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Ataturk's Legacy vs Caliphate and implications for Pakistan

Their were no cameras during peek of Otoman empire.

I do not get your stance.

How he be a Muslim when people like you and him have no respect for Islam.

Its already a establish fact that he was a freemason.

Ottoman royal family still exists. Dressed as European style.

I didnt say that he is a Muslim. I said he came from a Muslim Turkish family. Contrary to your claim that He is Jew. There is strong evidence that He is not Muslim. If i claim that he is Muslim, you can counter my claim, and you can Beat me with the speeches of Ataturk. I aint claiming he is Muslim. But his family is Muslim and Turk in origin.

Freemason issue and Jewish connection of Ittihat ve Terakki party is a discussion which Will never end. First, You have to understand the dynamics of the 1908 revolution against monarchy.
 
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If you ask Islamists, there is many facts about him, although they're indecieve about if he's Jewish or Christian or Atheist or freemason or illuminati or any other sh.t :)
According to turks in this thread ataturk was neither a muslim, freemason, jewish or atheist then the question is what was his religion?
You remember that I told you to think about his logic ? so what is the results ?
The result is, he was a homosexual?
Btw
Sultan Mahmut 2 before his reforms
Which part of "peek of otoman empire" do you not understand? Sultan Mahmut 2 was a leader during worst condition of Otoman thus he is excluded.
And btw, their is no harm in wearing western cloths as long as it is modest however their is harm when immodest dress code is forced upon Muslim women.
 
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According to turks in this thread ataturk was neither a muslim, freemason, jewish or atheist then the question is what was his religion?

Tomorrow I am going to apply for PhD in university. Tonight I am discussing whether founder of Turkish Republic is Jew or not. :D

Can you be sure that tomorrow or next year or at he end of your life you wont be an atheist? I have seen Alevis, Shamanists. There are many possibilities about what he might be.

Are you a homosexual?
 
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Let me give you a simple answer. Allah made this earth for the humans to dwell in and did not create boundaries for Muslims to live in! Allah has not forbidden us from living in non-muslim land

Except the problem arises when muslims who are from a secular country, criticise secularism to no end yet decide to remain in that country and reap the benefits that it provides. It would make much more sense for critics of secularism to strive to move to an Islamic country or a country that best suits their ideology.

however when it comes to ruling Muslim land, it is then obligatory on us to rule according to what allah has revealed.

Ah, the rigid way of thinking that religion has provided us with - we must rule by what our God has revealed because our God said so. :)
 
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Why do you think Ottomans get worse in conditions ? tried to imitate West ? because while West was rapidly developing, they were rapidly getting more backward, they were not able to catch their advance, thats why they wanted to imitate them, same logic wit hthe Ataturk.

Ataturk never declared I'm this, I'm that etc., but he was probably least religious if not Atheist, and please stop these immature actions.
 
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According to turks in this thread ataturk was neither a muslim, freemason, jewish or atheist then the question is what was his religion?

The result is, he was a homosexual?

Which part of "peek of otoman empire" do you not understand? Sultan Mahmut 2 was a leader during worst condition of Otoman thus he is excluded.
And btw, their is no harm in wearing western cloths as long as it is modest however their is harm when immodest dress code is forced upon Muslim women.

Why are you living in US if you hate secularism and western things so much . I cant imagine what they do in US streets and what things they wear.
 
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Ottoman royal family still exists. Dressed as European style.
this faimly should be excluded because i specifically mentioned the peek of otoman empire and this faimly is part of worst condition of otoman.
I didnt say that he is a Muslim. I said he came from a Muslim Turkish family. Contrary to your claim that He is Jew. There is strong evidence that He is not Muslim. If i claim that he is Muslim, you can counter my claim, and you can Beat me with the speeches of Ataturk. I aint claiming he is Muslim. But his family is Muslim and Turk in origin.
Ataturk was a descendant of 17th-century Jewish false messiah Sabbatai Tzwi (Zevi) and his family background is jewish so without shadow of a dough Ataturk was a Jewish disguised as Muslim.
Freemason issue and Jewish connection of Ittihat ve Terakki party is a discussion which Will never end. First, You have to understand the dynamics of the 1908 revolution against monarchy.
Kamalist syndrome = delusional.

Tomorrow I am going to apply for PhD in university. Tonight I am discussing whether founder of Turkish Republic is Jew or not. :D
good luck with your educational endeavors.
Can you be sure that tomorrow or next year or at he end of your life you wont be an atheist? I have seen Alevis, Shamanists. There are many possibilities about what he might be.
I was close to being atheist until I discovered Islam once again now Islam is my brain and heart.
Are you a homosexual?
alhamdulillah i am straight and going to marry soon with a pious righteous and a beautiful girl that allah will bless me with.

Except the problem arises when muslims who are from a secular country, criticise secularism to no end yet decide to remain in that country and reap the benefits that it provides. It would make much more sense for critics of secularism to strive to move to an Islamic country or a country that best suits their ideology.
Kid, their is no such thing as "Islamic country" because neither saudia arabia afganistan pakistan iran etc is mentioned in quran hadis or sunnah so like i said before, if what i desire is restored in Muslim world then i will happily move.

Ah, the rigid way of thinking that religion has provided us with - we must rule by what our God has revealed because our God said so. :)
Their is your problem then.
 
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Why do you think Ottomans get worse in conditions ? tried to imitate West ? because while West was rapidly developing, they were rapidly getting more backward, they were not able to catch their advance, thats why they wanted to imitate them, same logic wit hthe Ataturk.
History tells us that every Empire rises and falls, otoman was one of them and West empire will be one of them.
And your comment also proves that Turkey is a product of British empire and Ataturk is among traitors in Otoman empire.
Ataturk never declared I'm this, I'm that etc., but he was probably least religious if not Atheist, and please stop these immature actions.
One does not need to declare his faith front of the world, however his actions proves that he was not a muslim and embraced occult religion in secrecy.

Why are you living in US if you hate secularism and western things so much . I cant imagine what they do in US streets and what things they wear.

I think i have already answered this many many times.
 
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There have been lots of arguments regarding the formation of "secular" democratic & an "Islamic" democratic state. The truth is that if both parties aren't aware of the reasons behind the Islamic stance against secularism, all discussions regarding this topic will enter an infinite loop. So I think I should shed some light upon how things work in an Islamic & secular state.

I brought up the term "sovereignty" before, it basically refers to the supreme authority an individual or government may have over a geographical area. Thus, from the Islamic perspective; "sovereignty" belongs to God. The reason being that the entire universe functions with will & scientific designs of God, & since He is the creator, He alone has supreme authority over His creation. According to the Quran; God created Adam so that Adam may worship Him & consequently be tested as His vicegerent or representative on Earth. After Adam's demise, this authority was transferred to his descendants, & they were instructed to implement God's law over their respective nations. The message being given to us here is that revoking God's authority in a Muslim majority state is equivalent to the violation of His sovereignty. Fast forward to the era of the final Prophet. Muhammad (may peace be upon him) received revelations in the first Arab Islamic state of Madinah, some of these revelations consisted of punishments & rulings pertaining to a variety of situations ranging from inheritance to the punishment of murder. The Prophet was the teacher, the judge, the lawgiver, the commander, & the king simultaneously. Keep in mind that the Prophet also asked & held discussions with his companions over administrative & other worldly issues. Religious rulings however were always instructed by him based upon the commandments of God.

After the Prophet's demise, the borders of the Caliphate began to expand beyond Arabia. It's clear that new laws were required to rule over the vast territories of the empire. For example; previously the state of Madinah did not have a paid organized army, instead it relied upon volunteers to defend the land. Now however, the Muslims needed a paid & organized army to defend the caliphate's territory & the technique adopted to keep a record of the soldiers & their payments originated from the Byzantine empire. Furthermore all matters & laws relating to worldly affairs were decided upon by consultation using the Quran & sunnah as basis to avoid deviation from religion. Do you realize what this means? This means that in an Islamic democracy Muslims lack the authority to modify certain divine rulings. For example, the punishment for an adulterer is stoning to death, & this punishment may not be modified just because the Islamic society no longer agrees with this punishment, but as always there are exceptions. The laws pertaining to polygamy, the age restrictions of marriage, or even chopping the hand of a thief may be modified according to the needs of the society. For instance a needy & starving individual's hand may not be chopped off, whereas an individual making a legal living would get his or her hand chopped if he or she were to steal for greater illegal gains.

Let me provide you with an example of how new laws may possibly be derived from the sharia. Slander is a crime in which an individual makes malicious or defamatory remarks against the victim for the purpose of tarnishing the individual's good name. In modern times the crime of defamation can be committed through a variety of tools such as the Internet. Thus, the Islamic state can punish a person for the crime of defamation based upon on lets say a comment on a social network. In this scenario however, the state must take in to consideration the possibility of identity theft & legislate laws & procedures to prove that the slanderer is identified with the appropriate online identity. Another interesting contention is that the Islamic law is only applicable upon those that claim to be Muslims & upon those who accept to have their cases judged on the basis of sharia. Under certain circumstances punishments ascribed in the sharia may be applicable upon non-Muslims too. The proof of this comes from the various courts within the caliphate itself. Jews, Christians, & Zoroastrians had their own courts & judges to deal with all religious matters pertaining to them. Sometimes, acts forbidden for Muslims were legalized for minorities. For example; some Zoroastrians had incestuous marriages within the family, & while that is haram according to the sharia law, it was legal under the caliphate for Zoroastrians. This is proof that the Islamic state theoretically guarantees the protection of the rights of the minorities. This also implies that a modern Islamic state has the authority to allow the sale & production alcohol for non-Muslims provided that it is non-Muslims that produce & sell it.

Besides all this, an Islamic state is supposed to guarantee the freedom of religion & the protection of the holy sites of non-Muslims. An Islamic state must guarantee & protect the freedom of speech, thought, & expression at all costs for both Muslims & non-Muslims. Why then are people against the formation of an Islamic state? The reason is that the theoretical Islamic state isn't always pragmatic. The modern Islamic states closely resemble Medieval Europe & they symbolize oppression, suppression of intellectual activities, corruption, & decadence. Minorities are oppressed, their sacred sites aren't protected. The freedom of speech, expression, & thought is restricted via un-Islamic laws such as the blasphemy law, & progression is discouraged under the guise of preserving Islamic traditions. Civil liberties are limited in practice. If these issues were to be resolved, I am certain that more people would be willing to live in an Islamic state.

I am a bit tired of typing a response to this topic at the moment, & I will discuss some aspects of a secular state later in part 2 of my post. I hope you enjoyed reading my post & opinions, thanks.
 
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It was ok when you asked such ranting question the first time in this thread but now it seems like you are just trolling.

I choose not to gratify this with a reply.

Let me give you a simple answer. Allah made this earth for the humans to dwell in and did not create boundaries for Muslims to live in!

Allah made everything including those things that are forbidden. It is for us to extrapolate what is permissible in light of the Islamic writings and application of reason.

Allah has not forbidden us from living in non-muslim land

Please define what you mean by non Muslim land? All of the earth [land] was made by Allah and therefore how do you decide what is Muslim land and what is not?

however when it comes to ruling Muslim land, it is then obligatory on us to rule according to what allah has revealed.

Being a Muslim is a fixed reality. Are you suggesting that it is not obligatory on a Muslim to be ruled by what Allah has revealed? That such a requirement is dictated by geography?

Is there two two set of requirements on Muslims? One for Muslim lands and other for Muslim lands?


Finally you still fail to answer my question. Why is secularism so toxic to a Muslim in Pakistan? However it is perfectly acceptable for you in USA to live amidst a secular culture yet you don't think it has any negative influence on your faith.

Being exposed to half naked women or seeing drink on sale on every street corner is as unhealthy in Pakistan as it is in USA. Why are you only concerned about the negative effects of secularism in Pakistan or Turkey but you are perfectly happy to live with it in USA. Explain this contradiction please?

Please illustrate how:-

Secularism in Pakistan is unhealthy on Muslims but the same
Secularism in USA is acceptable to Muslims like you?
 
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Being a Muslim is a fixed reality. Are you suggesting that it is not obligatory on a Muslim to be ruled by what Allah has revealed? That such a requirement is dictated by geography?

I think i have already answered.
Is there two two set of requirements on Muslims? One for Muslim lands and other for Muslim lands?
You mean one for nonmuslim land? Yes.
Finally you still fail to answer my question. Why is secularism so toxic to a Muslim in Pakistan? However it is perfectly acceptable for you in USA to live amidst a secular culture yet you don't think it has any negative influence on your faith.
Many Muslims like me have restrained from abusing freedom of pursing such a culture however unfortunately many have chosen a wrong path.
As for in Muslims land. The reason why secularism is toxic to Muslims is because it promotes immoral culture and when majority of muslim population is exposed to such a fitnah then Muslims are bound to mislead and they may have a harsh consequences in after life. This is why allah and his messenger have made code of life for Muslims for a reason.
Being exposed to half naked women or seeing drink on sale on every street corner is as unhealthy in Pakistan as it is in USA. Why are you only concerned about the negative effects of secularism in Pakistan or Turkey but you are perfectly happy to live with it in USA. Explain this contradiction please?
I have no problem with what ever way of life Non Muslims chose for themselves however being muslims we must be in our limits and be concerned for each other. When I find out a Pakistani muslim girl is involved in immoral activities i personally feel i have been slapped.
 
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Ottoman empire didn't fall actually, others were getting more advanced and Ottomans couldn't caught that advance that in the end they had to imitate them.

My comment proves what ? saying the truths ?

Why you think he must have some kind of occult belief ? can't he be simply Atheist ? or least religious like many people in Turkey ? even if he was Atheist or had any other belief why would it bother us ?
 
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Ottoman empire didn't fall actually, others were getting more advanced and Ottomans couldn't caught that advance that in the end they had to imitate them.
Your logic make absolutely no sense!
Why you think he must have some kind of occult belief ? can't he be simply Atheist ? or least religious like many people in Turkey ? even if he was Atheist or had any other belief why would it bother us ?
I have already provided ample evidence of him being a freemason and will provide the link that proves his jewish faith as well.
When Kemal Ataturk Recited Shema Yisrael: 'It's My Secret Prayer, - Forward | HighBeam Research
 
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Your logic make absolutely no sense!

I have already provided ample evidence of him being a freemason and will provide the link that proves his jewish faith as well.
When Kemal Ataturk Recited Shema Yisrael: 'It's My Secret Prayer, - Forward | HighBeam Research

Because of Ataturk, advancement of christianity into the Muslim soil was halted. Armenians, French, Russians, Greek, British were beaten back. That so called freemason generals of Ottoman army fought and died for The independence of Turkish nation and Muslim nations.

Because of British weakness you had your independence. when Arabs and Kurds attacking Turkish troops siding with Christians and Jews, Ataturk and Ittihat Terakki members were fighting against them.

Read: Jewish Legion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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