Awesome article: MJ Akbar:The habit of bending over backwards

[KS]

Silly article that criticises but doesn't given solutions. MMS is right in seeking peace with Paksitan- any sane person would aspire for this.


The only options are talk or fight, I for one would rather see the former.

NO there is an another option...no talk and no fight. Cut down relations to a bare minimum and put coercive pressure on Pakistan. Now Pakistan knows whatever it does Mr.Maunmohan will simply shake his head as if nothing happened and the "peace" process would continue.

The article is correct - MMS has bent so much in front of Pakistan that it looks he is prostrate in front of him. Peace we want..but not peace at any cost..not at the cost of making us look like fools in front of everybody..not for the sake of his personal legacy.

Did you read his blunder during the Sharm-El-Shaikh and how the NSA was kept out of the loop before his disastorous joint press conference with the Pakistani PM and this was immediately after 26/11 ?

Four days have passed still this peace-seeker has not found it fit to condole the deaths of the soldiers or condemn the Pakistanis for their aggression..This guy is the biggest disaster to strike Prime Minister's office since HD Deve Gowda and IK Gujral.

 

[KS]

In diplomacy it is very important that we set the right tone. We can be flexible and yielding but it should not be construed that we are capitulating to their demands. I think MMS set the right tone in Sharm el Sheikh but our media blew it out of proportion and painted him to be too soft.

Please read how the NSA was kept out of the loop during the joint press conference and we know how it turned to be a disaster. MMS wants to leave a legacy as the man who brought India-Pak peace..but I dont know..he is just naive or plain stupid to not understand that peace, reconciliation, flexibility are all two way streets and not one -way. If I were in Pak's position I would definitely construe this as a sign of meekness, weekness and keep thumbing my nose at this guy knowing whatever I do, I would still be shown concessions in the name of that "peace".

I agree. I like MMS and few others in his party but the rest are cronies and crooks.

That's no defence. As the PM the buck stops at his office..If his cabinet ministers are crooks what stops him from firing them and replacing them..? oh wait, for that 10 Janpath has to give approval.

The problem with Pakistan is we do no know who is control. Its the hawks who seem to be running the show but the problem is that they do it behind the scenes. They rarely sit with u in the discussions.

Precisely..so unless that becomes clear..we just suspend these talks.

 

[Abingdonboy]

NO there is an another option...no talk and no fight. Cut down relations to a bare minimum and put coercive pressure on Pakistan. Now Pakistan knows whatever it does Mr.Maunmohan will simply shake his head as if nothing happened and the "peace" process would continue.

The article is correct - MMS has bent so much in front of Pakistan that it looks he is prostrate in front of him. Peace we want..but not peace at any cost..not at the cost of making us look like fools in front of everybody..not for the sake of his personal legacy.

Did you read his blunder during the Sharm-El-Shaikh and how the NSA was kept out of the loop before his disastorous joint press conference with the Pakistani PM and this was immediately after 26/11 ?

Four days have passed still this peace-seeker has not found it fit to condole the deaths of the soldiers or condemn the Pakistanis for their aggression..This guy is the biggest disaster to strike Prime Minister's office since HD Deve Gowda and IK Gujral.

I agree sir that India should not take the peace at whatever cost line. But at the same time your idea of stripping back ties and placing economic pressure on Paksitan- this will only lead to more hatred for India in Paksitan and more support for illicit activity against India by Pakistan. 26/11s could be attempted on a annual basis.


I don't think you can call MMS, in fact he has shown great commitment to his cause for peace despite all the cas for harder action. It is because of his and a few others' cool heads and wisdom that India hasn't entered into conflict with Pakistan for over a decade now. I agree though that there needs to be a carrot and stick approach to all this and a there needs to be a deterant to Paksistan from carry out any aggressive action against India.


But international diplomacy is a treacherous task at the best of times in the India and Pakistan consequence it is almost impossible. The line you have to walk is inherently dangerous and there are no ideal solutions out there. The current MMS- led process is as good as it is going to get. India is getting pretty much all it wants, it is talking about what it wants to and is not talking a out what it doesn't (Kashmir, Sir Creek, Siachin etc) and the Pakistani side are being allowed to save face but this round if talks is very favourable for India. Back in 2006 I had heard there was a deal in the table that pretty much gave India all it wanted on many issues but gave enough to Paksitan to make the deal palatable to their public. This deal was scrapped because of 26/11. India and Pakistan can't keep going around in circles for enternity. Both sides have to compromise somewhere along the line and no deal is going to be ide for everyone, we don't live in an ideal world.

 

[Mech]

Why is it so hard to simply severe all ties ? Why make conciliatory overtures ? They serve no purpose to us, and there is nothing to be gained from a duplicitioius relationship. Stop inviting their cricket teams, stop trading with them, bar pakistanis from entering India......why is it so hard ?

Dont have to hate......but why is apathy not a solution ?

 

[Mech]

Another thing i dont get....why does our govt. keep saying " Stable pakistan is in India's interest". Clearly, even a semblance of stability there results in trouble at LoC.

 

[Contrarian]

Stable but boiling Pakistan is in India's interest. If Pakistan fails as a state, it would be nightmare for India.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Another thing i dont get....why does our govt. keep saying " Stable pakistan is in India's interest". Clearly, even a semblance of stability there results in trouble at LoC.

Because a stable Paksitan IS in India's interests. If Pakistan is focusing on economic growth the they will cut out at the funding of terrorists and the emphasis will change from attacking India to gaining prosperity. An unstable Paksitan is a major threat to India and is not ideal.

Why is it so hard to simply severe all ties ?

Geographical constraints.

 

[RiazHaq]

MJ Akbar, an Indian Muslim eager to prove his patriotism, has the same problem that Hindutva fanatics in India suffer from--it's called Israel Envy.

Unfortunately, it is not just the average middle class urban Indian that suffers from "Israel envy". Indian strategists and military brass are also afflicted by it. Respected American South Asia expert Stephen Cohen of Washington's Brookings Institution recently told his audience: "Not a few Indian generals and strategists have told me that if only America would strip Pakistan of its nuclear weapons then the Indian army could destroy the Pakistan army and the whole thing would be over."

Former UN diplomat and current Indian MP Sashi Tharoor described India's "Israel envy" and warned Indians against it in the following words:

Hamas is in no position to repay Israel's air and ground attacks in kind, whereas an Indian attack on Pakistani territory, even one targeting terrorist bases and training camps, would invite swift retaliation from the Pakistani army. And, at the end of the day, one chilling fact would prevent India from thinking that it could use Israel's playbook: The country that condones, if not foments, the terror attacks on India is a nuclear power.

Haq's Musings: India's Israel Envy

 

[indushek]

I agree sir that India should not take the peace at whatever cost line. But at the same time your idea of stripping back ties and placing economic pressure on Paksitan- this will only lead to more hatred for India in Paksitan and more support for illicit activity against India by Pakistan. 26/11s could be attempted on a annual basis.


I don't think you can call MMS, in fact he has shown great commitment to his cause for peace despite all the cas for harder action. It is because of his and a few others' cool heads and wisdom that India hasn't entered into conflict with Pakistan for over a decade now. I agree though that there needs to be a carrot and stick approach to all this and a there needs to be a deterant to Paksistan from carry out any aggressive action against India.


But international diplomacy is a treacherous task at the best of times in the India and Pakistan consequence it is almost impossible. The line you have to walk is inherently dangerous and there are no ideal solutions out there. The current MMS- led process is as good as it is going to get. India is getting pretty much all it wants, it is talking about what it wants to and is not talking a out what it doesn't (Kashmir, Sir Creek, Siachin etc) and the Pakistani side are being allowed to save face but this round if talks is very favourable for India. Back in 2006 I had heard there was a deal in the table that pretty much gave India all it wanted on many issues but gave enough to Paksitan to make the deal palatable to their public. This deal was scrapped because of 26/11. India and Pakistan can't keep going around in circles for enternity. Both sides have to compromise somewhere along the line and no deal is going to be ide for everyone, we don't live in an ideal world.

From how many Generals of Pakistan you have heard this line that enough is enough and we should get along?? it is only our leaders who talk such talk vis a vis Pakistan. This has got to do with vote bank politics and putting some imaginary pressure on Pakistan according to the friendly neighbor diplomat in South bloc as it makes us Indians peaceniks and them unready for this step forward.This is a load of infact a big pile $hit.

You seem to be following the line about how we are getting all goodies from Pakistan while they are left penniless, it is always important to remember that in a diplomatic or strategic game the opponent should never be underestimated. If Pakistan is accepting to not discuss these thorny issues it is also not addressing our main bone of contention cross border visitors. The policy of Pakistan on inhouse Taliban and outside Taliban is still different.

There was some excited discussion on green book of Pakistan this year and the statement of Kayani of how the internal enemy is taking precedence over the no 1 threat India. Within days this incident took place. The problem with the too much giving of current Govt is that they aren't producing any coherence in their policy about Pakistan. Either they cut off everything and sabre rattle unnecessarily when we should talk or they prostrate when we should be angry. Compromise we should but on main issues which will produce results. Not on the situations like present. The article clearly states that we know only two ends either go ape $hit bat $hit or prostrate. India could have done many things here on a already burdened Pakistan. The PM could have voiced his strong displeasure, we could have recalled some ambassdor or important personality etc etc.

If the PM himself keeps quiet for more than two days and the Pakistani makes it look like we started it and some part of our media comes out with same story, what do u think is happening. The Govt clearly has left the army to dogs in this matter by not siding with them.

If politicians say that what can we do other than either talk or fight, it means they are either incompetent or dishonest.

 

[jha]

Just and Proportinate reply will be given in due time like it was given in past.

 

[my2cents]

Back in 2006 I had heard there was a deal in the table that pretty much gave India all it wanted on many issues but gave enough to Paksitan to make the deal palatable to their public. This deal was scrapped because of 26/11. India and Pakistan can't keep going around in circles for enternity. Both sides have to compromise somewhere along the line and no deal is going to be ide for everyone, we don't live in an ideal world.

If my recollection is right, at that time Mr. Musharraf was proposing something 'out of box' thinking .......

Make LOC irrelevant and have free flow of people on both sides.
No plebiscite to decide the fate on Kashmir.
Joint management established to over see self rule of Kashmir people .
And gradual withdrawal of troops in a phased manner.

Even India came close to accepting because the borders don't have to be redrawn and any solution is acceptable within this context. Even Pakistan came close to acknowledge India's view that Kashmir cannot be separated from the Union. All this came to an end after 26/11 happened and we cut of all ties. Because of trust deficit we have to restart fresh our composite dialogue.

 

[trinity]

NO there is an another option...no talk and no fight. Cut down relations to a bare minimum and put coercive pressure on Pakistan. Now Pakistan knows whatever it does Mr.Maunmohan will simply shake his head as if nothing happened and the "peace" process would continue.

The article is correct - MMS has bent so much in front of Pakistan that it looks he is prostrate in front of him. Peace we want..but not peace at any cost..not at the cost of making us look like fools in front of everybody..not for the sake of his personal legacy.

Did you read his blunder during the Sharm-El-Shaikh and how the NSA was kept out of the loop before his disastorous joint press conference with the Pakistani PM and this was immediately after 26/11 ?

Four days have passed still this peace-seeker has not found it fit to condole the deaths of the soldiers or condemn the Pakistanis for their aggression..This guy is the biggest disaster to strike Prime Minister's office since HD Deve Gowda and IK Gujral.

Exactly KS. Don;t fight or talk just focus on India and what;s best within our borders. Rebuild, replan the border properly tkaing modern tech and defences/offences into consideration. I met MMS more than a decade ago when he was a finance minsiter and I told him to his face, " You are a good hearted and just man. You will go far but the problem is that you are a sheep surrounded by wolves." He smirked. But my visions at the time, told me the problems that would crop up. MMS is right for pushing for peace but what he fails to understand peace is not a 1 way street. It takes both or more sides to push for it. When the govt of Pakistan is ineffective and the power is truly controlled by the military, we are just wasting our time. Whatever comes up good or bad will only be temporary when their military has only one goal, one focus in mind. Can you guess what it is? Its not about peace, I can tell you that.

If my recollection is right, at that time Mr. Musharraf was proposing something 'out of box' thinking .......

Make LOC irrelevant and have free flow of people on both sides.
No plebiscite to decide the fate on Kashmir.
Joint management established to over see self rule of Kashmir people .
And gradual withdrawal of troops in a phased manner.

Even India came close to accepting because the borders don't have to be redrawn and any solution is acceptable within this context. Even Pakistan came close to acknowledge India's view that Kashmir cannot be separated from the Union. All this came to an end after 26/11 happened and we cut of all ties. Because of trust deficit we have to restart fresh our composite dialogue.

What fools. What has given you any thoughts that such "out of the box" thinking was truly sincere.

 

[livingdead]

Those criticizing MMS should tell what alternative action he can take. Also, I tend to think the recent border clash is due to both sides.
Most of our news media gives one sided govt version of story( too much patriotism?).
I am no aman ki asha type but blaming pakistan for everything and threatening her from time to time serves no purpose. You just put our friends there on backfoot and show the world that you are not serious to normalize relation.
MJ Akbar is one of those smart, intelligent and articulate people who dont want to use their brain. And he is our best journalist? What a shame.

 

[my2cents]

Those criticizing MMS should tell what alternative action he can take. Also, I tend to think the recent border clash is due to both sides.
Most of our news media gives one sided govt version of story( too much patriotism?).
I am no aman ki asha type but blaming pakistan for everything and threatening her from time to time serves no purpose. You just put our friends there on backfoot and show the world that you are not serious to normalize relation.
MJ Akbar is one of those smart, intelligent and articulate people who dont want to use their brain. And he is our best journalist? What a shame.

Maybe want to join politics again and wants to be noncontroversial. Anyway I will not blame him because there are no easy answers.

 

[Dance]

Shouldn't the Indians advocating cutting off all relations with Pakistan and that want nothing do with Pakistan lead by example by stop using a PAKISTANI forum?