Bal Thackeray, Hindu leader and Shiv Sena founder, dies

[Spring Onion]

No I mean if Bal Thackery dies, Raj Thackeray is still alive and promoting Marathi nationalism and insulting Biharis.

So what difference to Marathi nationalism does it make that if Bal dies, Raj is still around and active?

If Obama died tomorrow it would make no difference to America as a global superpower and its fundamental national foreign policies.

RAJ will need few decades to have the same influence which Bal thakray. Raj certainly wont be able to make the center hostage in many things

 

[WAR-rior]

Why not discuss it here?

We are talking about the very life/possible death of Marathi nationalism's leading figure so it is natural and on-topic to speak about Marathi nationalism.

Makes Sense. Lets start.

1. As far as I know Shiv Sena is less Hindu nationalist and more Marathi nationalist e.g. Thackeray first started off his career targeting south Indians and their immigration in to Maharashtra.

True. Coz he was frustrated to see The fruits of Growth of Bombay been consumed by someone other than his brethren. At that time Mumbai wasnt a truely cosmopolitan and diverse city. Also add the politics you play to gain popularity. But again with his stance he wasnt able to dent South Indians an inch but did became a leader of MARATHI MANOOS.

2. There seems to be a perception that Marathi nationalists are against BIMARU chauvinism e.g. the Jaya Bachan episode and the insensitivity and disrespect for local Marathi culture, and the lack of understanding that Maharashtra is not part of BIMARU/Hindustan and Marathis do not automatically have to speak in Hindi (a foreign tongue).

That has a completely different dimension to be frank. What Jaya BAchchan, etc tried to do was push her party's ideology into Maharashtra. Her party 'Samajwadi Party' is a local party from Uttar Pradesh and all that was a stint to popularise SP among the North Indian community which migrated in Huge numbers into the slums. Owing to the lack of education of this junta the SP tried to cash in and tried to Politicise things. In simple words, if someone outsider tries to work politics to gain ground into your land what will be your reaction. It happened in India in 11th century with Mhd. Ghouri and in 17th century with East India Company.

Now dont u think the reaction of Marathi parties was justified owing to the outcomes of previous instances. I know we wud say its all bout India but we have to understand that no person wud like to be ruled by an Outsider. Marathis were only trying to resist the imposition of North Indian Culture in Maharashtra. Frankly, no Mumbaikar even if hes a north indian by roots wud like Delhi Culture into Mumbai. If u understand what i mean. . We are proud of the SAFE CITY Status of Mumbai. Dont want it to be a Crime Capital anymore.

3. By the way one of my Bangladeshi friends who lived in Mumbai for a few years when he was younger (he has Indian family) even told me he supports some of Shiv Sena's policies. At the time I did not care to ask him to elaborate, but knowing his character (he is non-sectarian/non-ethnocentric) am quite sure he wasn't speaking about nationalism/ethnicity etc and obviously not religion as he was a Muslim.

Shiv Sena and BJP are very progressive in nature. Their projects see lyf better than any other party. They dont play nonsense politics and are very clear in expressing their ideology. Their attitude is , U wanna live here and enjoy fruits, do it but in local style. In other words, if u go to USA, u wud be expected to live an American Lyf and not impose your style in some other land.

Last time I heard he has been taken off the life support system already!!I guess u would need to wait. . . :smile:

Chhod na yaar. I m not interested from where u hear what. If ur sources are standard media sources then i have given the reason for the same.

I dont need to wait for nothing coz I know what i am saying.

 

[Android]

RAJ will need few decades to have the same influence which Bal thakray. Raj certainly wont be able to make the center hostage in many things

theres a lot difference between both unlike his uncle Raj's party is a bit sickular since their cause received support of marathi speaking muslim population

 

[trident2010]

Most people in the world when they migrate to a region will assmiliate to the local culture for a variety of reasons (I am excluding religion from this).

1. Need: Due to educational and employment needs they need to learn and speak a certain language or behave in a certain way.

2. A type of loyalty: They become familiar with that region/state more than their own native one and develop a loyalty to it. This increases with each year and the passage of time and each generation.

Even on this forum there was a member (if I remember correctly) from the Philippines who is ethnically Chinese and says his loyalty to the Philippines and not China in any Phils v China conflict.

3. If they see the state/region they are in as possesing an attractive, admirable or superior culture. This is why French assmiliationism is so successful as all the component French sub-groups (Bretons, Occitans, Gascons) believe in the innate greatness of Frenchness, as do the Catalans of France, whereas the Catalans of Spain look down on the rest of the poorer Spaniards.

However the issue here may be this.

People from the BIMARU region or Hindi-speaking belt (especially Uttar Pradesh) see themselves as the nucleus of India (as one UPite Muslim even told me, UP is the "real India). They see Hindi as the "Indian language" and are not willing to speak in other tongues other than the "official" (factually incorrect) "national" "Indian" language Hindi. They are not willing to embrace Marathi culture?

How much of this is true/false, as I said I make no claims to know I just want elaboration on the little I've been told/read.


It's said if a Tamil goes to the north he will adapt and speak Hindi.

So why (some Tamils ask) do not people from the Hindi-belt/BIMARU do the same and be willing to speak in Tamil?

Its not about the language only. Some people can learn new language quickly and some people don't. What is more important to have mixed up with the society and that doesn't mean one has to do what localities does. I might not like some local traditions for xyz reason but what is the most important is the local civic sense. Maharashtrians are very organised people and they are very close to cutural roots of our great country. So as an immigrant if I can observe the same public practices like local people does, that should be sufficient.

Since you are not form India, one thing I want to tell, we are not talking about loyalties in these discussions as for us Indians until the last drop of our blood we are loyal to India. No religion, caste, language and state changes this notion. What we are discussing here is the effect of inter-state migration within India which itself is as diverse as say whole Europe. The problem of immigration especially low-skilled personnel does bring some problems to the locals however, it is manageable if proper planning is done to raise the awareness regarding the local custom. If say I am in UK, I am loyal to the customs here. I respect their civic sense and try to follow it. When I go to my home city in India then it changes with the place (no wine/beer at parties ).

 

[Hammer-fist]

Re: WAR-rior
Ok so in a sentence how would you describe Raj and BAL and the Shive Sena and MNS?

1. Separatists (they clearly do not seem to be from what you've written but there are youtube comments saying Raj is friends with Pakistan and China, nonsense probably but such comments exist).

2. Racial chauvinists - from what you've written they do not seem to be. However how does that explain Raj saying 70-80% of crime is by BIMARU folk? How does that explain violence to Biharis in the past and the one time fleeing of Biharis from Maharashtra.

I doubt Raj is really that much of a nationalist as he publically proclaims or really hates Biharis as much as he publically spouts and am sure this is for political gain, but politicians are opportunists so if he doesn't hesitate to badmouth Biharis would he then not hesitate to do other things to them.

3. A regional party just there to look after Marathi interests and preserve Marathi culture but harmoniously within the union of India (perhaps an idyllic description for them).

Also how does this anti-Sikh rhetoric in Punjab figure in terms of - not Raj and the MNS - but the Shiv Sena?

Also going back to my Muslim Bangladeshi friend, I think Raj is clearly an opportunist and to an extent scared by the powerful and somewhat militant Muslim elements in Mumbai as he clearly avoided confronting them directly over riots a few months back, instead he will pick on easier, weaker targets such as Biharis.

So I see him as an opportunist and politician and clearly not some diehard Marathi patriot.

 

[Hammer-fist]

theres a lot difference between both unlike his uncle Raj's party is a bit sickular since their cause received support of marathi speaking muslim population

Yes, I've read a webpage a while back where he recieved a Quran given to him by Marathi ulama, and with glowing praises for this from people commenting.

This is a different page btw and says:

Under the leadership of MNS vice president Haji Arafat, a delegation of Ulema and leaders of Muslim groups visited Raj’s home and presented Quran, says a Mumbai Urdu daily Inquilab news report.

The delegation said that after wishing Raj on his birthday, he was presented a copy of Maratahi version of Quran which he accepted with due regard.

Bhatkallys : News : Raj Thackeray presented Quran as birthday gift

 

[A.Rafay]

RIH bal thackrey

 

[Spring Onion]

theres a lot difference between both unlike his uncle Raj's party is a bit sickular since their cause received support of marathi speaking muslim population

till the time Indians think "sickular" i believe they both have same support

 

[bronxbull]

1. Whether Bal is dead or not, he is not going to be around for too long but radical Marathi nationalism is still alive due to his nephew, Raj, being around.

2. Regional nationalists in India if they become too strong or problematic could become a threat to India's unity, a "unity" which Manmohan Singh himself said was "at stake" a few months back in the context of nation-wide riots related to violence in the north-east.

Radical what?

seriously man,how clueless you are,just jumping onto news.

Re: WAR-rior
Ok so in a sentence how would you describe Raj and BAL and the Shive Sena and MNS?

1. Separatists (they clearly do not seem to be from what you've written but there are youtube comments saying Raj is friends with Pakistan and China, nonsense probably but such comments exist).

2. Racial chauvinists - from what you've written they do not seem to be. However how does that explain Raj saying 70-80% of crime is by BIMARU folk? How does that explain violence to Biharis in the past and the one time fleeing of Biharis from Maharashtra.

I doubt Raj is really that much of a nationalist as he publically proclaims or really hates Biharis as much as he publically spouts and am sure this is for political gain, but politicians are opportunists so if he doesn't hesitate to badmouth Biharis would he then not hesitate to do other things to them.

3. A regional party just there to look after Marathi interests and preserve Marathi culture but harmoniously within the union of India (perhaps an idyllic description for them).

Also how does this anti-Sikh rhetoric in Punjab figure in terms of - not Raj and the MNS - but the Shiv Sena?

Also going back to my Muslim Bangladeshi friend, I think Raj is clearly an opportunist and to an extent scared by the powerful and somewhat militant Muslim elements in Mumbai as he clearly avoided confronting them directly over riots a few months back, instead he will pick on easier, weaker targets such as Biharis.

So I see him as an opportunist and politician and clearly not some diehard Marathi patriot.

Most Biharis in Mumbai are also muslims.

 

[ringmaster]

who is going to dig the pitch this time ? wish he had lived longer
dushman mariye te kushi na kariye,sajanna v mar jana.
RIP

 

[Hammer-fist]

Radical what?

Radical as in confrontational politics which inflames communal (as in ethnic tensions).

Radical as in members of other political parties are phsyically attacked in parliament.

 

[WAR-rior]

Re: WAR-rior
Ok so in a sentence how would you describe Raj and BAL and the Shive Sena and MNS?

1. Separatists (they clearly do not seem to be from what you've written but there are youtube comments saying Raj is friends with Pakistan and China, nonsense probably but such comments exist).

2. Racial chauvinists - from what you've written they do not seem to be. However how does that explain Raj saying 70-80% of crime is by BIMARU folk? How does that explain violence to Biharis in the past and the one time fleeing of Biharis from Maharashtra.

I doubt Raj is really that much of a nationalist as he publically proclaims or really hates Biharis as much as he publically spouts and am sure this is for political gain, but politicians are opportunists so if he doesn't hesitate to badmouth Biharis would he then not hesitate to do other things to them.

3. A regional party just there to look after Marathi interests and preserve Marathi culture but harmoniously within the union of India (perhaps an idyllic description for them).

Also how does this anti-Sikh rhetoric in Punjab figure in terms of - not Raj and the MNS - but the Shiv Sena?

Also going back to my Muslim Bangladeshi friend, I think Raj is clearly an opportunist and to an extent scared by the powerful and somewhat militant Muslim elements in Mumbai as he clearly avoided confronting them directly over riots a few months back, instead he will pick on easier, weaker targets such as Biharis.

So I see him as an opportunist and politician and clearly not some diehard Marathi patriot.

Ha Ha. Lyf and Politics are not that generalistic in nature friend.

I wud say the 3rd option is true for these parties. Its a regional party to preserve local interests but again to preserve them its not necessary that harmonious attitude always work. Dont fuget he is dealing with outside parties who themselves are very cunning and non-harmonious in nature.

Its ture that 70 - 80% of crime is done by Non marathis and among them majorly by muslim slum population in Mumbai. Some facts for you, Local administration started a campaign called 'Dharavi Rehabilitation scheme' to eradicate Slums from Mumbai and make it international city. Now please agree that its an honest and right intent for a city.

But suppose if there is no mark of slum getting eradicated then as an administration u wud be concerned and look for the reasons. Right?

Now suddenly if u find that the population in slums have changed demographically over the period of time where earlier slum dwellers are no more there and their place is taken my migrants and that too majorly by muslims, what will u do ? When u see all you efforts are going invain coz the situation is acting like 'emptying a holed boat with bucket'. Temme what wud u do in that case? wont u seal the hole first? Thats what they r trying to do.

Apart from that, the uneducated muslim population in Mumbai slums is increasing radicalization and Crime in the city. This is as per Police FIR records and are undisputed facts. The brothel in Mumbai has very high majority of Muslim prostitutes, mostly Bengali and UP/Bihari muslims. Chor Bazar in Bombay is run by Muslims who were migrants couple of decade back.

Bottomline is, security aspect is highly compromised due to these anti social elements. Also, these muslim people dont care bout law n order due to their arrogance and they are completely opposite to educated muslims of Bombay who are some real responsible citizens. Now, what wud be your reaction politically in this case? U wont see educated muslims ever being targeted or educated north indians ever targeted. I m the biggest example of this.

If an outsider comes and hampers the peace and security of your city, what wud u do.

THIS CASE IS SIMILAR TO THAT OF KARACHI. Pakistanis can understand what i am saying when they see their KArachi culture being superimposed forcefully by uneducated Afgans. See what has this led to their city.

 

[Hammer-fist]

Radical as in people dying.

"Twenty-five-year-old laborer, Dharamdev Rai, hailing from Faizabad in UP died after being beaten up on board a train just outside Mumbai on Tuesday.

On discovering that the laborers were north Indians, the youth reportedly beat them up, before getting off the train at the next station.

The railway police have meanwhile rounded up 10 MNS activists in connection with the incident. The Maharashtra government has asked the Chief Secretary to conduct an enquiry.

MNS is a anti-north Indian group with various cases registered aganist them.

Read More: 25-yr-old labourer beaten to death in Mumbai - India - IBNLive"

 

[t_for_talli]

guys he is not dead yet....his condition is stable now...don't know who is spreading these rumors.......his ghost is haunting some people even when he is alive....jeez!!

Whatever the good side is I got half day because of rumors of Mumbai Bandh

 

[Bhai Zakir]

Sorry to Bust ur Bubbles ... but 99% of us dont give a DAM .... alive or dead.. he is the same for us....

Its same for the Indians too.

Nobody cares about him beyond Mumbai city where he runs a mafia and business in the name of a hate based political party.