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you have to START somewhere

But where will it END. We are not equipped to handle the ARJUNs. Most of the tanks 15 years down the line will need parts replacement, engine replacement which the IA will not be able to afford. We can buy the tank. But we can't maintain it. We can start with the ARJUNs. But half the tank fleet will END up in the scrap yard cause of bad maintainance.

We will need to look before we leap.
 
DRDO will be designing newer variants for the ARJUN. Each newer variant will be better than the existing one. DRDO will receive funding. just because we dont induct it doesn't mean the ARJUN is scrapped.

We understand what you are trying to say?? We support it too. It will obviously be good if the ARJUNs are inducted. All we are suggesting is that a new class of tanks is still too early for us to handle. We will need a major defense hike to actually be able to induct the ARJUNs successfully.
Still you are not getting the word called START. It has to START. Read the link I provided some posts before CAREFULLY.
 
worth reading, especially for vish and p2prada :) :
Central Chronicle--Column

Arjun Main Battle Tank

India, which is the second largest importer of defence hardware in the world, has made little headway in the indigenous design and development of military systems required by the three wings of the Services. This is mainly due to lack of synergy between the user, on the one hand, and the developer on the other. Indeed, analysts keeping a close watch on the defence scenario have expressed surprise as to why India, which has already made spectacular advances in space exploration as exemplified by the recent launch of Chandrayaan-1, has failed to repeat this success story in defence research, development and production.

The unsavoury spat between the Army and the state-owned Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) on the performance of the Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT), designed by the Combat Vehicle Research and Development Establishment (CVRDE) and produced by the Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) at Avadi, near Chennai could have serious repercussions. It could well mean that the Army would continue to depend on the import of Russian built T-90 tank, whose technology is by no means contemporary and whose performance is no way better than that of Arjun.

Citing delays in delivery and deficiencies in performance during field trials, the Army has refused to buy more than 124 Arjun MBTs. "Army is now looking 20 years ahead and wants a futuristic MBT. Arjun, at this stage would only mean India lagging behind in the technological race in the armoured fighting vehicle. Arjun is a contemporary tank and may be used in the next decade or so but not for technologically advanced next generation warfare, some two decades hence", the Army's Director General (Mechanized Infantry), Lt Gen Dalip Bharadwaj has observed. However, he was unclear as to what kind of futuristic tank the Army was looking for and how it would go about acquiring it.

In fact, Yossi Ben-Hanan credited with designing Israel's highly-successful Merkava tank pointed out during his visit to India that tank design is evolutionary, in that each design builds upon the previous ones. "A decision taken today to build an Indian MBT is only 15 years hence," he explained. Clearly, the Indian army has not followed this well proven path if its fascination for the Russian built T-90 tank is any indication.

Like many other Indo-Russian defence deals, the 2001 contract for the supply of 310 T-90 tanks had its fair share of controversy. To begin with, Moscow has flagrantly violated the agreement by not transferring the technology and components to build 1000 T-90 tanks at HVP. Even seven years after the deal, not a single T-90 had rolled out of HVF. Evidently, Russia had failed to provide India with critical technologies and vital components for the production of the tank on home ground.

On top of this, the fire control system of T-90 had failed to perform as per specifications during field trials in the sandy stretches of Western India. What was the most galling part of the whole exercise was that the air conditioning system supplied by Russia could not prevent the fainting of the tank driver! India has now floated a global tender for a suitable air conditioner for T-90.

Far from taking Russia to task for failing to honour the commitment, the Army has ordered an additional 330 T-90s. Interestingly, Indian defence analysts see this as the Indian deal saving Russia's largest tank manufacturer Ural Vagan Zavod from bankruptcy. For, there are hardly any takers for the T-90s. The Army hopes to field a force of over 21 regiments of T-90 tanks and 40 regiments of modified T-72s.

Moreover, thanks to India's poor expertise in designing armoured vehicles, it took over three decades to develop Arjun, which on expected lines was deficient in technology and had slippages in performance. But after each field trial, the shortcomings were rectified. CVRDE researchers say that Arjun is the most advanced tank in its class and asserts that it "can handle all present and future threats."

Last year, CVRDE had supplied 14 Arjun tanks to the Indian army for trials but all were returned with a list of defects. DRDO sources claimed that each individual defect and deficiency pointed out to by the army was set right. The refusal, according to a former member of the Indian Ordnance Factories Board R Sundaram basically means that the Army was not impressed with Arjun even at this stage although on all parameters, such as horse power, speed, suspension, mobility, rifled barrel and communications set was way ahead of Russian built tanks.

The Army has also rejected DRDO's proposal for a futuristic main battle tank Arjun-2 with advanced technology features, including upgraded engines, digital fire control system and a battle field management system. The Parliament's Standing Committee attached to the Defence Ministry in its 14th report had stated that Arjun-2 production will be taken up after the completion of the order for 124 Arjun MBT. The report had also observed, "MBT Arjun is a 60-tonne class battle tank with a state-of-the-art product specifically configured to meet the requirements of the Indian army".

CVRDE claims that the firing accuracy of Arjun is far superior to the Russian-made tanks. It has second generation thermal imager and can engage targets at a distance of 2,500-metres. Its 1,400 hp engine makes for smooth mobility and has the capacity to fire Laser Homing Anti Tank Missile. Further, the tank features a gas-based suspension, unique "Kanchan" composite armour capable of withstanding hits from tanks and kinetic energy penetrators, which can shatter enemy tanks. However, for the CVRDE to break even, a minimum order of 500 is a vital requirement. This is so as it has made a massive investment on the infrastructure meant for designing the Arjun.

The DRDO is of the firm opinion that the Army's complaint of Arjun failing crucial trials does not reflect the ground reality. According to it, the failure occurred during extended trials. "Normally, a tank is supposed to operate for 3,000-kms before it goes for overhaul. The Army forced Arjun to do another 2,000-km and the reported failure happened after the tank went on for over 4000-kms trial. Nothing will progress if the Army keeps shifting its goal posts. Why don't they do a comparative trial between Arjun-T-90 against a laid down set of parameters", is the DRDO's argument.

All said and done, Arjun is not a 100 per cent Indian product. Over half of the components in the first batch of 124 tanks are imported. However, DRDO points out that imported content in the tank will eventually be reduced in a phased manner. The goal is to reduce the imported component to less than 30 per cent after 500 tanks are produced.

In this context, defence analysts say "the time, effort and money spent on developing indigenous fighting equipment, including Arjun should not be squandered away in pursuit of pipe dreams on technology or mindless fascination for foreign equipment." But then, the defence establishment is yet to involve the Army in the entire process -- of designing, developing, producing and testing the hardware for meeting its "stringent specifications" and get a commitment for the procurement of the product.
 
Nitesh and IPF:

500 Arjun tanks will cost a bomb; their logistics tail will cost a nuke.

I'll give you one example:

You say we can use existing tankers; that is incorrect; we will need more fuel tankers.

Give orders for 1000 or more Arjuns and you shall find the price of Arjuns falling like a deck of card. More the number of Arjuns lesser their price ... Makes sense dosen't it?

Nope the fuel tankers will be of the same type , you don't need any special vehicle except for ARV period. Arjun's logistic tail will be same as T90's or T72.



And forget the cost of buying these additional fuel tankers, what about the cost of running these? Won't you be running these for a lifetime? What about their maintenance? Won't you be hiring further logistics personnel? Won't you be paying these personnel for a lifetime? Won't these tankers need parking space? Won't these personnel need living quarters?

The cost will be same as T90's I don't find anything significant here. Afterall it is supposed to be made in India.

What make you think we cannot retool our personnel. The same guys who switched from western to Russian tanks can manage to learn back. I just don't understand how this issue has been blown out of proportion. All you need is a standard manual of operation and need to stick to that. The rest is what you learn on the way.

Above all isi'nt the prie worth paying for the safety of our boys who drive them, a tank which ensures that they are more survivable and have a good chance of coming back home, a tank which does not burn lke a frying pan on taking a hit because the T90's did not have safety features in mind?(No bustle rack) while Arjun has superior safety in mind. Above all it is my tax money and I want it to be well spent and to well equip the our boys rather than letting them die a horrible death.

Plus the whole doctrine and the entire training procedure of the IA will need major revamping. What about the costs that will be encountered therein? Won't people need training to use Arjun effectively? Won't doctrinal changes be required as Arjun drinks more fuel (therefore, increased stoppages) and are a major qualitative leap? Won't the other arms of our Strike Corps or IBGs need to be revamped around the Arjun (this is again a very resource-consuming process)? Won't the entire spare parts set-up need revamping? Won't logistical complexities increase as the IA will now be operating two very different tank types?

These are things every army has to go through to become modern relatively in that given time period. If IAF can accept the notion of a western aircraft, if IA can move towards net centric warfare and cold start I don't see this as a problem. In fact this is ther perfect time for induction of Arjun as IA is in a period of transition , thus the change needs 6o be made right now.

I'm not denying that local industry needs to be encouraged, but do you not think that inducting Arjun is somewhat unfeasible, given our cost constraints?

All major industrial economies have a solid Millitary Industrial Complex . Thus investing in local industry means more R&D from private sector, more competiotion and more innovation. Thus for a price of 3.5 m$ to 4m$ per tank (which will fall dramatically if the price is decreased)) , the growth tat this will bring in to small and large private players is pretty worth the price.


Hence, why not try and incorporate inputs from the Arjun so as to keep the R&D momentum flowing?

There will be no momentum unless private players enter the field and unless existing units start making profit and become sustainable.

Further, I'm not inclined to buy the argument of the DGMF being corrupt or biased.

For all we know , he an be either ways.

He is not allowing a competitive trial because he knows the T-90 will be clobbered; then, will the government and babus accept the fact they are being nasty bean counters or that we do not have money for the country's defense? No, they won't; the blame will come squarely on the IA and specifically the DGMF. More Arjuns will be pushed down IA's throat without catering to the logistical handicaps. Further, this will be done from the existing budget, thereby cutting on IA’s other pressing needs (net-centric infantry suits and helmets and artillery for example).

If you can't manage these logistical handicaps then you don't deserve to be a great army or a great nation,
 
TRISHUL: Arjun Mk1 MBT: Surviving & Winning
hope this comes true:

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The above illustration graphically illustrates how exactly the Arjun Mk1 MBT will be employed in a future armoured campaign, as visualised by the Indian Army's Directorate General of Mechanised Forces. It is in such a scenario that the Arjun Mk1 MBT will be subjected to competitive firepower and mobility trials against the T-90S MBT early next year. As the Arjun Mk1 comes equipped with a battlespace management system (BMS) and the T-90S does not, the former will have a decisive edge against the T-90S when it comes to enhanced situational awareness, as the Arjun Mk1 will be able to get real-time SITREPS on enemy dispositions and movements from the Army's Corps-level BMS (which in turn derive their real-time inputs from UAVs) and be able to engage in decisive manoeuvre warfare of the type not possible at the moment with either the T-90S or the T-72M1 Combat Improved Ajeya MBTs. No wonder the Indian Army is coy about subjecting the Arjun Mk1 MBT and T-90S to competitive performance trials. It's that simple--Prasun K. Sengupta
 
at least this controversy is gone:

PIB Press Release
The Main Battle Tank (MBT) Arjun were not tampered during any trials. This information was given by Defence Minister Shri AK Antony in a written reply to Shri Krishan Lal Balmiki and Shri Lalit Kishore Chaturvedi in Rajya Sabha today. Reliability trials have been carried out systematically by the army with successful results, he added. Shri Antony said the DRDO has not proposed any enquiry into the matter.
 
at least this controversy is gone:

PIB Press Release
The Main Battle Tank (MBT) Arjun were not tampered during any trials. This information was given by Defence Minister Shri AK Antony in a written reply to Shri Krishan Lal Balmiki and Shri Lalit Kishore Chaturvedi in Rajya Sabha today. Reliability trials have been carried out systematically by the army with successful results, he added. Shri Antony said the DRDO has not proposed any enquiry into the matter.

30 years after the start of this project, anyone should expect much more from such "reliability" trials.

guess what? the best reliability trial is to put it into operational service and let the army use it in their day to day training and operations. here I am talking about mass production scale, not a few dozens in the army for joke purpose.
 
30 years after the start of this project, anyone should expect much more from such "reliability" trials.

guess what? the best reliability trial is to put it into operational service and let the army use it in their day to day training and operations. here I am talking about mass production scale, not a few dozens in the army for joke purpose.

Arjun has taken a lot of time to come up it was supposed to be ready in late 90's but project is delayed. Armed forces have habit of ordering in batches. And first batch is already delivered 15 are in service with other 124 supposed to be inducted. But after doing the trials DGMF wants changes.
 
Arjun has taken a lot of time to come up it was supposed to be ready in late 90's but project is delayed. Armed forces have habit of ordering in batches. And first batch is already delivered 15 are in service with other 124 supposed to be inducted. But after doing the trials DGMF wants changes.

Dude the "15" in service number is not credible as I have seen it being claimed since the 90's..got anything to back up the claim that they are inducted?
 
Exactly my friend.....I have a book written in 2003 that claims this as well as a book written in 1998 that claims the same number. Now either they are inducted for use or they are being tested for the last 5-8 years...which is it?

It's in for testing there were lot of problems but getting sorted out. The comparative trials are due. Can happen any time then the future will be decided about future order. 124 are already ordered.
 
Indian Army to Hold Competitive Trials for Argun MBT, T-90
Dated 14/1/2009


The Indian Army will conduct head-to-head "comparative trials" of the indigenous Arjun main battle tank (MBT), under development for over three decades, and the Russian-built T-90 tanks in June. This is seen as a last desperate bid to save the Arjun project that has already cost the exchequer Rs.3.5 billion ($71.7 million).

The Indian Army had hitherto been ambiguous on the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) demand that the Arjun tank, which India has been trying to manufacture indigenously for nearly 36 years, be assessed head-to-head with the T-90 tanks that the army currently operates. "Any comparison or comments on the performance or reliability (between Arjun and T-90 tanks) can be made only after the Arjun undergoes comparative trials, which we intend to conduct in June this summer," a senior army official told IANS.

The army has made it clear that it will buy no more than the 124 Arjuns it has contracted for because it is unhappy with the tank on various counts. This apart, the army says the Arjun can at best remain in service for five to 10 years while it is looking 20 years ahead and needs a futuristic MBT. The DRDO demand for the comparative trials of the two tanks is being seen as a desperate bid to save the Arjun as it would need to manufacture at least 500 tanks to make the project feasible.

Drawing a comparison between the two tanks, DRDO says Arjun has a greater power-to-weight ratio, a hydro-pneumatic suspension system for a more comfortable ride, a stable platform to fire on the move and a superior fire control system. "The Arjun costs Rs.168 million while the T-90 costs around Rs.120 million. But, then, the Arjun compares favourably with contemporary western MBTs of its class that cost in the range of Rs.170 to 240 million," a DRDO official said.

However, experts see the Arjun tank as complete disaster.

"The Arjun tank is cumbersome for strategic movement, i.e. to be taken from one sector to another. It is too wide and too heavy to be moved in the railway carriages that we have in India. The comparative trials are just an eyewash as Arjun is incomparable to T-90," said strategic analyst, retired Lt. Col. Anil Bhat. The army had last year told a key parliamentary panel that the Arjun failed to deliver at the winter trials conducted in the Rajasthan desert in 2007. The army said that many improvements would have to be carried out before it was satisfied with the tank.

It listed various defects, including a deficient engine and fire control system, inaccurate guns, low speeds in tactical areas - principally the desert - and the tank’s inability to operate in temperatures above 50 degrees Celsius. The Indian Army laid down its qualitative requirement (QR) for the Arjun in 1972. In 1982, it was announced that the prototype was ready for field trials. However, the tank was publicly unveiled for the first time only in 1995.

Arjun was originally meant to be a 40-tonne tank with a 105 mm gun. It has now grown to a 50-tonne tank with a 120 mm gun. The tank was meant to supplement and eventually replace the Soviet-era T-72 MBT that was first inducted in the early 1980s. However, delays in the Arjun project and Pakistan’s decision to purchase the T-80 from Ukraine, prompted India to order 310 T-90s, an upgraded version of the T-72, in 2001.

Indian Army to Hold Competitive Trials for Argun MBT, T-90 | India Defence
 
Arjun tanks' comparative trials with T-90s this summer .


Arjun tanks' comparative trials with T-90s this summer



New Delhi, Jan 16 (PTI) Army and DRDO will jointly carry out comparative trials of indigenous 'Arjun' tanks with Russian-made T-90s this June, increasing prospects of the former's induction in the force soon.
The trials would pave the way for the army to finally accept Arjun tanks for induction, over 36 years after the project was commissioned by the government, defence ministry sources told PTI here today.

"The comparative trials of Arjun tanks with the Russian-made T-90s would take place this summer in June, before the army gets to induct the indigenously developed tanks," a defence ministry source said.

These trials will come exactly a year after the summer trials of Arjun tanks in the Rajasthan deserts had "failed", compelling Minister of State for Defence Production Rao Inderjit Singh to suspect "sabotage" to be behind the tanks performing below expectations during the trials.

The trial in June, sources said, would be the first of the series under which the army and the DRDO would test and compare technologies and capabilities of the two tanks.

"During the summer trials of the two tanks in June, they will be subjected to various other comparative tests in the following months and it is likely to be completed by June 2010," the source said.

After the trials, the army and the DRDO would carry out a detailed analysis of the tests to determine which of the two tanks was better, sources said. PTI
 

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