Arunachal in China? That is not the reality, says PM Manmohan Singh

[Water Car Engineer]

So back to your post, what is your point by raising those indo-greek paragraph???

What is your problem with Yuan and Qing's control over Tibet???

Both Mongolian and Manchurian are all part of Chinese already and it seems that you also understand your indo-greek to India analogy.

The reason China claims A.P. is because of the Qing empire who are foreigner. British India is also foreign people coming into India and is also part of Indian history, should India claim Sri Lanka because of it? Respect modern borders thats all.

You said Yuan empire and Manchu empire are Chinese history, no doubt, but you know they are consider foreigners back then thats when the Indo-Greek Kingdoms analogy came in.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

comparing Sri Lanka with Tibet, that is absurd yaar

 

[Water Car Engineer]

comparing Sri Lanka with Tibet, that is absurd yaar

Its really not. Its almost like India invading Sri Lanka and taking it over.

But like I said, it doesn't matter in the present. And respect modern borders.

 

[ephone]

The reason China claims A.P. is because of the Qing empire who are foreigner. British India is also foreign people coming into India and is also part of Indian history, should India claim Sri Lanka because of it? Respect modern borders thats all.

You said Yuan empire and Manchu empire are Chinese history, no doubt, but you know they are consider foreigners back then thats when the Indo-Greek Kingdoms analogy came in.

Initially maybe, but soon they were considered Chinese since they have fully adopted Chinese system and even say they are the next emperor granted by heaven. They understand by fully integrated into Chinese system, they would have less rebellion and more support the local landlord who were also very powerful.

So Yuan and Qing are part of Chinese history, not foreign history. You can consult any Chinese history books and none will view them as foreign history at all. Indeed as I have said both are part of Chinese.

Qing's control over Tibet were through its link with Mogolian link. Initially, Qing's emperors thought they were not strong enough so that they have many marriage links with Mongolian leaders. Qing's Manchurian initially always say Manchurian and Mongolian are one family. By solidifying Mongolian support, at the same time, fully adopted Han Chinese system, Qing then can control China more successfully. Also through this link, Qing also control Tibet as well. So Qing is not foreigner at all. Even less foreigner to Tibet through its Mongolian link.

Of course, when Qing overturn the Ming finally, Qing did not value Mongolian side equally. Qing may grant many duke positions to those Mongolian leaders but there is only one emperor.

As long as your India and Sri Lanka history, I have no idea how far you have to go back to its India control. As for China, Qing was overturned in 1911, exactly 100 years ago. Our control over Tibet is very continuous even we have several central government changes after Qing: Beiyang Republic, KMT republic of china and the current PRC.

Even when we were invaded by all foreign powers during the Beiyang Republic in 1914, a major foreign power, Britain trying so hard to force our representative Ivan Chen to sign an illegal accord cooked up by then Dalai Lama and Britain, Ivan Chen (China) has strongly refused to recognize it. Even today, Britain has discarded finally its imperialistic policy in the past.

Simla Accord - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Water Car Engineer]

Initially maybe, but soon they were considered Chinese since they have fully adopted Chinese system and even say they are the next emperor granted by heaven. They understand by fully integrated into Chinese system, they would have less rebellion and more support the local landlord who were also very powerful.

So Yuan and Qing are part of Chinese history, not foreign history. You can consult any Chinese history books and none will view them as foreign history at all. Indeed as I have said both are part of Chinese.

This is where the Indo-Greek even Kushan analogy comes from.. Yes, they have converted to Buddhism, Shivism, etc and mixed with the Indian culture. They can wear Hindu marks on their forehead, wear Indian clothings, etc. Fight the Indian way, eat the Indian way, etc, but doesnt make them any less of a foreigner.

Did the Machus mix with the Hans? I heard in the beginning the Machurian emperors are a mix of Mongols and Manchu hybrid and invaded China that way..

 

[Abhishek_]

^thanks for showing the indian side of the history. You have raised valid concerns, but my dear friend, we still need to find a middle ground so that both India and china can settle this prickly issue.

 

[ephone]

This is where the Indo-Greek even Kushan analogy comes from.. Yes, they have converted to Buddhism, Shivism, etc and mixed with the Indian culture. They can wear Hindu marks on their head, wear Indian clothings, etc. Fight the Indian way, eat the Indian way, etc, but doesnt make them any less of a foreigner.

Did the Machus mix with the Hans? I heard in the beginning the Machurian emperors are a mix of Mongols and Manchu hybrid..

You see, that is the part you lack history about China.

Manchu has been part of minority tribe in northeastern China. During late Song Dynasty, they became very strong and overturn the Northern Song Dynasty. They set up themselves as Jin Dynasty (which is also part of Chinese history). The remaining Song officials escaped to the south China establishing Southern Song Dynasty.

Jin wanted to invaded Southern Song Dynasty while Southern Song Dynasty wanted to reclaim the Northern Song Dynasty. Each wanted to be the heaven-granted son of god, or ruler of China. While none has beaten the other.

Then Mongolian became stronger and there came Genghis Kan. Mongolian and Southern Song worked together to overturned Jin. and Later Mongolian's Yuan overturned Southern Song to reunite the whole China.

Manchu fell into pieces after Jin was overturned but there came another great leader for them: Nurhachi, centuries later. He and his sons took advantage of later Ming dynasty's peasant uprising and overturn Ming. So Manchu in China really established two dynasties even though the two are several hundred years apart.

Today there is no much difference between Manchu and Han, even though you can get better opportunities when you claim you are from minority, e.g. education, jobs and etc.

The marriage between Han and non-Han Chinese are very common. For someone who are complete Han Chinese looking, he may be half minority from either parent side. However, we view all of them Chinese and never think them foreigners.

The power of Chinese culture is that we can assimilate any outside culture or people into china and finally they become fully Chinese. We did not use force to do that all.

They may still remain their original religions, e.g. like Muslims, or totally assimilated, e.g. there were a lot of Turkish people inside China thousand of years ago, before that, even the Huns. A lot of them went west, e.g. Attila the Hun, or Turkey... Those who choose to stay were assimilated into Chinese culture and are now part of Chinese.

So in Chinese blood, it definitely consists of different racial background. Even the Tang Dynasty, the founder Li Yuan was also thought to be part of Turkish. However, he adopted Chinese name, took Chinese tradition, took Chinese position to become army soldiers, then generals and later took his chance to became emperor and found the strongest empire then. So he is fully considered as Chinese. So he may be part of Turkish descendant, who care? We Chinese always view him Chinese and I think he never doubted he is Chinese either. He also called him heaven-granted son of god, which was used by every Chinese emperor no matter which dynasty it is.

So Chinese culture is a multi-racial culture even though later no matter which racial background they may come from, they all tried to call themselves Han Chinese since they are the majority. But in reality, the Han Chinese is very much diverse.

That is why we have always viewed Jin, Yuan as well as Qing part of Chinese history. In reality, each successor did the same to take over and adapt.

No matter how different initially they may be, if they choose to stay, they all become Chinese and was accepted as Chinese as well, indeed nobody forced them either. Those who choose not to normally have gone somewhere already, like some of the Turkish as well as some of the Hun.

 

[Hindustani]

I honestly just think it should all just stay status quo.. I think I've mentioned this in another thread .. Deja vu

Anyways Kashmir, Aksai Chin, Arunachal Pradesh.. I feel if we create all the "dotted" lines on the map a solid color, each country would have one less thing to worry about. I mean yeah we lost land, but at least it's over with. Get on with our lives. No more land shall be disputed. pakistan takes Gilgit and Azad Kashmir, India takes Arunachal Pradesh and J&K, and China takes Aksai Chin as well as the Shaksham Valley.

 

[Water Car Engineer]

I know about the Jins and early Manchus. Look, back then northern Tribals like the Mongols and Manchus or other Tungusics to Hans are just as different as China and Japan today. I know in todays times these ethnic groups are in the larger Chinese blob. But these empires are like the Greek rule of Egypt or Turkic dynasties of Iran. They were occupying the land, just because they adopted to culture of the region makes them any less foreigners? Even the children of these ethnic groups are still there to this day and call themselves Iranians, Egyptians, Indians, etc, etc, etc. They are far to out numbered and get absorbed.. Which will happen with the Machurians and Mongols in China.

Even Hazaras call themselves "Afghani", even though their ancestors ruled Afghanistan.

, they all tried to call themselves Han Chinese

Your telling me the Manchu rulers tryed to call themselves Han Chinese?

Didnt they have a hierarchy with the Manchus being the highest, then "colored eyes", then Mongols, then Northern Hans, THEN Southern Hans?

 

[huzihaidao12]

lol , increasingly belligerent China has resolved almost all the country's borders, while the "bad war" India almost have all the territory issues with all neighboring countries, of course, India is a bad war, you see.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

There are less than 70 people in the ENTIRE world, who speak the Manchu language. They have been assimilated into the Chinese nation.

 

[Water Car Engineer]

There are less than 70 people in the ENTIRE world, who speak the Manchu language. They have been assimilated into the Chinese nation.

I have said this many times. They will get absorbed and join the larger Chinese blob.. They are far to outnumbered.

 

[ephone]

I know about the Jins and early Manchus. Look, back then northern Tribals like the Mongols and Manchus or other Tungusics to Hans are just as different as China and Japan today. I know in todays times these ethnic groups are in the larger Chinese blob. But these empires are like the Greek rule of Egypt or Turkic dynasties of Iran. They were occupying the land, just because they adopted to culture of the region makes them any less foreigners? Even the children of these ethnic groups are still there to this day and call themselves Iranians, Egyptians, Indians, etc, etc, etc. They are far to out numbered and get absorbed.. Which will happen with the Machurians and Mongols in China.

Even Hazaras call themselves "Afghani", even though their ancestors ruled Afghanistan.



Your telling me the Manchu rulers tryed to call themselves Han Chinese?

Didnt they have a hierarchy with the Manchus being the highest, then "colored eyes", then Mongols, then Northern Hans, THEN Southern Hans?

I never said Manchu rulers tried to call them Han Chinese. I only say they adopted all Chinese tradition and later were called Chinese.

I use Han Chinese to refers to the earlier days of Han Chinese, e.g. Let's say Tang Dynasty, Many Turkish type of "foreigners" then took upon Han Chinese last name, e.g. Li, Zhang, Liu, Ma and etc and after hundreds of years, even though they came from the minority tribes there then, however, it is indistinguishable now and they all called them Han Chinese.

For Manchu, they are already pretty much like Han Chinese. So after some time, who knows they may call themselves Han Chinese in the future. It is very possible.

You see, all of the long posts. The difference between US is that I do not view them as foreigners but Chinese.

Well as you have said, you view those indo-greek, as foreigner even though they have adopted your indian's.

 

[ephone]

BTW, a lot of Japanese has it Chinese Root. For Korean as well. There are many cases that Korean presidents, premiers, ministers, Japan's premier ministers, ministers, local officials and famous businessmen come to China to look for their ancestor's root since their ancestors went to Korea or Japan for different reasons: e.g. avoiding wars, business, marriage and etc.

The famous one is Xu Fu, who was sent by the first Emperor Qin Shihuang to look for elixir, but end up in Japan. He settled there and did not dare to go back afterward.

In addition, no matter where Chinese has gone, they all call themselves Chinese no matter which country they have registered under, no matter it is US, UK, Singapore, Malaysia, China and etc.

BTW, what you have said is classification system set up by Yuan's Mongolian. Their integration initially was not successful since that is like a racial classification. That is why it took quite short time Yuan was overturned. Qing did not use that system at all and actually use a lot of Han Chinese as officials. That helps them dramatically to overcome Ming as well as so many local rebellions.

 

[Water Car Engineer]

^^^

Lets just move on then. Btw many foreign empire have adopted local cultures, religions, languages, China isn't the only example.

But one last thing... Put it like this, if Japanese empire have ruled China for 300 years(like the Manchus) and the Japanese are numbering only 3 million 300 years later and are being absorbed into the large Chinese blob(like the Manchurians today) and the Hans have risen to power and dominance would you consider that empire Chinese? Its the same thing with Yuan and Qing empire.