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Ataturkism or Kemalism

I have read posts from a brother Turk as well as from Hon Alamgir, who obviously view Ata Turk in a different light. As a student of history, specially history of non Arab muslims; history of Turks and Ottomons is very close to my heart. I would take this opportunity of noting down what I think about Kemal Ata Turk.

Firslty the Tukish Khalifas. Initially Ottomon Turks only called themselves Sultans. From 1517 ( Selim -1) Turkish Sultans assumed the title of Khalifa or Allah's Representative on Earth. This was not the traditional Khilaafat but actually self proclaimed. This was used as an excuse to conquer other Islamic states such as the Mamlukes of Egypt. This resulted in Sultan Selim-1taking over the control of holy cities of Mecca and Medina. Mamluke rulers, despite having control over Hijaz, out of respect of the Abbasides, installed one of the Abbaside line as Khalifa in Cairo, even though real power as Sultans was always theirs.

If one scrutinizes character of the Turkish Sultans in Islamic context, their assumption of the title of Khalifa appears to be a travesty. Most of them drank heavily, had hundreds of wives and harams and made laws contrary to Islam. For example, Sulaiman the Magnificient (Qanuni) made a law that among the Royal Princes, whosoever wins the power, will kill all the rest of the princes of royal blood. This rule was later changed and unsucessful claiments were kept in golden cages. Pray tell me, is this the act of a Khalifa??

Ottomon power declined due to the reasons that all empires decline; nepotism, palace intrigues, corruption and moral turpitude; in short rot from within. By the late 19th Century she was known as 'Sickman of Europe'. There were no doubt many attempts to cure the ills such as reforms by Mehmat II ( Tanzimaat of 1839 ) but it only delayed the inevitable. Russo - Turkish wars of 1877-1879 was the beginning of the end. Young Turks movement of 1908, Balkan wars of 1912 and WW1 hurried up the end. All Ottomon Caliphate did was to provide a symbolic figure for the muslim ummah, nothing more. I respect Ali brothers immensely but IMO they were being naive when they launched the Khilaafat movement. What were they saving??

This piece of history is partly true; but wide partly...


They were fighting the English. Real culprits in the fall of the Ottomon empire were the Arabs. Wahabis waged war against the Ottomon Turks and were finally defeated in 1813 (Mohammad Ali Pasha of Egypt) and Hijaz recoverd for the Ottomon Kahlifa. Has any mullah dared to issue fatwa against Wahabis who took up arms against the Khalifa tul Muslimeen ??

Muslim Arabs again sided with the English in WW1; this resulted in the loss of Syria, Jordan, Plaestine, Iraq and Hijaz from the control of the Turkish Khalifa.

That's the thing, I repeat oftenly...

I know that MMA cringe at the name of Kemal Ata Turk.
Sorry... I could not get the meaning of MMA...

I admit that he was no angel. For example, initially Enver Pasha was one the heros of the young turks and led the Coup d'etat of 1913.

And this coup d'état caused that Ottoman Empire became a German puppet and joint to the WW1...

He was also a military genius and was responsible for the British defeat of Dardanells. He was sidelined by Kemal Ata Turk and now virtually forgotten.

Enver Pasha has no action about Dardanelles Victory. This info is completely wrong.

IMO Kemal Ata Turk, except for his banning to reading of Quran in Arabic and trying to purify the Turkish language by removing all Arabic and Persian words, was an exceptional leader.

Do you think these are negative reforms? Do you know when reform and Enlightenment Age begun in the Europe? It begun with translation of Bible from Latin into German by Martin Luther... What does it mean? Real religion only can be lived by being understood by people... Otherwise pope was selling the key of the Heaven and the church was getting richer and richer... This is the medieval mind... I like Arabic and Persian but I hate Arabic and Persian in my mothertongue, Turkish.

We need one in Pakistan to get rid of the Talibaan/ Al Qaeda menace.

All world has need, unfortunately...

No doubt I believe that Islam is for ever and for all ages. But perception of what is true Islam change over time. Wahabis were at one time called the biggest enemy of Islam and today are the leaders of Sunni Islamic world in form of Saudi Arabia.

And I suggest you to search for roots of Wahabism... You will find Britain, again...

Thanks.
 
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i think you not read care fully,it start from a hope that turks return to religion,and how kamalism try to destroy any thing which belong to faith,and for your information islam not only exist in turky,other 55 countries have majority muslim population,how you conclude that eliminating muslims in one country destroy islam

What are you talking about? What is the religion according to you, man? How can you talking about so-called " Turk's returning to religion"... Are you Allah, tevbe my Allah the Merciful, so you are giving the decission of Turks' excommunicating from Islam...

Firstly you claimed so called, Ataturk destroyed Islam(!)... How can it be? Ataturk provided the translation of Holy Kuran... So Turks could understand their religion purely from the origin source of religion, the Word of Allah... Caliph was too far away from representing Muslim world... He was another puppet of Britain, who was controlled in order to weaken Turkish Independence Movement and to make Greek army victor in Turkish motherland.

The thing most I love in my religion, Islam has no clergy ,"ruhban", as Christianity has... Only Allah can make decissions of people...
 
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europe doesnt want turkey so turkey has to return to the muslim world eventualy already we are seeing signs of turks returning to islamic belief dress etc cant wait for the old turky to return

Turkiye doesn't have to do anything. Turkish nation doesn't want the EU, too, as well as they don't want to go back to the sheriah...

We have lived simular positions in the past; in each time, supporters of going back experienced utter defeats... It will be so, again ;).
 
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Women are'nt allowed to cover their heads in school... what would you say about that? Did'nt that come from Ataturk? Did'nt Ataturk try to destroy islam in turkey for the soverneighty and reprisal of the nation of turkiye?

What i think is that if someone wants to follow islam it should be okay and it shuld be okay if someone doesn't want to follow it! Thats a democratic country... where people aren't told how to live their lives! What i don't understand is why people are told not to be religious... religion is a personal matter true! If someone does'nt want to believe its his choice and if someone does want to it is also his choice!

Yes Ataturk did bring honour to the country and pride to the people but was it neccessary to get rid of Islam for that?
 
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What are you talking about? What is the religion according to you, man? How can you talking about so-called " Turk's returning to religion"... Are you Allah, tevbe my Allah the Merciful, so you are giving the decission of Turks' excommunicating from Islam...
what a sensless rispond
Firstly you claimed so called, Ataturk destroyed Islam(!)... How can it be? Ataturk provided the translation of Holy Kuran... So Turks could understand their religion purely from the origin source of religion, the Word of Allah
yes for this purpose he order to close thousend of mosques,religios schools,and banned islamic costoms...
Caliph was too far away from representing Muslim world... He was another puppet of Britain, who was controlled in order to weaken Turkish Independence Movement and to make Greek army victor in Turkish motherland.
Source: Ataturk, The Rebirth of a Nation, Lord Kinross, 1965
page 141-142:


In the large room on the first floor of his house in Shishli the three friends talked and plotted to find a way out for their country. They formed in effect a secret revolutionary committee, whose aim was to force the resignation of the Government, to form a new one, if necessary to dethrone the Sultan. But one at least of their conferedates found Kemal too extreme. He feared the risk involved and the committee was disbanded. Maybe, after all, revolution was not the answer, for any attempt at it would immediately be suppressed by the Allies.

Perhaps, it occurred to Kemal, something could be achieved through the Allies themselves. With his compelling presence and his immaculate uniform, emblazoned with medals and with the insignia of an ADC to the Sultan, he was already a conspicuous figure in the Pera Palace Hotel, its mock-Oriental marble halls now teeming with officers in the occupying forces and in the Inter-Allied High Commission. He attracted their curiosity as soon as it became known that he was the hero of the Dardanelles. At first he chose to keep his distance.

But now he began to see that some contact with the Allies might serve his designs. They were, after all, in virtual control of the country. The French had landed in Alexandretta and were pressing forward into Cilicia. The Italians were about to land at Adalia, thence likewise to penetrate inland. The British had control officers scattered over Turkey from Thrace to the Caucasus, supervising demobilization and disarmament. The Sultan was in power, and unlikely to give Kemal a post of any consequence in the dwindling Turkish army. For what he sought -and this was just such a national resurgence as Curzon feared- any position of authority was better than none. Might he not obtain some post from the Allies themselves - preferably the British, who had no ultimate territorial designs on the country? Power obtained under their auspices, now that they had come, might well be turned into other and more patriotic channels once they had gone.

Deciding to sound them out indirectly, he chose as intermediary a British correspondent of repute, G. Ward Price, of the 'Daily Mail'. Through the manager of the Pera Palace Hotel, he sent the correspondent an invitation to take coffee with him. After consulting the responsible colonel in the Intelligence Branch of the General Staff, Mr Ward Price accepted. He found Kemal not in uniform but in a frock-coat and fez. He struck him as handsome and virile, restrained in gestures, quiet and deliberate in voice. He was accompanied by his friend Refet.

Kemal confessed to him that his country had joined the wrong side in the war. The Turks should never have quarrelled with the British. They had done so as a result of Enver's pressure. They had lost - and now they must pay heavily. Anatolia was to be divided. Kemal was anxious that the French should be kept out of the country. A British administration would be less unpopular.

"If the British," he said, "are going to assume the responsibility for Anatolia, they will need the co-operation of experienced Turkish governors to work under them. What I want to know is the proper quarter to which I can offer my services in that capacity."

Ward Price gave the staff colonel an account of the interview. He dismissed it as unimportant, remarking, "There will be a lot of these Turkish generals looking for jobs before long."





The thing most I love in my religion, Islam has no clergy ,"ruhban", as Christianity has... Only Allah can make decissions of people...
can kamalism allow these words
 
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Women are'nt allowed to cover their heads in school... what would you say about that? Did'nt that come from Ataturk? Did'nt Ataturk try to destroy islam in turkey for the soverneighty and reprisal of the nation of turkiye?

No... This came from former Islamist prime minister Erbakan's work. He used headscarf for his political aims... He want to use headscarf wrongfully for his own end... He was Islamist, but we were able to pray everywhere, we had nothing wrong with headscarf BEFORE him. He symbolized the headscarf as the flag of struggling against to modern Turkiye...

I request that, if you don't live in Turkiye; please don't talk so much about internal affairs of Turkiye... This will be a politeness of only a human...

What i think is that if someone wants to follow islam it should be okay and it shuld be okay if someone doesn't want to follow it! Thats a democratic country... where people aren't told how to live their lives! What i don't understand is why people are told not to be religious... religion is a personal matter true! If someone does'nt want to believe its his choice and if someone does want to it is also his choice!

You are right; that's what going on Turkiye is... But "turban" kind of headscarf symbolised as a symbol of an illegal political party. And that party has no well intention to establish freedom of religion... Its aim wasmaking "turban" an obligation. Other kinds of headscarf is totally free, now... You are informed wrongly, I think.

Yes Ataturk did bring honour to the country and pride to the people but was it neccessary to get rid of Islam for that?

I am repeating annoyedly::::: Ataturk DID NOT anything bad for ISLAM... One of his well-known quote is that: "Milletimiz din gibi kuvvetli bir fazilete sahiptir. Bu fazileti hiçbir kuvvet, milletimizin kalp ve vicdanından çekip alamamıştır ve alamaz."

In english he says; "Our nation has a powerful virtue since she has religion. Any force couldn't and can't remove this virtue from our nation's heart and conscience...".
 
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