Arjun Mark II : An Israeli View [ Must Read ]

[Omega007]

And you believe this, because..? Have you by any chance seen Arjun in desert ..?

I should have told for the sake of debate I believe.By the way,AK has slightly greater croscountry speed than Arjun

 

[Omega007]

Yeah,all the tanks including AK that use carousal autoloader can't fire longer and heavier penetrators.Just check the official pak ordnance factory website.You can find the specs of their weak FSAPDS T rounds that can penetrate only 480 mm RHA at 2000 meter.

 

[SupermanKaPapa]

I am quite skeptical about these claims ... Sounds too good to be true...

1.For starters , I dont expect any nation , be it India or anyone else to develop their 1st tank and end up making it better than a proven platform like T-90.

Coz we are licence-producing tanks since 1965 at HVF and first Indian-made tank (Vijayanta) was rolled off the Avadi HVF on December 29, 1965. So we are quite experienced in that field. Also, in today's world, exchange of knowledge is very common.

2. How is it possible that India without any knowledge of making armors comes up with Kanchan whom many claim is better than the Chobam on British Challenger. Not a single Challenger has been destoryed in Iraq or Afg, which bores testimony to its armor. The british have been developing tanks since WW-1. Dont know how valid the claim of Kanchan being better than Chobam will ring true. For me , it maybe possible but not probable.

About Kanchan, already described in my previous post. As far as record of Challenger in Iraq or Afg, please tell me which tank or gunship helicopter was against them. How you can mention those wars' record as the testimony to British Challenger armor??? No doubt, it is very good and potent tank, but your logics aren't.

3. Also , dont think the argument " We took help from foreign players and it incorporates the best technologies " stands true for me... The big question is that why will one nation share its most cutting edge technology with another. What usually a country will do is to provide some kind of expertise on a technology that maybe latest now but will be soon replaced by a new one that they are developing.

This is another laughable logic. What do you mean by ToT then??? Why countries offered full ToT of jets like Rafale vs Eurofighter in MMRCA competition??

4. AFAIK the gun is an imported one , Guess its the Rheinmetal 120 mm rifled one , which definitely is the best in the league. Not sure if we have the capability to produce the same in India yet. Please let me know if its the case. Will make my day.

Let me make your day.

Arjun Gun System

The 120 mm rifled gun for MBT Arjun is made of special steel produced by the latest ESR/Vacuum Arc Remelting process. This has enhanced the performance and fatigue life of the gun barrel. The gun barrel has been partially autofrettaged to a pressure of 800 MPa to achieve a proof pressure of the order of 612 MPa. This is the first indigenously developed gun capable of firing at such a high service pressure achieving muzzle velocity of 1650 m/s and above. Efficient fume extractor of the gun ensures that no toxic fumes are left in the crew compartment. The gun is fitted with FRP Thermal Insulating Jacket to obviate differential thermal effect, thereby enhancing the accuracy of the weapon system.

5. Night Vision and IR systems in the tank are hardly battle proven and as we all know that real test of any system ( even IT softwares) is when they are fielded. AFAIK in the desert trials there wasnt any night time fighting.

How many tanks or their systems in the world are really bettle tested???

Fire control and navigation technologies are provided by Elbit, an Israeli defence company. The Fire Control System is stabilised on two axes, and with an extremely high hit probability (design criteria call for a greater than 0.9 Pk) replaces an earlier analogue one, which had problems due to its inability to function under the harsh desert conditions. The combined day sight from Bharat Electronics Ltd. and the thermal imager (formerly from Sagem, now reported to be from El-Op) constitute the gunner's primary sight. The first batch of tanks of the 124 ordered by the Army will have an all-digital Sagem FCS, whereas the second block will have the BEL unit, which will be used for all units thereafter. The commander's own stabilised panoramic sight allows him to engage targets and/or hand them over to the gunner. The Arjun has an auxiliary power unit to operate weapon systems in silent watch mode as well.

The tank incorporates GPS-based navigation systems and sophisticated frequency hopping radios. The state-of-the-art Battlefield Management System, co-developed by DRDO and Ebit Israel, allows it to network with other fighting units. The Arjun has the capability to network with other tanks, thanks to its Battle Management System. In a search and engage operation, several Arjun tanks can monitor an opponent and his moves, and try to eliminate him in a chase or ambush.

Regarding the T90 vs. Arjun trial, a Ministry of Defence press release reported:

After many years of trial and tribulation it has now proved its worth by its superb performance under various circumstances, such as driving cross-country over rugged sand dunes, detecting, observing and quickly engaging targets, accurately hitting targets – both stationary and moving, with pin pointed accuracy. Its superior fire-power is based on accurate and quick target acquisition capability during day and night in all types of weather and shortest possible reaction time during combat engagements.

6. Not sure about the engine too. Heard it breaks down every now and then , which might not be surprising given our failed attempts with Kaveri and the like.(Agree that Kaveri is a Jet engine while Arjun's is most probably a diesel-turbine engine but still dont think the engine manufacturing capabilities are mature)

I am unable to understand your logic of Arjun's engine and Kaveri.

The engine and transmission are provided by German companies MTU and Renk respectively. The water-cooled engine generates 1,400 hp and is integrated with an Indian turbocharger and epicyclic train gearbox with four forward and 2 reverse gears

I dont have any link or proof or any evidence to support all this and I might well be wrong in everything I have written but its just what I have been able to deduce with my limited knowledge and insight.

Welcome everyone to disprove me and provide reliable links.

Here you are very right. Please increase your knowledge and the insight will automatically improve. No offence, just want you to improve in the area of interest.

Lastly , as mentioned earlier... The real test will be on the battlefield. We should may be deploy some in Iraq and see for itself

Again ............What do you think Iraq is??? A testbed??? And how we are involved with/in Iraq???

 

[Dazzler]

the answer is simple.... When the t 90m was ordered the arjun was facing some issues, but the drdo managed to remove all these kinks and a comparative trial was held with the t 90 and it was found that the arjun is much better than the t 90- hence all these further orders bringing the total number of arjuns in the army to 500..... The t 90 contract cannot be cancelled because
a)it was already signed
b)the arjun is more expensive
c)the hvf avadi had already created all the infrastructure and started production of the t 90 bhishma
d)the t 90 is a very good tank too.... Among all the tanks in the subcontinent in recent times it is the only tank which is battle tested

So according to you, t-90 was an interim replacement for Arjun right? So by this definition when Arjun pleased the army, t-90 orders should have been terminated. Then you say the contract can not be canceled, hmm, so IA officials did not insist to add a cancel clause which they do more often if we look at recent procurement history. My question still remains that it is the troublesome nature of Arjun that has made room for t-90S, and t-90M. Also, the latter's contract was signed when Arjun was being tested and rejected. All this point's to one thing, there are certain short comings with Arjun otherwise Indians would have never gone for t-90m.

 

[Dazzler]

I don't know where you get this hypothesis that DRDO forced political system to accept its equipment ???Do you have any link to it ??
In any country Armed force is one of the most powerful entity ,asked your army they knows this better .No body had ever forced Indian army to buy its thing , if its satisfy its AFR then it happily accept it.Arjun MBT satisfied its required performance and now going to another level as MK2 ,you just keep yourself updated kid and watchout ,how many Arjun tank will be in IA by2015 and how many Ak will be in PA....

Here is one example of politics, more to come...

http:///drdo’s-arjun-tank-scores-bull’s-eye-on-indian-army-egos


As of now PA has around 400 AKs, last batch was of AK-1, till 2015 i believe it should be around 600 or even more depending on their needs.

 

[rockstarIN]

So according to you, t-90 was an interim replacement for Arjun right? So by this definition when Arjun pleased the army, t-90 orders should have been terminated. Then you say the contract can not be canceled, hmm, so IA officials did not insist to add a cancel clause which they do more often if we look at recent procurement history. My question still remains that it is the troublesome nature of Arjun that has made room for t-90S, and t-90M. Also, the latter's contract was signed when Arjun was being tested and rejected. All this point's to one thing, there are certain short comings with Arjun otherwise Indians would have never gone for t-90m.

Your question has been answered several times here, but you choose to ignore those. Several posts it has been mentioned as our doctrine, logistics etc.

 

[Dazzler]

Leo2 ... you sure are funny !

Now I wonder why Al-Khalid surfaced without ANY problems reported whatsoever ... copies of PLA Type 90-IIM don't need any testing !

AK project was handled very professionally by Pak, four prototypes of varying specifications, the best that fulfilled our requirements was inducted and since then being improved. All this happened in a span of 10 years. Unlike Arjun's 35 years and counting.

 

[rockstarIN]

AK project was handled very professionally by Pak, four prototypes of varying specifications, the best that fulfilled our requirements was inducted and since then being improved. All this happened in a span of 10 years. Unlike Arjun's 35 years and counting.

There is somthing in decision making that 'you buy' or you make'. People usually do such analysis who has got enough money to buy or make. Pakistan has to work in an environment where it has to stick with the available resources. And it do well with that. That does not mean that the advisory 'bought' some and 'make' some. that basis is that we have options.

 

[tjpf]

AK project was handled very professionally by Pak, four prototypes of varying specifications, the best that fulfilled our requirements was inducted and since then being improved. All this happened in a span of 10 years. Unlike Arjun's 35 years and counting.

the moment it rolls out pakistan army should start counting its days coz they are numbered!!!!!!!!!!!
how is that for a fanboy statement now shall we seriously debate on ARJUN"S capability

 

[Dazzler]

Yeah,all the tanks including AK that use carousal autoloader can't fire longer and heavier penetrators.Just check the official pak ordnance factory website.You can find the specs of their weak FSAPDS T rounds that can penetrate only 480 mm RHA at 2000 meter.

AK-1 has addressed this issue but your info about AK unable to fire long-rod is wrong. As of 2005, all Pak AKs, T-80ud, AZ, T-85 are using DU round called Naiza, (spear), able to destroy 550-60 mm thickness at 2 km. Chinese penetrators are not used on AKs and all types of shells are developed in house with corporation of Ukraine, later with South Korean Poongsang and finally with French Nexter (GIAT industries). Another version of Naiza with classified penetration is already developed and currently being deployed. Read more buddy!

 

[Dazzler]

Naiza DU, notice the long rod in front of the round.... Initially designed for T-80ud, now compatible with AKs

New 125mm anti-tank DU round called NAIZA was being displayed by Al-Technique. The NAIZA is said to have a penetration of 550mm in RHA. It has been made compatible with Pakistani T-80UD tanks. « Pakisatan Forces Picture and Video

 

[Omega007]

AK-1 has addressed this issue but your info about AK unable to fire long-rod is wrong. As of 2005, all Pak AKs, T-80ud, AZ, T-85 are using DU round called Naiza, (spear), able to destroy 550-60 mm thickness at 2 km. Chinese penetrators are not used on AKs and all types of shells are developed in house with corporation of Ukraine, later with South Korean Poongsang and finally with French Nexter (GIAT industries). Another version of Naiza with classified penetration is already developed and currently being deployed. Read more buddy!

You should read more buddy.I told longrod rounds means rod length of over 800 mm like Arjun use 920 mm tungsten rods with weight of 9 kg.Where did DU come here from??And you don't need to believe me,believe your ordnance factory's official website.There is every detail about the FSATDS T round of AK and the rod length is written just 550 mm.Now don't say it is a fanboy article or unreliable source.
I know about your Naiza DU,it's good.That's why I told you to check my posts at the other Arjun thread.A member told me fanboy as I had said about the DU round of AK.

 

[Dazzler]

Naiza is not made by POF, rather by NDC, for general info check wiki....

Naiza (125 mm anti-tank round) - a DU APFSDS anti-tank round developed to be fired by T-80UD tanks in service with the Pakistan Army. A model of the round was put on display at the IDEX 2001 exhibition in the United Arab Emirates and it was stated to have a DU long rod penetrator, performance 25% greater than NDC's 105 mm DU round and a saddle-type sabot with re-arranged forward bore-rider for more accurate alignment with the T-80UD's autoloader.[3] Displayed at IDEAS 2002 alongside DU rounds produced by other Pakistani organisations. Reportedly named "Naiza", made compatible with the T-80UD tank and stated to be capable of penetrating 550 mm of RHA.[4]

National Development Complex - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Dazzler]

This is what POF manufactures.....

Pakistan Ordnance Factories

 

[Omega007]

Naiza is not made by POF, rather by NDC, for general info check wiki....

Naiza (125 mm anti-tank round) - a DU APFSDS anti-tank round developed to be fired by T-80UD tanks in service with the Pakistan Army. A model of the round was put on display at the IDEX 2001 exhibition in the United Arab Emirates and it was stated to have a DU long rod penetrator, performance 25% greater than NDC's 105 mm DU round and a saddle-type sabot with re-arranged forward bore-rider for more accurate alignment with the T-80UD's autoloader.[3] Displayed at IDEAS 2002 alongside DU rounds produced by other Pakistani organisations. Reportedly named "Naiza", made compatible with the T-80UD tank and stated to be capable of penetrating 550 mm of RHA.[4]

National Development Complex - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Bro,when did I tell that Naiza DU is produced in POF.I know very well that it is produced in NDC.That's why there is no information about it in POF website.I told to check for the FSAPDS T rounds that are produced in POF.
REGARDS....