Ataturk's Legacy vs Caliphate and implications for Pakistan

[FaujHistorian]

My Dear poster...don't treat me like a pup ! As someone who too has an avid interest in history I would disagree with your assertion that these institutions were core eaten because of the Mullahs - they were not ! Their corruption and nepotism wasn't anymore or anyless then that of Pakistan's present bureaucracy which means nothing that an iron fist will not solve ! Hang the heads of these institutions and the rest will fall in line, either way starting from scratch is always exponentially more taxing and difficult then starting from what you already have and even then it wasn't as if the people changed...truly just the heads did and if it could work for one ideology it could have worked for another as well.

Well I agree. Turkey had two choices.

Where we disagree is that you like the one they didn't take, and I happen to like the one they did.

Apart from my analysis of Ottoman institutions, AtaTurk's choices brought about a strong Turkey. Sure it was much smaller, kind of inwards looking, secular, and yet tolerant and strong.

This is what Pakistan should be striving for. Tolerant, humble, and yet strong country.

The more we emphasize Islamism and Mullahism at this stage, the farther we'll be from the objectives / goals stated in the previous sentence.

Hope you understand.

peace

 

[AtillaHun]

Hi is there any mods out there , because im experiencing extreme racism and still no Ban to IranZamin . This is so sad , people are alowed to be racist to Turks on this forum.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/iranian-defence/202219-iran-caucuses-some-thoughts.html

 

[Indus Pakistan]

I was born in the uk, this is where I live, my home

So being born in UK means your imprisoned in UK? Your dad or your grandad shifted half way across the world to the secular heathen culture of UK. If they could shift here why can't you shift back?

Why have you fallen in love with British Pounds? Or British Secularism? If secularism is so evil as your saying why have you not left this cursed secular UK society?

You complain about secularism being a vice but then choose to make home and live in middle of a secular swamp. If secularism is so toxic then you better get your Muslim a*ss out of the UK before secular culture harms your Muslim way of life.

The secular neo liberals have indeed been almost fatal to the muslim world

Has it now? If secular neo liberalism is so fatal to the Muslim world, is secular neo liberalism healthy for you in UK? Boy you better get out of UK fast before it is fatal to you.

look around and we have assad, gaddaffi, mubarak, attaturk uncaring, unfeeling just concerned about putting muslims down

Have Tony Blair, George Bush, Nicholas Sarkozy been very caring and concerned about Muslims? Did Tony Blair not send over RAF to bomb Iraq and is British Army right now not shooting up your Muslim brothers you hypocrite?

Yet you are happy to make home in the H.M Queen Elizabeth's secular heathen realm. How does it feel knowing you pay for the bullets that kill your Muslim brothers in Afghanistan? Wait a minute ..... I know you don't pay tax to HM Revenue & Customs. You never buy anything lest you pay VAT to HM Revenue which will end up in HM Treasury coffers which is used to pay for British Army.

We cant go back to the mubaraks and attaturks

No we can't can we? We are stuck with PM Cameron and Deputy PM Clegg.

And do you know why I call you a hypocrite? Because you insist on enjoying the hospitality of a secular culture [ UK ], insist on enjoying the economic benefit's of a secular economy [UK] enjoy the benefit's of a secular law [UK] and then after having digested the all the benefits that Queens realm has to offer you then turn around a fart at it. That is nothing but pure unadulterated hypocracy.

If indeed secularism is so evil then how come you swim in it everyday of your life. If it was so evil you would move out of UK because of the evil secularism that you despise. That you choose not to move but instead continue to benefiit by living in UK shows the truth better than any words can.

If it is okay for you to live in a secular liberal society like UK why is it so wrong for Pakistani's or Turks to live in secular liberal states?

Do you have some immunity that rest of the Muslims don't?

@ Armstrong. You make some interesting observations - Will try to reply when I get more time.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

You are blaming him for not being Muslim, pro-Islam enough. Do you also blame him for turning Muslim Ottoman Empire into Turkish nation-state?

The British Empire took advantage and revenge of the worst condition of Ottoman Empire. It was Ottoman empire that fought against the imperialists not modern secular state of Turkey which British empire happily accepted because it meet their agenda. The Ottoman empire didnt meet British empire interest thus a need arise to abolished it.

He said: "I am a Turkish nationalist foremost. I was born as that, I will die as that. I believe Turkic Union will become a reality one day. Even if I dont see it in my lifetime, I will close my eyes dreaming about that." Etc. eTc... (*)

So?

Turkish nationalists are never ever European nor Middleastern. They are being educated/trained to work for Turkic unity.

Yes, you can glorify, propagandize your nationalism but at the end of the day, Secular state of Turkey is a product of British empire and today Turkey is a proud member of NATO, acceding to become EU member. So hell no Turkey is never going to be a entity of it own.

Roots of Turkish nationalism goes back to late Ottoman period. Mustafa Kemal was one of those influenced similar to Enver Paşa the de-facto leader of Ottoman Empire between years 1909-1918.

Turkey has no rights to associate its self with Ottoman Empire's achievements because Turkey fought to get a divorce from Ottoman!

For Abolishing Sultanate and Khilafat, Ataturk was ambitious in nature.
-He lost his father at early age.
-his mother married another man. He had not visit his mother for years.
-He had unlucky private life affairs.

Such as his interest in boys, men (gay affairs) which one of his wife wrote about and the gov is trying its best to conceal such a fact from its people.
Truth About Jewish Gay Dictator Mustafa Kemal Exposed: Freemason Ataturk was a Doenmeh Zionist Jew

Then he started to eliminate any opposition against him. He was a furious man, quickly losing his temper when confronted. He could not have shown mercy to weak figures like Sultan and Caliph. Thats my opinion.

So basically he was a dictator.

 

[clmeta]

Ataturk was a great man and Turkey was lucky that he was a Turk.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Oh Brother,

You call yourself a myth buster, and still believe in all the myths. How ironic.

Clearly portrayed yourself.

1. You create Islamist myth by quoting single ayah totally out of context. This is what munafiqs used to do, and therefore strictly forbidden under any rational system of thinking including the one being discussed in Quran for the specific instances under specific context / circumstances. But Mullahs in pakistan pick and choose single Ayahs for their nefarious and munfiqana purposes.

People like you should have no rights to comment on such matters because you have absolutely no knowledge.
Support your argument with FACTS instead of ridiculing every ayahs with your usual rants. Do note, you are implying that these above ayahs were revealed during a specific period for its time thus has no relevance in today's context. Shame on you because Quran is the book of guidance send not for prophet's time but until the last day!

2. If Pakistan was supposed to be a land of Mullees and Ayatullees, then care to explain the following?A - All the Mullahs including black-faced Mullah Mawdoodi were dead AGAINST the independence of Pakistan.

I dont give a sh-t what your mullah boyfriends were doing or saying during the creation of Pakistan because they are not the custodians of Islam and neither Allah has given them the authority to do so.

B- Pakistan's founder was Jinnah, a cigar smoking, wine drinking, rolls royce traveling, 3-piece wearing, westerner to the core.

And he was opposed to British imperialism. rrrright.

So many Mullahs had already declared Jinnah a Kafir and Pakistan as forbidden land when we the humane Pakistanis got independence.

The Britishers gave Pakistan independence

We were supported by humane Sikhs like Diyal Singh, Hindus like Sir Schotoo Raam, Ahmadis like Sir Zafrullah, countless Shias and so many other minorities.

Why? Jinnah the humane leader had promised them all that in Pakistan everyone will be safe regardless of their religion and ethnicity, everyone will be free.

Pakistan would have NEVER EVER came into being had Muslim not been fooled by false promises of receiving a land run accordingly to Islamic principles. provide any evidence which suggests pro pakistan movement by the people demanded a secular land.

And you my Pakistani brother are here, spreading lies in the name of black faced Mullees.

I am here to separate myth created by brain washed nationalists and your mullee boyfriends.

What a shame. Just open your eyes brother and think from your own brain and not form something injected by petty 2-ana 4-paisa rishwat knor burqa posh Mullahs.

O how did you know i am funded by your Mullee boyfriends.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

So being born in UK means your imprisoned in UK? Your dad or your grandad shifted half way across the world to the secular heathen culture of UK. If they could shift here why can't you shift back?

It was ok when you asked such ranting question the first time in this thread but now it seems like you are just trolling.

Let me give you a simple answer. Allah made this earth for the humans to dwell in and did not create boundaries for Muslims to live in! Allah has not forbidden us from living in non-muslim land however when it comes to ruling Muslim land, it is then obligatory on us to rule according to what allah has revealed.

 

[Alienoz_TR]

The British Empire took advantage and revenge of the worst condition of Ottoman Empire. It was Ottoman empire that fought against the imperialists not modern secular state of Turkey which British empire happily accepted because it meet their agenda. The Ottoman empire didnt meet British empire interest thus a need arise to abolished it.


Turkey has no rights to associate its self with Ottoman Empire's achievements because Turkey fought to get a divorce from Ottoman!


Such as his interest in boys, men (gay affairs) which one of his wife wrote about and the gov is trying its best to conceal such a fact from its people.
Truth About Jewish Gay Dictator Mustafa Kemal Exposed: Freemason Ataturk was a Doenmeh Zionist Jew


So basically he was a dictator.

If Ataturk was Turkish Nationalist, He has no obligation or desire to revive Ottoman Empire. As I said before, intellectual cadres were Nationalists at that time. There was educated vs uneducated clash, in which educated classes strongly supported Nationalism. He had his own agenda, he didnt need British agenda.

Turkey is no Ottoman Empire. Different in nature. My opinion about Ottomans is another discussion, I ll save for another thread.

- You want to hear about his private life. He was interested in women. I know at least 3 affairs, one of which ended in marriage.

- About his Jewishness, there are rumours that he was in Mason Lodge. Most of the Ittihat ve Terakki members attending secret meetings in the Lodge to overthrow Abdulhamit and replace despotic monarchy with constitutional parlamentary monarchy. Yet I have not seen a document about his appliance to Mason Lodge. Please bring credible sources, not misinformation.

Basically he was a dictator. A good dictator. He sacrificied himself for his nation.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

If Ataturk was Turkish Nationalist, He has no obligation or desire to revive Ottoman Empire. As I said before, intellectual cadres were Nationalists at that time. There was educated vs uneducated clash, in which educated classes strongly supported Nationalism. He had his own agenda, he didnt need British agenda.

This is what happens when the values of Islam is missing from the people and leaders are glorified to the status of god. I hope u do know that its "obligatory" on every Muslims to establish system according to what allah has revealed. Turkish Men have no shame in what happened to their mother sisters and daughters dignity when their master forced Turkish women to drop muslim traditional cloths and adopt clothing that exposes half of their body.
If he had his own agendas then it would be different from the British.

- You want to hear about his private life. He was interested in women. I know at least 3 affairs, one of which ended in marriage.

So if ataturk is clean cut straight guy then why is Turkish government hell bent on concealing letters and diaries of ataturk's wife which exposes his homosexuality.

- About his Jewishness, there are rumours that he was in Mason Lodge. Most of the Ittihat ve Terakki members attending secret meetings in the Lodge to overthrow Abdulhamit and replace despotic monarchy with constitutional parlamentary monarchy. Yet I have not seen a document about his appliance to Mason Lodge. Please bring credible sources, not misinformation.

here is a list of Masonic lodges which has admitted ataturk being a freemason.

I do not care who made this website Truth About Jewish Gay Dictator Mustafa Kemal Exposed: Freemason Ataturk was a Doenmeh Zionist Jew but if you click on the links it clearly proves ataturk being a freemason.
Dont worry, in this case even our founding fathers has commonality with ataturk.

Basically he was a dictator. A good dictator. He sacrificied himself for his nation.

Dont freemasons sacrifice for their nations too? after all they are one of the most powerful society in the world.

 

[Alienoz_TR]

Myth buster,

1) Veil or Islamic dress doesnt protect women against Greek, Armenian, British, French soldiers. Bullets protect.

2) You should avoid discussing things that you have No clue about.

3) Freemason lodge was closed by Atatürk in 1935. Later opened in 1948 after his death.

You think you are better than us. Prove it. It was Turks and Tatars who wrote the history, crushed the Crusaders. If you are better, stage is yours. We need soldiers first, not sheeps.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Myth buster,

1) Veil or Islamic dress doesnt protect women against Greek, Armenian, British, French soldiers. Bullets protect.

Since when forcing women to dress in a immodest way helps repel the enemy? Do i have to remind you that Otomans ruled half the world and their women were still dressed in Muslim clothing. BTW it was the Otomans that fought not Turkey and Ataturk dictated his dress code after the war.

2) You should avoid discussing things that you have No clue about.

in another words, truth hurts

3) Freemason lodge was closed by Atatürk in 1935. Later opened in 1948 after his death.

George Washington also closed freemasonic lodges however he himself was a prominent freemason and i believe it was done to conceal Freemasons identity.
If ataturk is not a mason then why hasnt Turkish government appealed for removing his name from numerous freemason lodges.


You think you are better than us. Prove it. It was Turks and Tatars who wrote the history, crushed the Crusaders. If you are better, stage is yours. We need soldiers first, not sheeps.[/QUOTE]

 

[Targon]

My answer was enough guys, don't bother to answer more.

 

[Alienoz_TR]

Show me the picture of Ottoman royal family. Are they dressed in Islamic way?
Show me the picture of Turkish streets. Are they dressed in Islamic way?

I think, the achievement of Atatürk hurts you. A Person coming from a Muslim Turkish family became a symbol that threatens your Islamic way of upbringing.

Freemason issue is unclear.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Show me the picture of Ottoman royal family. Are they dressed in Islamic way?

Their were no cameras during peek of Otoman empire.

Show me the picture of Turkish streets. Are they dressed in Islamic way?

I do not get your stance.

I think, the achievement of Atatürk hurts you. A Person coming from a Muslim Turkish family became a symbol that threatens your Islamic way of upbringing.

How he be a Muslim when people like you and him have no respect for Islam.

Freemason issue is unclear.

Its already a establish fact that he was a freemason.

 

[Targon]

If you ask Islamists, there is many facts about him, although they're indecieve about if he's Jewish or Christian or Atheist or freemason or illuminati or any other sh.t

You remember that I told you to think about his logic ? so what is the results ?

Btw

Sultan Mahmut 2 before his reforms

After his reforms