Bangladesh Air Force

[Bilal9]

Firstly, lets look at the time frame of the F-7BG and F-7BGI purchases. The BGs were delivered in 2006 and the BGI in 2013 approximately. At that time, the JF-17 was just enterting block 2 phase production. I would characterize the block 1 as an incomplete product. Additionally, your right, the price difference is tremendous and at that point in time I can see the wisdom of getting the F-7s, not to mention familiarity with the platform, ease of integration along the lines of training and maintainence. So I'm not making the arguement that BAF should have bought the JF-17 instead of the F-7 IN THAT TIME FRAME.

However, in comparing the 2 platforms in 2018 and also generally speaking, I would absolutely want the JF-17 block 2 and above over the F-7BGI.

Firstly, the proof is in the pudding, where the PAF will eventually have the platform as their main type to replace their F-7P and eventually non ROSE Mirage. That alone gives me confidence in the type. You can say that they dont really have an option otherwise politically, but do remember the JF-17 underwent a reconfiguration at some point during its development to better handle emerging Indian threats such as the Flanker. Its said the JF-17 received alot of input from the Russians and may acutally be based on their original MIG-33.

You mentioned top speed. So what? It takes alot of fuel and these types rarely if ever operationally approach their top speeds. Another member mentioned that the only difference is the JF-17's ability to fire more weapons from the Chinese inventory. Yea, I would say that important. Bangladesh better have a counter for the SD-10s that will soon be in Myanmar Air Force inventory. Active radar homing BVR is a game changer. Not to mention the PL-10 and other goodies that the Chinese are working on and fielded already.

Not to mention the block 3 which they are working on with AESA, new engine, HMS and probably newer weapon system capabilities.

So yea I would take a JF-17 over an F-7 any day of the week.

Bhai even if JF-17 is a great platform technically, the chances of getting it from Pakistan (and far more importantly, the AL govt. approving that purchase) is close to nil.

Theoretically - great platform and maybe quite cost effective as well. But does it compare with first world or Russian options technically, or has any chance of getting inducted? I have my doubts.

 

[UKBengali]

Yup and thats exactly what we are. Poor men.

I give the Pakistanis full credit in terms of the JF-17 program. What they did was really admirable. You have to remember what a difficult environment it was for them post Pressler amendment. Anytime a muslim nation embraces self sufficiency, albeit with some Chinese help, we should applaud it. They navigated a VERY difficult situation to field an operational fighter which they are staking the lions share of their air capabilities on.

Poor man's Gripen or not, kudos to Pakistan.

I am not trying to take anything away from JF-17 as it is a good effort by Pakistan to develop their own aerospace industry. My point is that even the JF17 Block 3 would be not that useful for BD as it will be facing Rafales and SU-30s of India. Myanmar is not the only potential foe that BD has to worry about.

While the average BD citizen is poor, the country as a whole is not since there are 160 million people in BD. 250 billion US dollar GDP growing at over 7% a year can afford decent numbers of sophisticated Western aircraft.
The problem is that I am not sure whether BD government is willing to start exploring Western options yet.

 

[Avicenna]

I am not trying to take anything away from JF-17 as it is a good effort by Pakistan to develop their own aerospace industry. My point is that even the JF17 Block 3 would be not that useful for BD as it will be facing Rafales and SU-30s of India. Myanmar is not the only potential for that BD has to worry about.

While the average BD citizen is poor, the country as a whole is not since there are 160 million people in BD. 250 billion US dollar GDP growing at over 7% a year can afford decent numbers of sophisticated Western aircraft.
The problem is that I am not sure whether BD government is willing to start exploring Western options yet.

What are you saying? It's the JF-17 that PAF is dependent on to TAKE ON the Flankers and Rafales amongst others.

And for the record PAF is infinitely more capable than the BAF. It's laughable to even compare.

Now that being said, if BAF undertakes an effective program to increase its size and capabilities, there is nothing to preclude it from achieving similar capabilities. But seriously, that is a long long LONG way off.

In terms of the BAF acquiring the JF-17. Yea thats not happening I agree.

For my two cents, I wish BAF went with the Gripen/Eireye pathway.

 

[Bilal9]

Can someone explain to me why Pakistan will sell us their top grade 'deploy in numbers' fighter (JF-17 Block III) when they *know* that the BAF is more or less infiltrated by the RAW and that Indians would be privy to the operational weaknesses of that platform ?

It fails to make sense to me - that's all.

 

[mb444]

Can someone explain to me why Pakistan will sell us their top grade 'deploy in numbers' fighter (JF-17 Block III) when they *know* that the BAF is more or less infiltrated by the RAW and that Indians would be privy to the operational weaknesses of that platform ?

It fails to make sense to me - that's all.

Is the situation that much different when they sold it to the Burmese monkeys? India has a fairly robust relationship with them.

 

[Bilal9]

Is the situation that much different when they sold it to the Burmese monkeys? India has a fairly robust relationship with them.

Well if I trust the Pakistani fauji thinkers (?) to preserve their own interest, they would not sell the latest and the greatest to non-trustable customers like Myanmar. If you notice, the Myanmarese were given Block I versions, the software for launching missiles and IFF transponders are most probably set up differently as well, graded a level lower, just like the Russians and Chinese exports.

 

[bluesky]

Firstly, lets look at the time frame of the F-7BG and F-7BGI purchases. The BGs were delivered in 2006 and the BGI in 2013 approximately. At that time, the JF-17 was just enterting block 2 phase production. I would characterize the block 1 as an incomplete product. Additionally, your right, the price difference is tremendous and at that point in time I can see the wisdom of getting the F-7s, not to mention familiarity with the platform, ease of integration along the lines of training and maintainence. So I'm not making the arguement that BAF should have bought the JF-17 instead of the F-7 IN THAT TIME FRAME

The reality is irrespective of the times when two groups of machines are manufactured, the quality of each depends upon the quality of armament, other input and specifications. All the plane technology were fully matured even though it was built twenty years ago. So, because F-7 was produced quite a time before JF-17 was produced, therefore, the latter is better than the former is not true.

We have to note that F-7 planes have been derived from a matured Mig-21 plane, which was once called "Poor man's F-16." Mig-21 is no more being produced, but it is being produced by the designation of F-7 in China. F-7 is certainly not worse than JF-17. It still remains the poor man's F-16.

 

[Avicenna]

The reality is irrespective of the times when two groups of machines are manufactured, the quality of each depends upon the quality of armament, other input and specifications. All the plane technology were fully matured even though it was built twenty years ago. So, because F-7 was produced quite a time before JF-17 was produced, therefore, the latter is better than the former is not true.

We have to note that F-7 planes have been derived from a matured Mig-21 plane, which was once called "Poor man's F-16." Mig-21 is no more being produced, but it is being produced by the designation of F-7 in China. F-7 is certainly not worse than JF-17. It still remains the poor man's F-16.

Your ignorance on this topic is apparent in this post.

Read up on the history of the J-7. Its only in its F-7PG iteration that it was called a mini F-16.
It is no longer being produced. The BGI were the last ones made and the line closed in 2013.

PAF is replacing its F-7P with the Thunder. You wanna ask the Pakistanis which platform they would rather have? SD-10 alone makes the JF-17 superior.

Also, i am giving you the benefit of the doubt here, perhaps I misunderstand you. But when a plane is made and put into use is of course important in determining which is better.
I would much rather have an F-22 than an F-4.

 

[PDF]

Well if I trust the Pakistani fauji thinkers (?) to preserve their own interest, they would not sell the latest and the greatest to non-trustable customers like Myanmar. If you notice, the Myanmarese were given Block I versions, the software for launching missiles and IFF transponders are most probably set up differently as well, graded a level lower, just like the Russians and Chinese exports.

The avionics Myanmar chose were mostly of the Chinese. Pakistan have mostly western and indigenous avionics in its JF17 which is a strong point for our defense. We have partial FBW in JF 17A while the Jf 17B and the jets from block III will have full FBW. I hope we do not export our systems a graded lower rather they should be at the same level as ours to all of our friendly countries(hope its the case with the Nigerian AF). Anyway, Bangladesh needs to decide quickly whether it will go for Russian jets or not.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Your ignorance on this topic is apparent in this post.

Read up on the history of the J-7. Its only in its F-7PG iteration that it was called a mini F-16.
It is no longer being produced. The BGI were the last ones made and the line closed in 2013.

PAF is replacing its F-7P with the Thunder. You wanna ask the Pakistanis which platform they would rather have? SD-10 alone makes the JF-17 superior.

Also, am dim giving you the benefit of the doubt here, perhaps I misunderstand you. But when a plane is made and put into use is of course important in determining which is better.
I would much rather have an F-22 than an F-4.

There are a few now retired PAF officers who had served in the 1970s and 1980s lamenting how the PAF didn't pick-up the Northrop F-20 when given the chance.

Despite it being not as capable as the F-16 and with a shorter upgrade ceiling, they all asked, "would we have preferred F-7s to the F-20s in the 1990s if given the chance? I doubt it." According to one of them, during the Carter administration the US had even offered the F-20 with manufacturing in Pakistan (remember: it was an export-centric design).

When the time came to look for an F-6 replacement (late 1980s), the F-20 was a dead fish so they had to work on the Sabre II, which tried bringing the F-20's radar and avionics to the F-7P airframe. At that time, Dassault even offered to shift the Mirage F-1's production line to Pakistan, and we saw how the Moroccans were able to configure the F-1 to contemporary standards (F2000).

The lesson the PAF learned from the F-20 issue was that a new 'low-end' fighter that can bring the capabilities of the current high-end is better than fielding swaths of old low-end jets. Yes - the Su-30SME or Su-35 can knock out an intruding IAF fighter, but what are you going to do when those jets are on the ground being serviced?

Does one expect the Russians to back either belligerent (esp. the smaller one) in a fight with a steady stream of spare parts? I doubt it. You'll need that quantity-heavy, lower-cost but still contemporary asset to sustain your physical air presence and continually force the adversary to over-commit in its own assets in each engagement (thus having it too feel the heavy cost of fighting).

 

[Bilal9]

There are a few now retired PAF officers who had served in the 1970s and 1980s lamenting how the PAF didn't pick-up the Northrop F-20 when given the chance.

Despite it being not as capable as the F-16 and with a shorter upgrade ceiling, they all asked, "would we have preferred F-7s to the F-20s in the 1990s if given the chance? I doubt it." According to one of them, during the Carter administration the US had even offered the F-20 with manufacturing in Pakistan (remember: it was an export-centric design).

When the time came to look for an F-6 replacement (late 1980s), the F-20 was a dead fish so they had to work on the Sabre II, which tried bringing the F-20's radar and avionics to the F-7P airframe. At that time, Dassault even offered to shift the Mirage F-1's production line to Pakistan, and we saw how the Moroccans were able to configure the F-1 to contemporary standards (F2000).

The lesson the PAF learned from the F-20 issue was that a new 'low-end' fighter that can bring the capabilities of the current high-end is better than fielding swaths of old low-end jets. Yes - the Su-30SME or Su-35 can knock out an intruding IAF fighter, but what are you going to do when those jets are on the ground being serviced?

Does one expect the Russians to back either belligerent (esp. the smaller one) in a fight with a steady stream of spare parts? I doubt it. You'll need that quantity-heavy, lower-cost but still contemporary asset to sustain your physical air presence and continually force the adversary to over-commit in its own assets in each engagement (thus having it too feel the heavy cost of fighting).

Your weighing in here with your views about fielding 'active' numbers vs. quality is indeed much appreciated Sir. The F-20 (my understanding was that it was a modernized F-5) was not a rip-roaring export success for the US at any rate, even not considering Pakistan.

So - given that SHW's govt. at this time will be reluctant to buy JF17's, I'm curious what other economical option you would suggest (maybe to assemble locally)?

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Your weighing in here with your views about fielding 'active' numbers vs. quality is indeed much appreciated Sir. The F-20 (my understanding was that it was a modernized F-5) was not a rip-roaring export success for the US at any rate, even not considering Pakistan.

So - given that SHW's govt. at this time will be reluctant to buy JF17's, I'm curious what other economical option you would suggest (maybe to assemble locally)?

The F-20 and F-16-79 were developed for the export market in Carter's time, who had maintained restrictions on the technology the US could export. This was lifted during Reagan's time, at which point, countries wanted the F-16-proper - basically leaving the F-20 and F-16-79 to wither.

IMO it'd be wise for Bangladesh to avoid Russian planes all together. I know the MiG-35 and Su-30SME are solid platforms, but you're not just buying the fighter, but the after-sale support, training and logistics packages. The Russians have every incentive - especially as a probable credit/loan-source - to tie Bangladesh to the Russian industry for spare parts, MRO, etc. Sure, I think one could try pushing the Russians to open up shop in Bangladesh by investing in the local MRO base and manufacturing parts under the UAC brand (but in BD), but that's no guarantee for war-time security (as Moscow can ask UAC-BD to stop or recall critical staff). There's also the risk of tying one's budding aviation industry to foreign ownership - e.g. capital outflows from profit, inability to control pricing domestically, etc.

The alternative (if not JF-17/FC-1) should be the JAS-39C/D or E/F or the J-10A (or if possible J-10C, though AVIC hasn't put it up for export). The JAS-39E/F's all-in costs (i.e. flyaway cost plus after-sale support etc) is around $130-150 m per jet, which is the lowest of the Western fighters. Sweden is also willing to release loans for sales.

Avoid local assembly, push for stockpiling as many spare parts and spare engines as possible and aim for domestic overhauling. Once you finish paying for the purchase, leverage a follow-on purchase to having Saab outsource some parts manufacturing work for all Gripen (or other products) to Bangladesh.

 

[TopCat]

IMO it'd be wise for Bangladesh to avoid Russian planes all together. I know the MiG-35 and Su-30SME are solid platforms, but you're not just buying the fighter, but the after-sale support, training and logistics packages. The Russians have every incentive - especially as a probable credit/loan-source - to tie Bangladesh to the Russian industry for spare parts, MRO, etc. Sure, I think one could try pushing the Russians to open up shop in Bangladesh by investing in the local MRO base and manufacturing parts under the UAC brand (but in BD), but that's no guarantee for war-time security (as Moscow can ask UAC-BD to stop or recall critical staff). There's also the risk of tying one's budding aviation industry to foreign ownership - e.g. capital outflows from profit, inability to control pricing domestically, etc.

Post soviets Migs had problem is service and support as Mig factory was in Ukraine. Russians already sorted themselves out. And russian fighters are cheap compared to their capabilities.

 

[UKBengali]

Post soviets Migs had problem is service and support as Mig factory was in Ukraine. Russians already sorted themselves out. And russian fighters are cheap compared to their capabilities.

Russian planes have high operational costs compared to Western types.
Gripen E life cycle cost will be same as Mig-35, even though Gripen E is so much a better fighter.

 

[bluesky]

Your ignorance on this topic is apparent in this post.

Read up on the history of the J-7. Its only in its F-7PG iteration that it was called a mini F-16.
It is no longer being produced. The BGI were the last ones made and the line closed in 2013.

Was F-7PG a plane different from the F-7 group?

Your ignorance on this topic is apparent in this post.

Read up on the history of the J-7. Its only in its F-7PG iteration that it was called a mini F-16.
It is no longer being produced. The BGI were the last ones made and the line closed in 2013.

PAF is replacing its F-7P with the Thunder. You wanna ask the Pakistanis which platform they would rather have? SD-10 alone makes the JF-17 superior.

Also, i am giving you the benefit of the doubt here, perhaps I misunderstand you. But when a plane is made and put into use is of course important in determining which is better.
I would much rather have an F-22 than an F-4.

I accept your scolding me a novice and ignorant on avionics. But, you have failed to pinpoint the advantages of JF-17 Block 2 even over F-7BGI. Instead of getting emotional you must send a comparison table for even an ignorant like me to understand fully why BAF should discard F-7BGI and induct JF-17 instead?

When the BAF bought the BGI planes there were rumors all across the country that it would induct JF-17. It may not have materialized due to geopolitical reason, but there were also talks that the F-7BGIs are for an interim period and BAF would purchase 5G planes. So, why do you think when the BAF did not even consider JF at that time, how it can consider it now when it altready has F-7BGI (poor man's F-16) in its arsenal. Is JF-17 a 5G plane?

So, BAF certainly is planning to buy Russian or western planes. It may be considering also J-10s from China. So, however you tit, I do not think JF-17 will anytime be inducted by the BAF. This plane is not even at par with Tejas except the ceiling height.