Avalanche traps about 150 Pakistani soldiers

[Capt.Popeye]

Yes...i am totally aware of that fact....still i stand by my point....Protocols need to be followed stringently and should not be altered with just to speed up the death benefits to family members...As said even the family members will take this false hope with both hands....There is work going on to find these men and nothing should be concluded unless and until there is concrete proofs. b/w we are not talking about years here....sooner or later rescue workers will reach these men....until then let's hold all these thoughts....

I believe if we somehow channel our energy in making the rescue work fasten then that would be a far better job than declaring them dead for the sake of speedy death benfits for the family members....Listen miracles do happen....why rule them out in this case??? Almighty is far more powerful then our figment of imagination, no???



And ISPR is making a very sane request...Assuming media is adhering to the advice...



Your point is very valid as far legality of the issue is concerned...but i am still at loss about the expected time frame that you have in yor mind till rescue workers reach these men....can you please elaborate???

You don't need a logic for hoping something to happen....Are you denying that miracles do happen??? if no then why are you saying futile wishes for miracle?? By definition miracle means something which logically is impossible to occur, no??

Let me address the underlined part (since it was a response to my post):
There is not any time frame that can be determined for that purpose. Its just that when all reasonable hopes of finding survivors have faded or have been eliminated. Here you have said "till rescue workers reach these men". In the light of the physical dimensions of the mishap as well as the time that has elapsed, what do you think that the rescue workers will reach? I can tell you, but will leave that exercise for you using your faculties.

Just frame two questions to assess that: 'what will the rescue workers reach (even today) and when will the rescue workers reach'?

I said what I said on the basis of my familiarity with SAR ops (though not an alpine environment) and with the procedural actions that are involved as well. However, the environment was a critical factor till the Ops were in rescue phase, now its not so critical.

Let me give you an example of another SAR ops; that of the Emperor Chandragupta (AI-855) air crash on 1st Jan 1978. 213 crew and pax perished in that disaster just off the coast of Bombay. A massive SAR op. involving the IN, IAF and numerous civil agencies was mounted which soon enough was clearly a recovery op. Many bodies were recovered, but not all; it was just physically not possible. Because there was nothing to recover. Identification was possible in some cases, but not all because there was'nt much available to identify, using methods of that time (no DNA testing). All that was in a disaster site that was relatively accessible in physical terms. Otherwise, we have the case of the Air France flight from Paris to Rio which went down in the S.Atlantic, what was physically found and recovered?

Miracles may happen. I know of one in the case of AI-855; a close relative who survived the crash, because he did'nt take the flight due to a stomach-ache. But having seen the other side at the crash site ops. I can say that no miracle took place there.

In the end some closure will eventually have to be put on this huge tragedy that has occurred at Giyari. For the authorities it will be at an official level, while for the families/dependants it will be more at a sentimental level.
It will not be easy, but will still have to be done.

 

[VCheng]

.................
You don't need a logic for hoping something to happen....Are you denying that miracles do happen??? if no then why are you saying futile wishes for miracle?? By definition miracle means something which logically is impossible to occur, no??

"When we constantly ask for miracles, we're unraveling the fabric of the world. A world of continuous miracles would not be a world, it would be a cartoon." - Doug Coupland

There will be no miracle in Gayari.

 

[deckingraj]

Your examples are very valid and i did get the message you want to convey...editing them just for the sake of size...Let me answer the two very valid questions...

Let me address the underlined part (since it was a response to my post):
There is not any time frame that can be determined for that purpose. Its just that when all reasonable hopes of finding survivors have faded or have been eliminated. Here you have said "till rescue workers reach these men". In the light of the physical dimensions of the mishap as well as the time that has elapsed, what do you think that the rescue workers will reach? I can tell you, but will leave that exercise for you using your faculties.

Just frame two questions to assess that: 'what will the rescue workers reach (even today) and when will the rescue workers reach'?

Look i am not contesting that there is hardly a chance of any survival....I believe no one with a sane mind can contest that...Rescue workers will most probably going to find the bodies of some great men of an enemy state...But since they are soldiers we all have a soft corner for them(including you)....Now as far as how long this exercise is going to take then i am sure this is not an exercise for years....Only 3 weeks have passed so far...Let's not jump the gun here...Let the people who are working on the ground conclude their operation...I am sure no one is going to keep digging just for the sake of digging....Look I am not able to comprehend that what is the hurry in declaring them dead?? There are many instances where things have happened defying all the logics...

"When we constantly ask for miracles, we're unraveling the fabric of the world. A world of continuous miracles would not be a world, it would be a cartoon." - Doug Coupland

There will be no miracle in Gayari.

A world of continuous miracles would not be a world, it would be a cartoon....But what about the world with no miracles??? Look as said any sane mind will say there is hardly any hope....but then there is a thin line between insanity and miracles

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Your examples are very valid and i did get the message you want to convey...editing them just for the sake of size...Let me answer the two very valid questions...



Look i am not contesting that there is hardly a chance of any survival....I believe no one with a sane mind can contest that...Rescue workers will most probably going to find the bodies of some great men of an enemy state...But since they are soldiers we all have a soft corner for them(including you)....Now as far as how long this exercise is going to take then i am sure this is not an exercise for years....Only 3 weeks have passed so far...Let's not jump the gun here...Let the people who are working on the ground conclude their operation...I am sure no one is going to keep digging just for the sake of digging....Look I am not able to comprehend that what is the hurry in declaring them dead?? There are many instances where things have happened defying all the logics...

No, you do not seem to understand the reality of it all, but that is not so important. Nobody is digging for the sake of digging and nobody is in a hurry to declare anybody dead. Certainly not the PA, but they know what they are involved in; and being professionals will deal with it completely professionally.

Let me tell you something; every Man who dons uniform (and his family) knows (and constantly lives with)the element of risk. That is one of the first and basic principles that he imbibes. And which he (and his family) are always subconsciously prepared for. The dreaded lines which say "Regret to inform............(or something to that effect)."
Both the potential senders and the receivers of such a signal (or message) are mentally prepared for that. Some of our colleagues here for example, VCheng and Kakgeta can attest to that. It is'nt easy, it is'nt simple but its a reality; as much as the phenomena of birth and death.

I guess that you or members of your family have not encountered this kind of life or situation, hence your reactions as above.

Hope gives strength; immense strength. But Reality is the ultimate arbiter.

 

[alibaz]

A world of continuous miracles would not be a world, it would be a cartoon....But what about the world with no miracles??? Look as said any sane mind will say there is hardly any hope....but then there is a thin line between insanity and miracles

Wah Bhai wah kya bat ki hai. I loved it.

 

[VCheng]

..........But what about the world with no miracles???............

That would be a thing called "reality".

 

[Jango]

Reality is a mere illusion...albeit a very persistent one. ( Einstein)

 

[VCheng]

Reality is a mere illusion...albeit a very persistent one. ( Einstein)

Yes, but in this case, at least I am under no illusions as to the real outcome, unlike others, sadly.

 

[AdeelFaheem]

Giyaari Soldiers:

Ya Allah, Ya Raheem, Ya Kareem
Ay Wo Qadir e Mutliq k jis nay Hazrat Ibraheem A.S ko Bharakti hoi AAG mai
Zinda Rakha aur Khilaya Aur Pilaya, Aur Ashab e Kuhaf ko 300 sal tak Sula diya
aur Zinda Rakha aur Khilaya aur Pilaya, Hazarat Yousaf A.S ko Kuwen main apni
Madad say Nawaza, Hazrat Mosa A.S aur un ke Qaum ko Firoon say Nijat delayee,
Hazrat Younus A.S ko 40 din tak Machli k Pait mai Zinda Rakha, aur Khilaya aur Pilaya...
Ay Malikul Mulk
Hamaray jo Fauji Bhai Baraf talay Dabay hoye hain, Ya Allal on ke Hifazat Farmayen, Onhain
Apnay pas say Khilayen Pilayen Aur Apnay Hifz o Aaman mai Zinda Rakhain aur Phir say Onhain hum
say aur apnay Ghar walon say Mila dain... Aameen Sum Aameen !!!

- Aaiyah Arz Guzarain k Nigar e Hasti
Zehr e Imroz mai Shirini e Farda Bhar Day
- Wo Jinhain Tab e Giran, Bari e Ayyam Nahi
Onke Palkon py Shab o Roz ko halka kr Day
- Jin ke Aankhon ko Rukh e Subh ka Yaara b Nahi
On ke Ratoon mai Koi Shamah Munawar kr Day
- Jin k Qadmon ko Kisi Rah ka Sahara b Nahi
On ke Nazron mai Koi Rah Ujagar kar Day
(Faiz Sahab)

 

[VCheng]

..................
Hamaray jo Fauji Bhai Baraf talay Dabay hoye hain, Ya Allal on ke Hifazat Farmayen, Onhain
Apnay pas say Khilayen Pilayen Aur Apnay Hifz o Aaman mai Zinda Rakhain aur Phir say Onhain hum
say aur apnay Ghar walon say Mila dain... Aameen Sum Aameen !!!..............

The shuhahda are indeed in Allah's hifazat now, and their ghar walas (and all of us as well) will meet them some day too. It is inevitable.

Such are the ways of Allah.

 

[regular]

The shuhahda are indeed in Allah's hifazat now, and their ghar walas (and all of us as well) will meet them some day too. It is inevitable.

Such are the ways of Allah.

Yes! thats why we don't need to make big plans for our lives cuz they are too short nowadyz.....everything gonna be left here....

 

[deckingraj]

You guessed it right..none of my immediate family is serving the armed forces...may that is the gap b/w us...

No, you do not seem to understand the reality of it all, but that is not so important. Nobody is digging for the sake of digging and nobody is in a hurry to declare anybody dead. Certainly not the PA, but they know what they are involved in; and being professionals will deal with it completely professionally.

and that's why if Kayani is using a word then we should stick to it...this is probably the issue from where this debate started...no??

Let me tell you something; every Man who dons uniform (and his family) knows (and constantly lives with)the element of risk. That is one of the first and basic principles that he imbibes. And which he (and his family) are always subconsciously prepared for. The dreaded lines which say "Regret to inform............(or something to that effect)."
Both the potential senders and the receivers of such a signal (or message) are mentally prepared for that. Some of our colleagues here for example, VCheng and Kakgeta can attest to that. It is'nt easy, it is'nt simple but its a reality; as much as the phenomena of birth and death.

I don't have any first hand experience but if i take your argument a step further we all know we are going to die...but that doesn't mean i am prepared to die??...Our armed forces and their relatives are also human's like us...so i am not sure if you are making it too simplistic by saying that they are prepared but since you would surely know better(assuming you do have first hand experience) i will leave the argument right here...

Hope gives strength; immense strength. But Reality is the ultimate arbiter.

No denying the above line...

That would be a thing called "reality".

perhaps you need to learn/read about the reality of miracles....They are there and like it or not but they are going away!!!

 

[VCheng]

..............
perhaps you need to learn/read about the reality of miracles....They are there and like it or not but they are going away!!!

I would love to respond to that, but it would take away from the solemn topic of this thread.

=============================================

I hope that recovery of the bodies happens soon so that families can have closure of some sort at least.

 

[Safriz]

:: ISPR :: Inter Services Public Relations - PAKISTAN

Chief of Army Staff, General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani visited Gayari, today, to see the progress of rescue efforts.

COAS was briefed about the progress of ongoing work including the efforts to create a water course to safely drain the lake formed by blocking of Gayari river by the avalanche. The satellite data link also became operational today, which will allow real time video monitoring of relief work from GHQ.

COAS remained with the troops for some time and lauded their motivation in face of tough conditions and extreme weather. He appreciated their resolve to upkeep Army’s proud tradition of not leaving a man behind, until humanly possible, regardless of cost.

COAS was also accompanied by Commander Rawalpindi Corps and a media team, invited to witness firsthand, the ongoing activities at disaster site.

Chief of Army Staff, General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani during his visit to Gayari on Thursday with father of Major Zaka, who came under avalanche on 7 April 2012, talking to journalists. (03-05-2012)- Photo ISPR

 

[Jango]

Is that bearded man in shalwar kamees the majors father?

Kudos to the old man, up there for his son. Did he go there with the trip or is he their himself voluntarily?