the enemy. A triad can offer everlasting deterrence against conflict and tremendous leverage in diplomatic negotiations.

As for hi-lo mix: the truth is we cannot afford high performance jets in large numbers.
Besides, serviceability (i.e., the ability to keep aircraft in the air) will be a key determinant of success in war.

While India has a very formidable fleet, theIr servicability is limited as the fleet is largely made up of twin-engine, low MTBO, high downtime, hot Russian supermodels who demand a lot of expensive dinners and gifts in order to remain operational.

We therefore need a highly servicable aircraft model in numbers for the "low" segment. F-16 and Gripen fit the bill.

 

[UKBengali]

Bangladesh has zero need to manufacture fighter jets from scratch. Any such attempt would be a vanity project as the reality is Bangladesh is extremely unlikely to get into a pro-longed war with any country as there is nothing to fight that hard for which would require quick fighter replacements.
None of Bangladesh's disputes with neighbours can be resolved through conflict even if we emerge victorious. India would not start offering more water and market access and Burma would not suddenly get rid over their anti-Rohingya xenophobia (unless BAC is planning on indigenous production of tailored grey matter for injection into Burmese heads.)

Bangladesh's fighter fleet will therefore always be limited to 5-6 squadrons.
Besides, no country on the planet would be dying to buy aircraft from an elite underwear manufacturer. Look at China: even with all their industrial capabilities and supposedly 5th gen fighter production capabilities, they are struggling to sell J-10s and FC-1s despite the fact that there is a huge third world market which cannot afford/avail Western systems. Does anyone really believe that Bangladesh can ever break into this market?

The economies of scale is just not there for full-fledged design and manufacture.

We can simply stock up on imported spares to keep the fleet operational throughout the potential limited conflicts.

The key takeaway here is: no need to bundle in future "aerospace industry" pipedreams with MRCA procurement and delay things even further.
Select a high performance jet like Typhoon (1-2 squadrons) coupled with low maintenance, high availability aircraft like F-16/Gripen to compose the rest of the fleet and make them all integrated (data link, IFF, etc.) by 2030 and you are good to go.

We can top them off with Chinese fighters in the future if possibilities of Western sanctions arise.

Sorry to put things bluntly but we do need some serious reality check.

China has not been able to sell J-10s or FC-31s as it cannot make the all critical engines for these planes, although it is now integrating WS-10Bs into production J-10Cs. Watch and see how they start selling their planes this decade as they can finally make all components of their jets and their tech inches closer to the West.

Reality check? BD is a country of 160 million and will peak at 180-200 million population and so could build up a beefy economy(CEBR predicts 876 billion US dollar economy in today's money by 2034) to support an advanced aerospace industry. If BD economy grows as predicted then there would be plenty of money to both develop and buy fighter jets in numbers. Exports would just be a bonus.
I am looking at investing some 2-3 billion US dollars in the BD aerospace industry this decade - easily affordable by swapping Eurofighters and Superhornet with refurbished F-16s.

It will take at least 2 generations before BD can field it's own fighter aircraft and so it needs to start pouring in serious money and brainpower for many many decades starting this decade. BD is not starting form scratch as the BAC has been in operation for the last decade and the design of the first jet trainer already started many years ago.

BD'shis need to start thinking big if they are to achieve big. Luckily the current BD government thinks big and that is why BD has achieved so much in the last 10 years.

 

[Michael Corleone]

Bangladesh has zero need to manufacture fighter jets from scratch. Any such attempt would be a vanity project as the reality is Bangladesh is extremely unlikely to get into a pro-longed war with any country. There is nothing to fight so hard for that would require quick fighter replacements.
None of Bangladesh's disputes with neighbours can be resolved through conflict even if we emerge victorious. India would not start offering more water and market access and Burma would not suddenly get over their anti-Rohingya xenophobia (unless BAC is planning on indigenous production of tailored grey matter for injection into Burmese heads.)

Bangladesh's fighter fleet will therefore always be limited to 5-6 squadrons.
Besides, no country on the planet would be dying to buy aircraft from an elite underwear manufacturer. Look at China: even with all their industrial capabilities and supposedly 5th gen fighter production capabilities, they are struggling to sell J-10s and FC-1s despite the fact that there is a huge third world market which cannot afford/avail Western systems. Does anyone really believe that Bangladesh can ever break into this market?

The economies of scale is just not there for full-fledged design and manufacture.

We can simply stock up on imported spares to keep the fleet operational throughout the potential limited conflicts.

The key takeaway here is: no need to bundle in future "aerospace industry" pipedreams with MRCA procurement and delay things even further.
Select a high performance jet like Typhoon (1-2 squadrons) coupled with low maintenance, high availability aircraft like F-16/Gripen to compose the rest of the fleet and make them all integrated (data link, IFF, etc.) by 2030 and you are good to go.

We can top them off with Chinese fighters in the future if possibilities of Western sanctions arise.

Sorry to put things bluntly but we do need some serious reality check.



Exactly. Bangladesh's main threat is artillery and missile strikes by enemies. We need to establish a triad (land, sea, air) of cruise & ballistic missile strike capabilities which would gurantee a devastating secondary strike to the enemy. A triad can offer everlasting deterrence against conflict and tremendous leverage in diplomatic negotiations.

As for hi-lo mix: the truth is we cannot afford high performance jets in large numbers.
Besides, serviceability (i.e., the ability to keep aircraft in the air) will be a key determinant of success in war.

While India has a very formidable fleet, theIr servicability is limited as the fleet is largely made up of twin-engine, low MTBO, high downtime, hot Russian supermodels who demand a lot of expensive dinners and gifts in order to remain operational.

We therefore need a highly servicable aircraft model in numbers for the "low" segment. F-16 and Gripen fit the bill.

True for a country with Bangladesh’s max economic potential and size can’t alone develop a modern high performance fighter, that’s why it should join companies like TAS for the TFX program imo, EFT is an effort of half the Europe and comparatively the better fighter compared to rafale... gripen is good but it’s a light fighter... bd can go either direction but going for the former will require more collaboration than going for the latter.
The aerospace university member claimed to have a flying prototype of a jet trainer within the next 3 years so I don’t see anything as impossible. Conservative mindset will not lead you to greatness

 

[Avicenna]

An F/A-18F refueling an F/A-18E over the Bay of Bengal, 2007. US Navy photo courtesy Wikipedia.

 

[Avicenna]

Can we please get some ex-Luftwaffe Tranche 1 please?

33-38 are available.

 

[Destranator]

Can we please get some ex-Luftwaffe Tranche 1 please?

33-38 are available.

BAF: Sounds interesting. We will "consider" it.
Opportunity for a taxpayer-funded trip to Germany!
In the meanwhile, more Mi-17s for taxi service to UN! Woohoo!

 

[bluesky]

Imo bd should just look forward to 5th gen platforms which can be sourced from China. There’s no reason to get j10 again and clog up the system

"The J-10C model reportedly brings the capabilities roughly on par with cutting-edge 4.5-generation jet fighters. Perhaps the biggest improvement is the inclusion of an Active Electronically Scanned Array radar. AESA radars are the current gold standard in air warfare, boasting higher resolution, and greater discretion and resistance to jamming. China appears to have taken a lead over Russia in deploying AESA radars on its latest jet fighters".

 

[Michael Corleone]

"The J-10C model reportedly brings the capabilities roughly on par with cutting-edge 4.5-generation jet fighters. Perhaps the biggest improvement is the inclusion of an Active Electronically Scanned Array radar. AESA radars are the current gold standard in air warfare, boasting higher resolution, and greater discretion and resistance to jamming. China appears to have taken a lead over Russia in deploying AESA radars on its latest jet fighters".

Ah yes, impressive but I am not as convinced as before that it matches capabilities of anything like the f16 block 70... 60/62 at most