Arjun-II MBT development l Updates & discussion.

[kaku1]

I couldn't care less about which of them is superior, just pointed out why the Army says they can't use it as much as they planned and why they prefer the FMBT in larger numbers, rather than the Arjun MK2 and the overweight surely is one of the reasons.



You can't compare the whole tank and generalise it, the Israeli electro optics or APS belongs to the best in the world, but they are only part of the tank and doesn't make the performance of the whole tank right? And if you look at the Arjun MK2 turret and the latest Leopard 2 upgrades, you will see how far behind we are compared to Germany.

Possibly. But did the weight issue is so much a problem for logistic? How much time it took for ICF to manufacture new coaches that can handle Arjun. Even Indian Railway is of broad gauge, unlike many parts of world.

On other note, did you accept the capability of Arjun is far superior than T-90 in cold start? Because the current doctrine is to invade just 40-50 Km inside and hold that territory unlike Sunderji doctrine, where it was to reach Islamabad? So, urban warfare and Bridges is not that much problem.

 

[sancho]

Possibly. But did the weight issue is so much a problem for logistic?

=>

Pressure on the Ground - Arjun Mk-2 offers enhanced firepower, but it’s too heavy to go where the Army wants it

...We learnt that while the Arjun Mk-2 is substantially improved and more capable than the Arjun Mk-1; it is too heavy, limiting areas where it can be deployed by the Army. And that renders it unsuitable for the army’s operational requirements for a Main Battle Tank (MBT). According to P Sivakumar, Director CVRDE, “the weight of the Arjun prevents it from being deployed in all the areas required by the Army”.

Keeping this in mind, the Arjun Mk-2’s improved performance seems to have put the Army in a spot. What does one do with a tank that is fast, can shoot accurately on the move and is relatively well protected but is too heavy to be deployed in the deserts near the Pakistan border as a replacement for the T-72 or T-90? Paradoxically, while the tank itself has demonstrated high speed and mobility, its weight precludes it from being able to operate anywhere the army wants it to. The Arjun Mk-2 will weigh around 67 tonnes and this fatally limits the tank’s operational effectiveness for the Indian Army.

The tank is too heavy to be deployed across the border with Pakistan. It is unable to effectively traverse terrain filled with natural and/or artificial obstacles. Or areas criss-crossed with rivers and canals. That rules out most places in Rajasthan, Punjab and the mountainous terrain of the J&K sector.

Arjun Mk-2 offers enhanced firepower, but it’s too heavy to go where the Army wants it


As I said earlier, I don't care about which tank is better, as long as both can protect India, but my concern with Arjun is the development delays, the time and money Indian Taxpayer spent and what we got in return for it. And as you can see in the above, it's not only IA that says it's too heavy and faces operational limitations, so who is to blame?
Maybe the solution would be a new Tank EX, that takes the base of the T90 and the turret of the Arjun MK2, using the best of both. At least that should be a faster solution than developing FMBT from scratch and waiting even more years.

 

[kaku1]

=>



Arjun Mk-2 offers enhanced firepower, but it’s too heavy to go where the Army wants it


As I said earlier, I don't care about which tank is better, as long as both can protect India, but my concern with Arjun is the development delays, the time and money Indian Taxpayer spent and what we got in return for it. And as you can see in the above, it's not only IA that says it's too heavy and faces operational limitations, so who is to blame?
Maybe the solution would be a new Tank EX, that takes the base of the T90 and the turret of the Arjun MK2, using the best of both. At least that should be a faster solution than developing FMBT from scratch and waiting even more years.

One thing, day back in 2006 the DRDO come up with the idea of Tank EX, which is total indian solution, as T-72 chassis with Arjun turret, including BEL and israeli sensors. Bur why they rejected? So, I think now the ball is in Army's court, that they pursue DRDO for development of a new advanced Tank Ex on T-90 chassis. And allow the DRDO for Arjun Mk.3 as evolution model, instead of going to FMBT from scratch. Like, re-engineer the Arjun for 50t, ask for gas turbine with partnership with GE or Honeywell. And firm the order of 500 Arjun Mk2, so that the manufacturing line in Avadhi become mature for future manufacturing, and CRVDE able to make changes for Mk.3. Like Leopard and Markheva. One thing, Leopard didnt become advanced in one day, with 4 decades of R&D, with several orders.

This is upto IA to create military industrial complex inside india, not of DRDO, they cant do that without any orders from Army. No one can reach western type standards in one day, thats require many decades of R&D, you have to accept that. BTW, even our threats are not against western countries, that we require latest leopard tank. The Arjun is a fine tank according to the threats.

Producing FMBT from scratch is impossible, it have to be evolutionary.

BTW, The IA dont want heavy tank, they dont want medium tank, what they actually want, total foreign solutions?

 

[sancho]

Bur why they rejected?

Not sure why they rejected it, could had been based on the costs, since half of the tank would be completelly new, while the T72 base was just an old used one. Upgrading the T72s with some minor new techs and capabilities might had been the more cost-effective choice.

So, I think now the ball is in Army's court, that they pursue DRDO for development of a new advanced Tank Ex on T-90 chassis.

No, it would be in DRDO's court, since it's in DRDO's interest to get at least more orders for 50% of the Arjun MK2, rather than non until FMBT might be ready. The problem is, DRDO itself is driven by the idea that they are world class and they rather want to prove that by developing something completelly new, than using available stuff and improving it.

And allow the DRDO for Arjun Mk.3 as evolution model, instead of going to FMBT from scratch. Like, re-engineer the Arjun for 50t

That's not possible, since you have to design the tank completelly new, with a smaller form factor to get to such levels. Arjuns potential is limited and with every upgrade it got only heavier and heavier, that's why a T90 Tank EX MK2 would be the only solution for the short term, other than buying upgraded Russian T90MS.

No one can reach western type standards in one day, thats require many decades of R&D, you have to accept that.

Who is expecting them to provide western standards? I would be happy with a Tank Ex based on T90 and Arjun MK2, since that's simpler and more realistic at this point, than DRDO developing a capable FMBT and since it might suit IA's requirements more than Arjun MK2. So my expectations on DRDO are pretty low, compared to what THEIR promises are, that however is the benchmark we have to rate DRDO on or?

 

[TWINBLADE]

Cannon Launch Missile Development Programme
The main objective of the project is to design, develop, test, and demonstrate a semi-active Laser
homing cannon launched missile that can be launched from 120mm gun and a tripod. All sub-systems
of missile have been developed. Instrumented development flight tests were conducted from tripod
launcher.Dynamic performance of propulsion system was satisfactory. Ballistic range > 6 km was
achieved. Mid-course guidance capability has been successfully tested. Main High explosive anti-tank
(HEAT) warhead tested against rolled homogeneous armour (RHA) and a consistent penetration of
>750mm were achieved. A gimbaled laser seeker with a seeking range of ~2km has been developed
and flight tested
drdo.gov.in/drdo/English/DRDO-a-glimpse-ebook.pdf

 

[Water Car Engineer]

 

[Water Car Engineer]

 

[Rockstar]

The tank is a top quality product made by drdo and I think it is also very advanced. But the government simply wants to encourage imports for kickbacks. The new defense minister should order more arjun tanks for the western sector.

 

[me_itsme]

Sorry for the OT question. But does anyone know whatever happened to the T-90MS deal for our eastern front? The latest news i saw on that was MOD has ordered some 300 T-90MS. Can any member please clarify?

 

[Water Car Engineer]

Sorry for the OT question. But does anyone know whatever happened to the T-90MS deal for our eastern front? The latest news i saw on that was MOD has ordered some 300 T-90MS. Can any member please clarify?

Never heard of such a deal.

In the larger perspective though, the T-90 replacement, like the BMP2 replacement are under the make category.

 

[me_itsme]

Never heard of such a deal.

In the larger perspective though, the T-90 replacement, like the BMP2 replacement are under the make category.

So are there any possibility the T90s will be converted to MS ?

 

[Etilla]

One thing, day back in 2006 the DRDO come up with the idea of Tank EX, which is total indian solution, as T-72 chassis with Arjun turret, including BEL and israeli sensors. Bur why they rejected? So, I think now the ball is in Army's court, that they pursue DRDO for development of a new advanced Tank Ex on T-90 chassis. And allow the DRDO for Arjun Mk.3 as evolution model, instead of going to FMBT from scratch. Like, re-engineer the Arjun for 50t, ask for gas turbine with partnership with GE or Honeywell. And firm the order of 500 Arjun Mk2, so that the manufacturing line in Avadhi become mature for future manufacturing, and CRVDE able to make changes for Mk.3. Like Leopard and Markheva. One thing, Leopard didnt become advanced in one day, with 4 decades of R&D, with several orders.

This is upto IA to create military industrial complex inside india, not of DRDO, they cant do that without any orders from Army. No one can reach western type standards in one day, thats require many decades of R&D, you have to accept that. BTW, even our threats are not against western countries, that we require latest leopard tank. The Arjun is a fine tank according to the threats.

Producing FMBT from scratch is impossible, it have to be evolutionary.

BTW, The IA dont want heavy tank, they dont want medium tank, what they actually want, total foreign solutions?

Gas Turbine engine in Arjun will make it a complete dud.

Its already too heavy for any meaningfull use.

 

[CONNAN]

The T90 Vs Arjun tabled below

 

[Omega007]

Not sure why they rejected it, could had been based on the costs, since half of the tank would be completelly new, while the T72 base was just an old used one. Upgrading the T72s with some minor new techs and capabilities might had been the more cost-effective choice.



No, it would be in DRDO's court, since it's in DRDO's interest to get at least more orders for 50% of the Arjun MK2, rather than non until FMBT might be ready. The problem is, DRDO itself is driven by the idea that they are world class and they rather want to prove that by developing something completelly new, than using available stuff and improving it.



That's not possible, since you have to design the tank completelly new, with a smaller form factor to get to such levels. Arjuns potential is limited and with every upgrade it got only heavier and heavier, that's why a T90 Tank EX MK2 would be the only solution for the short term, other than buying upgraded Russian T90MS.



Who is expecting them to provide western standards? I would be happy with a Tank Ex based on T90 and Arjun MK2, since that's simpler and more realistic at this point, than DRDO developing a capable FMBT and since it might suit IA's requirements more than Arjun MK2. So my expectations on DRDO are pretty low, compared to what THEIR promises are, that however is the benchmark we have to rate DRDO on or?

Wow!!I have never seen such massive amount of bollocks stuffed into a single post ever before!!This is a new low even by your standards!!And YOU WOULD BE HAPPY!!!!Since when your will became so relevant to the Indian defence forces,huh kiddo??My advice to you - stop flattering yourself so much!!If you think you could do better than the ones in DRDO,then comeback from your comfortable life of Germany and start doing it yourself the hard way, (assuming you haven't faked about your whereabouts)because talk is cheap.Either you put your money where your mouth is or it would be better to keep your pie hole shut.Because you are talking bullshit about things which you clearly do not know too well about,which makes you look like a big fool.You think it makes you look very smart,but in reality,you are just proving how much of an idiot you really are kiddo.

You do not have wings or flippers,then why bother flapping??Keep shut and leave it upon the ones who know their shit.You are into planes,stick to your silly planes.Do not venture out into uncharted waters.

 

[Water Car Engineer]

Arjun vs T90S trials. T90 was given relaxed parameters for all activities, pretty funny stuff.


Im guessing these were the trials back when Arjun beat the T90.. Again, pretty funny stuff.