Arjun-II MBT development l Updates & discussion.

[Echo_419]

@sancho it is funny how arjun designed according to GSQR given by army and modified numerous times based on their demand now does not work for them.
Is this your thinking or army source for this?
Arjun is useful in other terrain too. And logistics can be organized.

Heads must be rolled enough of this drama by Army

 

[sancho]

And why doesn't Arjun Mk2 (58T) work for IA, just curious, Weight I highly doubt is an issue, as heavyweights like Leopard 2 (62.3 T), Challenger 2 (62 T) and M1A2 Abrams (62T) works for everyone else.

Actually weight is the issue as several reports showed, since the MK2 comes around 67t now in combatweight, even the MK1 is above 60t contrary to earlier aims of the development and it doesn't make sense to point to other tanks used by other forces around the world, since all that counts is the Indian threat enviroment and the operational requirements of IA. After the MK2 came out and the weight increase officially confirmed, we even have seen reports that the Arjun will have problems in certain areas of the western borders and therefor provides IA with operational problems. One reason why they might be more interested in FMBT, rather than Arjun MK2 in larger numbers.

@sancho it is funny how arjun designed according to GSQR given by army and modified numerous times based on their demand now does not work for them.

That's the same problem that we see with LCA or AMCA, since these projects are "designed and developed" by DRDO, with the only imput of the forces being basic set of requirements. IA wasn't included in the design of Arjun and surely didn't demanded to make it wider and longer than the Leopard 2 tank, nor did IAF demanded LCA to be the smallest fighter in it's class, but both decisions turned out to be problems for the development. Arjun got too heavy and big, LCA got draggy and with too little interlan space for upgrades. So it's one thing that the forces providing basic requirements, but it's another thing what DRDO as the developer builds around these requirements, let alone if they are able to meet the requirements of the forces.
AMCA faces the same problem, IAF don't want it but still gave basic requirements for it and DRDO is developing a fighter now according to their own ideas with the aim to meet IAFs basic requirements (ignoring the fact that AMCA is operationally not needed). Unless we start to take the forces directly into the developments of these projects, by leading them and deciding about design and capability on their own, there will always be a difference between what DRDO wants to provide and what the forces actually needs.

 

[hussain0216]

Without trolling

I never understood why india developed the arjun, a type of tank they would ever procure in limited numbers even if it was successful

rather than try to develop a tank in the medium-heavy category thst could become the mainstay of the Indian tank force

it makes no sense and the Indian military seems to agree

 

[nik22]

Without trolling

I never understood why india developed the arjun, a type of tank they would ever procure in limited numbers even if it was successful

rather than try to develop a tank in the medium-heavy category thst could become the mainstay of the Indian tank force

it makes no sense and the Indian military seems to agree

Development was as per requirement of Army. May be Army did not want Arjun to succeed.

 

[hussain0216]

Development was as per requirement of Army. May be Army did not want Arjun to succeed.

That makes no sense, your basically saying the indian army wanted to waste multi millions of dollars and scupper indian desires to be self sufficient and independent

 

[nik22]

That makes no sense, your basically saying the indian army wanted to waste multi millions of dollars and scupper indian desires to be self sufficient and independent

Requirement (GSQR) of Arjun was provided by Army. Unlike T72, Army wanted Arjun to be a heavy category tank with thick armor.

I think DRDO overshoot weight requirement but that can always happen. I am sure army or DRDO did not do any scientific analysis to analyze how much weight tank would have based on requirement. All Army must have done is to provide requirements keeping some benchmark tanks in mind.

Now you have a hulk of a tank which Army find unsuitable mainly due to weight. Would you blame developer(DRDO) for that ? I would not. My idea is Army always wanted it to be a secondary tank, not main.

By above, I am no way saying DRDO did tremendous job. But I would not really blame them. It was first tank. Product maturity need time.

 

[sancho]

I think DRDO overshoot weight requirement but that can always happen. I am sure army or DRDO did not do any scientific analysis to analyze how much weight tank would have based on requirement. All Army must have done is to provide requirements keeping some benchmark tanks in mind.

So you have to blame DRDO for the development problems and delays, although army gave basic requirements in the GSQR!
One simply can't relief DRDO, just because the Army has a bad reputation about indigenous stuff, the fact is the tank is far delayed and not according to the requirements. The Army can only be blamed for requirement changes over the time, if they didn't happened because of the delays, or if they had different requirements in the trials of course and now it simply seems that FMBT is in the focus, but lets see and hope that the MK2 trials will prove to be more convincing even with the weight issue.

 

[Nodata]

Army must order 2000 Arjun and stop this imported drama like imported air force does.

No more T-90 bullshit no proper gun barrel.

Indigenous Indigenous Indigenous mantra of India.

 

[SOHEIL]

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MK1

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MK2

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[SOHEIL]

 

[SOHEIL]

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[kaku1]

Actually weight is the issue as several reports showed, since the MK2 comes around 67t now in combatweight, even the MK1 is above 60t contrary to earlier aims of the development and it doesn't make sense to point to other tanks used by other forces around the world, since all that counts is the Indian threat enviroment and the operational requirements of IA. After the MK2 came out and the weight increase officially confirmed, we even have seen reports that the Arjun will have problems in certain areas of the western borders and therefor provides IA with operational problems. One reason why they might be more interested in FMBT, rather than Arjun MK2 in larger numbers.



That's the same problem that we see with LCA or AMCA, since these projects are "designed and developed" by DRDO, with the only imput of the forces being basic set of requirements. IA wasn't included in the design of Arjun and surely didn't demanded to make it wider and longer than the Leopard 2 tank, nor did IAF demanded LCA to be the smallest fighter in it's class, but both decisions turned out to be problems for the development. Arjun got too heavy and big, LCA got draggy and with too little interlan space for upgrades. So it's one thing that the forces providing basic requirements, but it's another thing what DRDO as the developer builds around these requirements, let alone if they are able to meet the requirements of the forces.
AMCA faces the same problem, IAF don't want it but still gave basic requirements for it and DRDO is developing a fighter now according to their own ideas with the aim to meet IAFs basic requirements (ignoring the fact that AMCA is operationally not needed). Unless we start to take the forces directly into the developments of these projects, by leading them and deciding about design and capability on their own, there will always be a difference between what DRDO wants to provide and what the forces actually needs.

One thing, Did you implementing that T-90 is superior to Arjun, and the overweight issues.

So, does it means India or Israeli or German tech.( as german engine was used) is far behind Russian?

 

[SOHEIL]

MK3 ?

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[sancho]

One thing, Did you implementing that T-90 is superior to Arjun, and the overweight issues.

I couldn't care less about which of them is superior, just pointed out why the Army says they can't use it as much as they planned and why they prefer the FMBT in larger numbers, rather than the Arjun MK2 and the overweight surely is one of the reasons.

So, does it means India or Israeli or German tech.( as german engine was used) is far behind Russian?

You can't compare the whole tank and generalise it, the Israeli electro optics or APS belongs to the best in the world, but they are only part of the tank and doesn't make the performance of the whole tank right? And if you look at the Arjun MK2 turret and the latest Leopard 2 upgrades, you will see how far behind we are compared to Germany.

 

[SOHEIL]

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