Ataturk's Legacy vs Caliphate and implications for Pakistan

[Armstrong]

That's where we disagree. Ottoman institutions of bureaucracy, the army, the scholars were all corrupt to the core eaten from inside thanks to the Mullahs.

There was no way anyone could have used them.

No wonder Ata Turk had to completely demolish those Khilafat institutions, burn them to the ground, and rebuild Turkey as secular society, and banned even the Arabic Alphabets let alone anything of higher order.


So my dear poster, broaden your horizon, challenge the lies fed to you in the name of Khilafah. Otherwise people will remain stuck in the wrong history.


peace

My Dear poster...don't treat me like a pup ! As someone who too has an avid interest in history I would disagree with your assertion that these institutions were core eaten because of the Mullahs - they were not ! Their corruption and nepotism wasn't anymore or anyless then that of Pakistan's present bureaucracy which means nothing that an iron fist will not solve ! Hang the heads of these institutions and the rest will fall in line, either way starting from scratch is always exponentially more taxing and difficult then starting from what you already have and even then it wasn't as if the people changed...truly just the heads did and if it could work for one ideology it could have worked for another as well.

 

[Alienoz_TR]

The quaid wad also liberal but you have to respect him, he understood our culture and the importance of our faith

And unlike sime neo liberal slime ball didnt force our faith, people or culture down

Listen to me, friend. Difficult times create difficult people. Did you do your military service. In my military service there was no Allah for me. I have not even faced any enemy, but I lost all my belief.

You are judging a person who saw WW1. He drank alcohol, yes. He abolished Sultanate, Caliphate. He made adhan voiced in Turkish. That's not what Muslims do. True.

Did he also care for his nation? for his soldiers? There you find your answer.

 

[hussain0216]

There is the quraan to tell us about peopl like attaturk

Power hasent deserted the muslim world, power comes in cycles the muslim world will indeed rise again

We need to have confidence in iurselves, our own strengths our own faith and culture

Not this neo liberal crap we have had secular scum dictators screw and sell out the muslim world and people for generations

Wr need the AKP, the muslim brotherhood and other grouops who put our culture, faith and people first

Not more neo liberal slime balls

 

[Indus Pakistan]

And you are why the millions of muslims around the world hate the secular neo liberal scum whose purpose is to attack our faith and culture

Assad, mubarak, attaturk all the same liberal slime

You are a bloody hypocrite, through and through. You sit there in UK, drowned in a sea of 'liberal slime' and secular culture. Then you have the friggin galls of moaning about Ataturk?

Truely friggin beyond belief - Now your gonna give the standard reply "I am in UK because of studies or am working here because the 'gora' need me".

Act on what you preach ... move to Saudia Arabia or some other citadel of utopian Islam .... at least you could plead sincerity to your views.

I hope this quote of what I said makes you think about your contradictory, inconsistant and hypocrite views.

"If secularism is not harmful to Pakistani's living in the secular West than why should secularism be harmful to Pakistani's living in Pakistan? In other words if it [secularism] is benign to a Muslim living in the West why should it [secularism] become toxic to Muslim living in Pakistan?[/I]

 

[AtillaHun]

hussains just a little kid , i saw from his last post , kid with no information about nothing , feeds on only TV news.

You are a bloody hypocrite, through and through. You sit there in UK, drowned in a sea of 'liberal slime' and secular cultur. Then you have the friggin galls of moaning about Ataturk?

Truely friggin beyond belief - Now your gonna give the standard reply "I am in UK because of studies or am working here because the 'gora' need me".

Act on what you preach ... move to Saudia Arabia or some other citadel of utopian Islam .... at least you could at least plead sincerity to your views.

I hope this quote of what I said makes you think about your contradictory, inconsistant and hypocrite views.

"If secularism is not harmful to Pakistani's living in the secular West than why should secularism be harmful to Pakistani's living in Pakistan? In other words if it [secularism] is benign to a Muslim living in the West why should it [secularism] become toxic to Muslim living in Pakistan?[/I]

Pin point . Im waiting for him to answer whats he doing in the UK , in a country where you can even have ... in the street and nobody has ethics.

 

[Armstrong]

"If secularism is not harmful to Pakistani's living in the secular West than why should secularism be harmful to Pakistani's living in Pakistan? In other words if it [secularism] is benign to a Muslim living in the West why should it [secularism] become toxic to Muslim living in Pakistan?[/I]

Its not a zero-sum game ! Just as socialists can live in an avidly capitalist country like the US or vice versa for China doesn't mean that their advocacy for one stance involves an automatic revocation of their love for their country ! But I do agree some of his disrespectful talk about Mr.Ataturk is completely unpalatable !

 

[Alienoz_TR]

There is the quraan to tell us about peopl like attaturk

What does Quran tell us about Ataturk?

 

[Indus Pakistan]

*
This is the logic according to these hypocrites:-

1. Secularism is toxic to a Muslim in Turkey.
2. Secularism is toxic to a Muslim in Pakistan.

However

3. Secularism is benign to a Muslim in UK.
4. Secularism is fantastic to a Muslim in France.

Do you see anything slightly contradictory here?

hussains just a little kid , i saw from his last post , kid with no information about nothing , feeds on only TV news.
Pin point . Im waiting for him to answer whats he doing in the UK , in a country where you can even have ... in the street and nobody has ethics.

These people gawk at half naked women, sniff alcohol walking past drunks, see half naked images everywhere, breath secular air, drink secular water, sh*t secular and then friggin turn around and have the temerity to moan and ****** about secularism.

Just bloody astounding.... !!!

@ Armstrong I see your point but socialism etc can't be compared to Islam, the latter is a religion, a faith or a way of life as some say.

 

[AtillaHun]

I bet hussain isnt even fasting.

 

[hussain0216]

I was born in the uk, this is where I live, my home

The secular neo liberals have indeed been almost fatal to the muslim world, something goes wrong we look around and we have assad, gaddaffi, mubarak, attaturk uncaring, unfeeling just concerned about putting muslims down

We need to change, we need leaders to defend and promotr our people, our culture and our brotherhood this is happening slowly

We cant go back to the mubaraks and attaturks

 

[AtillaHun]

Why dont you leave ''Secular , Christian '' UK? UK that killed thousands of muslims?

Ohh now its your home , you already forgot your country .

 

[KingMamba]

*
This is the logic according to these hypocrites:-

1. Secularism is toxic to a Muslim in Turkey.
2. Secularism is toxic to a Muslim in Pakistan.

However

3. Secularism is benign to a Muslim in UK.
4. Secularism is fantastic to a Muslim in France.

Do you see anything slightly contradictory here?



These people gawk at half naked women, sniff alcohol walking past drunks, see half naked images everywhere, breath secular air, drink secular water, sh*t secular and then friggin turn around and have the temerity to moan and ****** about secularism.

Just bloody astounding.... !!!

@ Armstrong I see your point but socialism etc can't be compared to Islam, the latter is a religion, a faith or a way of life as some say.

Pakistan is way to far gone for secularism to work. On paper it sounds great heck communism sounds like the best system for humanity on paper but it is a lot harder to implement. That being said is the Caliphate the answer? Nope the only thing Muslim majority countries need is good governance and accountability.

I bet hussain isnt even fasting.

That was like a low blow.

 

[Armstrong]

@ Armstrong I see your point but socialism etc can't be compared to Islam, the latter is a religion, a faith or a way of life as some say.[/I]

On the contrary my friend ! From a classification point of view, Shariah corresponds to English Civil Law, Islamic Finance to a Socialist or a Capitalist Economy and Islamic standards of propriety to the ones that most of the Western World have come up with - Secular Humanism, if you will ! So indeed whereas hypocrisy is prevalent in the society such as an Islamist will talk about Shariah or the right and wrong as per Islamic belief and still visit a brothel or go drunk at a bar somewhere in Liverpool or conversely how a Liberal Secular would talk about human rights and liberty and yet bomb the sh*t out of Iraq for the WMDs that cannot be found...heck even a bloody firecracker couldn't be found, it doesn't change the fact that we are each entitled to having a principled stance !

Furthermore neither Islam nor Muslims are monolithic in their convictions or actions and it may be quite possible for a peasant in Pakistan to be talking about the Shariah and yet not be required to be held accountable for the ideological leanings of someone in Canada who'd be benefiting from State Secularism and vice versa of course !

Lastly I think there is a passive renaissance going on in the Muslim world whereby Muslim scholars and intellectuals are themselves trying to come up with answers to some of the more fundamental questions that pertain to us; one of which may well be 'Is the concept of a separation of religion and State inline with Islam ?' and 'If not then do we have an alternative paradigm ?'. Seeing that the so-called intellectuals themselves haven't been able to come up with definitive answers to these one may be forgiven for allowing some leverage to the Muslims in the West and in our own countries for themselves trying to reconcile what they've been taught and what they see around them and in that perhaps even holding on even more steadfastly in what they believe instead of venturing forth and critically examining the established models and traditions out there. A gradual process whereby we may either end up showing to the world a working model of what we think are the alternative paradigms of Islam or we might end up picking up the most suitable working model out there and trying to superimpose it to our societies...either way the next few decades are going to be interesting to follow !

Khair its 4:30 a.m here and I have to get to the office at 9:00 a.m...so I'm off !

 

[revojam]

I had to share

 

[AtillaHun]

kardes bence onu sil , baska bisey yaz , iyi olmuyor.