Army High commands use to meet Shahbaz Shairf during PTI's government: Sheikh Rasheed

[Ghazwa-e-Hind]

 

[Winchester]

public cannot do jack about Army, as Army will continue to function still.

That is correct.

Army has become a anaconda constricting the poor helpless little mammal called the Pakistani Awam. And as with the British East India Company, the poor people of this region don't have it within them to do anything against them or their allied local lords.

Army should stay out of politics and other meddling that its not supposed to do, right ?

Its the weakness of the civilian government structure and their ineptness to handle many issues which they should have handled, giving opportunity to Army again and again to step in, either to take control or be called in, which has given rise to the circumstances where Pakistan stands today. It can be seen from a multitude of factors like a simple one, fauj gives danda and gets things done. Weak civilian leadership is another, has been, will be. Failure of Police system is another, Politicians call in Army.

So, example of Putin is wrong, he is not a weak politician neither a weak leader.
Elements of Military were used to topple Erdogan, he couldn't be removed.

Pakistan is about opportunists. Army has its own setup. Bajwa is not Doenitz nor Eisenhower. IK is not Erdogan or Putin. As I see it, at any given point, a COAS will always be more powerful than a PM or President of Pakistan. If the PM or bureaucracy indulges COAS in politics or meddles with affairs of Army, repercussions will occur. In a perfect world, it shouldn't happen like that but in a volatile/uncompromising/untrustworthy situation, it will happen.

IK has lost coz of many reasons. Lets talk hypothetically since there are many points for which there is news without proof. IK knew COAS is stronger than him so taking him head-on will be disastrous. IK could have taken on the COAS in his next term. Or there was no need to take on the COAS or even create a rift. IK didn't play smartly, he played through ego and misconceptions as well as stubbornness to budge from a point without considering his position. Realistically, even if public gathered behind IK, public cannot do jack about Army, as Army will continue to function still. More public will join as officers and soldiers. There have been threads on PDF against Army and then threads about joining Army also. Coming back to IK, even if he could have given in to a few mandates, he could have made a U turn in his next term as by that time he could have started showing his authority. Army brought IK in power. Army knew if they back off, he wont stay in power. IK thought it wont happen. so who fell short ? obviously IK. What is diplomacy ? PM-ship is diplomacy. IK should have known better. Maybe after Jinnah, he would have become someone closer to Jinnah in leading Pakistan but to think he could make it happen in one term is being naïve and stupid considering the political situation of Pakistan.

Now you as public can blame Bajwa. Continue blaming, but can public remove a COAS ? not easy . Can public remove a PM ? its possible. Musharraf got removed after taking off uniform.

Ik should have done this or that. But what about Bajwa, and his motivations.

Lets find out after November. The Mian Mithu stuff and all that.The knives would be out and using your analogy about tossing IK out as a friendly gesture towards the Americans, the institution would need a scapegoat to present to the public.

If Bajwa has no issues, going after retired officers and their families, then he should know he would be fair game when he is on the other end of the stick without his uniform.

 

[Signalian]

That is correct.

Army has become a anaconda constricting the poor helpless little mammal called the Pakistani Awam. And as with the British East India Company, the poor people of this region don't have it within them to do anything against them or their allied local lords.

Army is not doing anything to the public, how many officers or soldiers do you interact with on daily basis. The "poor helpless" Pakistani awam is following a corrupt system because it suits them. This poor helpless awam will join police, wapda, ptcl and other government departments to make money through the same corrupt system through which their forefathers have been eating. This also consists of die hard fans of N, PPP and PTI who will continue to serve the interests of their respective political parties where it matters to them. They will also join Army, PAF and Navy.

Poor awam was not awarded with brains at birth unlike other humans, right ? The poor awam was born defected without brains. They dont have tongues to speak up neither hands to write. As an example, the law clan, the black coats weakened Musharraf using everything at their disposal. How did that happen, so strange.

You really think that people 4-5 people on top are sitting and eating the country, thats it? Rest of the awam is bhooki nungi unfortunately and dont have a choice but to bow down to these 4-5 people. What an irony !

Are shopkeepers not part of poor helpless awam ? they don't abide to prices which have been listed by the Government. Military isnt making those prices. The average salesman will eat your budget up as soon as you enter his shop, probably he is from Mars not Pakistan. Who gives bribe to judge's peon to get a favorable outcome of the case, people from Neptune ? Who pays the clerks to get their files moving , people from Uranus? Who pays 3 times the cost to get a passport made or jump the queue, people from Mercury ? These are just standard examples. I cannot list the whole system of corruption. But you think Army is to blame, well you can think what you want and blame Army for the rest of your life but you will never have the guts to come out on the road or make an iota of difference in the outcome of Country's leadership issues, coz you will sit on your couch and keep replying my posts. You are our average Pakistani who knows best how to play a blame game.

And let me tell you something straight up. This has become about IK Vs Bajwa as it seems, but this is actually about IK Vs Army, coz someday Bajwa will go but IK isnt going anywhere. This should have been about Political parties Vs Army, but to everyone including me, PPP, N and other parties are another name of corruption. The COAS will change someday but will IK become politically mature someday ? I doubt it.

Moreover, Army brought in PTI because even Army realized that others are corrupt. Why don't you give attention to the point that Bajwa has to put up with N league again in power where as few years ago, him and others wanted PTI to come and stay in power. Yeah I know, say it that N league is giving DHA plots to Bajwa lol. Honestly, Bajwa can get the DHA plots of whole Pakistan without anybody's assistance.

The reason I said public can't do jack about Army is a reason you already know but as i expected you brought your meaning to it coz my statement struck you deeply somewhere. Every institution in Pakistan has been dented and been made unfunctional. Army has been dented at times but even then its merits have not lowered. Now quote me on this statement of merit too. Should i explain it or wait for you to quote me according to the negative perception of Army that you have and then I will tell what I mean. Either way I will have to explain it so I will wait. Try to twist it as much as you possibly can though. Army has a certain way of doing things, they can deviate but again get back on track. Why don't you do an analysis of Army as an organization. You blame it, put some effort to blame it more analytically, you might find more loopholes and mess ups than you can imagine, give it a go. I will clear those out, dont worry, it would just be an interesting read for everyone, thats all.

Ik should have done this or that. But what about Bajwa, and his motivations.

Lets find out after November. The Mian Mithu stuff and all that.The knives would be out and using your analogy about tossing IK out as a friendly gesture towards the Americans, the institution would need a scapegoat to present to the public.

If Bajwa has no issues, going after retired officers and their families, then he should know he would be fair game when he is on the other end of the stick without his uniform.

IK is part of awam too, right, poor helpless IK even when in power, thats all I can say. Rest I have speculated already, why repeat.

 

[Winchester]

Army is not doing anything to the public, how many officers or soldiers do you interact with on daily basis. The "poor helpless" Pakistani awam is following a corrupt system because it suits them. This poor helpless awam will join police, wapda, ptcl and other government departments to make money through the same corrupt system through which their forefathers have been eating. This also consists of die hard fans of N, PPP and PTI who will continue to serve the interests of their respective political parties where it matters to them. They will also join Army, PAF and Navy.

Poor awam was not awarded with brains at birth unlike other humans, right ? The poor awam was born defected without brains. They dont have tongues to speak up neither hands to write. As an example, the law clan, the black coats weakened Musharraf using everything at their disposal. How did that happen, so strange.

You really think that people 4-5 people on top are sitting and eating the country, thats it? Rest of the awam is bhooki nungi unfortunately and dont have a choice but to bow down to these 4-5 people. What an irony !

Are shopkeepers not part of poor helpless awam ? they don't abide to prices which have been listed by the Government. Military isnt making those prices. The average salesman will eat your budget up as soon as you enter his shop, probably he is from Mars not Pakistan. Who gives bribe to judge's peon to get a favorable outcome of the case, people from Neptune ? Who pays the clerks to get their files moving , people from Uranus? Who pays 3 times the cost to get a passport made or jump the queue, people from Mercury ? These are just standard examples. I cannot list the whole system of corruption. But you think Army is to blame, well you can think what you want and blame Army for the rest of your life but you will never have the guts to come out on the road or make an iota of difference in the outcome of Country's leadership issues, coz you will sit on your couch and keep replying my posts. You are our average Pakistani who knows best how to play a blame game.

And let me tell you something straight up. This has become about IK Vs Bajwa as it seems, but this is actually about IK Vs Army, coz someday Bajwa will go but IK isnt going anywhere. This should have been about Political parties Vs Army, but to everyone including me, PPP, N and other parties are another name of corruption. The COAS will change someday but will IK become politically mature someday ? I doubt it.

Moreover, Army brought in PTI because even Army realized that others are corrupt. Why don't you give attention to the point that Bajwa has to put up with N league again in power where as few years ago, him and others wanted PTI to come and stay in power. Yeah I know, say it that N league is giving DHA plots to Bajwa lol. Honestly, Bajwa can get the DHA plots of whole Pakistan without anybody's assistance.

The reason I said public can't do jack about Army is a reason you already know but as i expected you brought your meaning to it coz my statement struck you deeply somewhere. Every institution in Pakistan has been dented and been made unfunctional. Army has been dented at times but even then its merits have not lowered. Now quote me on this statement of merit too. Should i explain it or wait for you to quote me according to the negative perception of Army that you have and then I will tell what I mean. Either way I will have to explain it so I will wait. Try to twist it as much as you possibly can though. Army has a certain way of doing things, they can deviate but again get back on track. Why don't you do an analysis of Army as an organization. You blame it, put some effort to blame it more analytically, you might find more loopholes and mess ups than you can imagine, give it a go. I will clear those out, dont worry, it would just be an interesting read for everyone, thats all.


IK is part of awam too, right, poor helpless IK even when in power, thats all I can say. Rest I have speculated already, why repeat.

We have a basic difference on our understanding of the Army and its role in Pakistan. In my thinking, as an institution it is the biggest impedement towards a more progressive country. It is also the greatest roadblock against Pakistan turning into something like Somalia. So we are in a no-mans land.

There are no misunderstandings for you to clear. My family has been in the Army for three generations. I have had dealings with people in real estate who are ex-Army and I know the material of the people inside the organisation. Some infact many are brilliant soldiers, professional in every way but over the last few years since Musharraf, there has been a slow creeping of corruption in the higher command. The rot is complete now.

Whereas 15 years ago, one bad apple could be pointed out but now as in all facets of Pakistani society, it is the honest soldier among the senior ranks who stands as the odd one out.

It isn't between IK and the Army. It is indeed between IK and Bajwa. Give IK someone like Kakar or Asif Nawaz; someone who minds his own business and then we will see how the equation plays out.

You have been incredibly oblivious towards the motivating factors behind Bajwa's actions. Those actions are motivated by personal self preservation and not some institutional safeguard. Let November come, and we will see. The lid is kept now through khuli badmashi but every badmash has a shelf life.

As an example, the law clan, the black coats weakened Musharraf using everything at their disposal.

I would refer you to read Directorate S by Steven Coll.

Especially what that fox Kayani was doing to get the chair and remove Musharraf.

The Chief of the Army Staff is too powerful a position. The games played to get there and the games played to remain there have had enormous reprecussions for the stability of the country.

 

[General Dong]

@Signalian you aren't the only person on this board who has family in the army. I have immediate family members who have served, my grandfather lost his life serving.


We have a right to question them just as we question any politician regardless of their party. So stop defending army has if it has done nothing wrong.

 

[Norwegian]

The Chief of the Army Staff is too powerful a position.

Who made it that way? Certainly not the constitution of Pakistan

 

[White privilege]

.. PA went from conducting cross border raids into India proper, post - APS to take out 5 responsible individuals, to what we have at helm now.

At some point in time, someone will disclose the exact role of current dispensation in trying to water down the response to Feb 26, in its exact mannerism. Or how the Brahmos strike was quietly brushed under the carpet.

Operation inside mainland India?? How could that have gone down the Indian throats quietly??

Also, how much more powerful should Swift Retort strike had been in your opinion?? ....And how could Pakistan have militarily responded to and admitted accidental Brahmos launch??

 

[White privilege]

Operation inside mainland India?? How could that have gone down the Indian throats quietly??

Also, how much more powerful should Swift Retort strike had been in your opinion?? ....And how could Pakistan have militarily responded to and admitted accidental Brahmos launch??

@PanzerKiel would you like to say anything about the claim??

 

[PanzerKiel]

@PanzerKiel would you like to say anything about the claim??

Lots, but won't. Just want to say that it did not happen only once. Not that it has ended.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Lol. Deep state lost in 1971. It could not rig elections in 1970, and the party that won refused to surrender to deep state's demands, hence West Pakistan - East Pakistan split

1971 was direct result of army meddling in politics. I now consider Bhutto secondary to what happened. In fact every single cockup and the mess that is Pakistani today is direct result of GHQ. They could not win a single war but instead proceeded to decalre war against the Pakistani people like some out of control thugs.

• they caused 1971
• they murdered Bhutto
• Zia laid the seeds of religious fanaticism which would make Pakistan the traget of global war on terror
• making Pakistan by word for terrorism
• created MQM leading to decades of ethnic war and Karachi being turned into huge slum Mogadishu
• Kargil debacle but failed to prevent India mulching Siachin- presumably they were too busy building housing plots then guarding Siachin.
• sold Afghanistan for paltry billion dollars which led to that country becoming a cesspit of hatred toward Pakistan
• turned our FATA into gun alley and bombing zone
• sold Pakistani for dollars to USA
• etc

Like they say - Pakistan does not have a army. The army GHQ has a country.

 

[TsAr]

Lots, but won't. Just want to say that it did not happen only once. Not that it has ended.

and I don't see this trend stopping as well

 

[ghazi52]

.,.,.