Arjun-II MBT development l Updates & discussion.

[Mr.S.Singh]

Do I have to start digging mud over IA's failures in various areas? Even in this tank endeavor, why was the army not involved during the design and implementation phases.

Was the airforce involved untill recently for Tejas ? Is the amry involved in any missiles technology ? Is the army involved when Insas was desgined and built ? the problem is in our syste,

The thing is every body falls short at some area or the other. In this case DRDO was not able to meet all the requirements. That does not mean that you throw the baby out with the bath water.
Every body including the Army has to work within the resources that they have access to. I have heard our IA chief say that they will fight with what they have. Arjun is one decent offering they have and they must prefer it over external products. However nobody is asking them to stop asking for improvements.

Sir you are getting too emotional, i have quoted what an ex-officer has said, i don't stand by his word
he told me a few things
operational requirement where given, which are taken time to be meet-
transportation problem, which clearly is, carriages have to be pulled by trains to all corners of India from east to the west

what operational requirement? Did IA test t90s in India to check whether it fulfills their operational requirement? testing was done in russia and after induction T90s were not able to bear the heat of rajasthan desert. operational requirements only come into play for indigenous products. For faren products, its always induct first and we will see.

That is for the govt of India to take up and whack the army

IA generals say arjun is heavy and at the same time ask for modifications to it that will further increase its weight.

arjuns weight cannot be reduced
at least they would iron out the problems, and look at inducting Arjun MBT II

Being working with the govt in various departments, i have realized, do whatever you want but stick to their specifications, if they are not meet your are doomed.

 

[IND151]

Indeed Arjun has got some serious gaps when it comes to mounting of add on armor modules on the right side of front turret (not the left).The decision of mounting a BFSR was an ingenious one,but chose the worst area possible as the mounting place.It's prohibiting them from mounting ERA and also leaving the BFSR vulnerable to front attacks!! They should've placed it on the turret roof on a retractable mount in the bustle area,that would've been the ideal place,hope they rectify this serious design flaw sooner than later.

But after saying all this things,I was talking about the base armor protection of Arjun tanks,not about the add ons.In terms of base armor protection,Arjun has got a clear and decisive advantage over AK.
If we are to believe the words of Andrey Tarashenko from KMDB,the los of front turret base armor of AK 1 is no greater than 620mm at 0 degree,where as for Arjun it's close to about ~950mm.
Besides,the AK uses totally modular armor blocks on the front turret.Now it has got the advantage of quick changing of damaged modules but it comes at a price,a totally modular armor won't give you as much protection,especially against repeated attacks as would a solid semi modular structure provide.The Israelis felt it very badly with their Merkava Mk4s.And besides another problem with modular armor package is that you have to leave some gaps in the armor as places for mounting bolts and thus the amount of composite material you can stuff into has to be reduced.That's why you will see most of the premium tank building nations including USA and Germany sticking to semi modular construction rather than going for all out modularity.

Besides,AK doesn't have composite armor on the turret sides,where as the crew compartment of Arjun has side protection with 400mm base armor.

AK don't have isolated ammunition compartments,it lacks ballistic skirts.It's frontal hull protection is also poor compared to Arjun.

The gun on AK isn't really better either since they are still using the old L/48 2A46!!

Yet somehow our Arjun becomes "Arjunk" and the AK becomes the "Wounder waffe"!!I wonder how.

Kindly give source for this claim.

AK uses totally modular armor blocks on the front turret.Now it has got the advantage of quick changing of damaged modules but it comes at a price,a totally modular armor won't give you as much protection,especially against repeated attacks as would a solid semi modular structure provide.The Israelis felt it very badly with their Merkava Mk4s.

This is new to me.

 

[Bhasad Singh Mundi]

Being working with the govt in various departments, i have realized, do whatever you want but stick to their specifications, if they are not meet your are doomed.

No one can meet IA and IAF requirements. and once they are cleared for faren induction they water down for faren oems.

 

[Omega007]

Kindly give source for this claim.



This is new to me.

As for the Al Khalid front turret LOS thickness,you have to visit Andrei bt's blog,I've lost the link.But you should still be able to find it.He's got vast knowledge about Ukrainian tanks and other armored vehicles.Besides if you want to gain knowledge about these things,I would recommend you to join thr tanknet forum and D F I.

WRT Arjun front turret LOS thickness,Kunal and Sayare had taken quite precise measurements during Defexpo 2014 and posted those in D F I.

And lastly, it might be new to you but to us,the tanknet members,it's nothing new.

 

[Omega007]

lol yes, retired army intelligence officer, he is studying with me in my university here in UK

there u go :p
Punjab canal bridges too fragile for Arjun tank - The Times of India
Plus 60 ton a tank, that means less tanks can be pulled per train


its not about excuses, its more about operational requirement, when the drdo was given some bloody specifications, where they sleeping over it ?

What the **** are you talking about kid??
Do you even know that at first Arjun was meant to be a 45 ton tank with a three men crew??Then midway the development,the Pakistanis decided to induct the M1A1 and the Indian Army panicked.They suddenly realised that their supposed medium tank was no match and then they quickly backtracked and drafted a new GSQR.
Now they demanded the new tank had to be equipped with a 120mm high velocity gun,should have unitary ammo,isolated ammunition and fuel compartments,heavier armor that can take hits from the L44 gun of M1A1 and have a four men crew.In short,Army wanted a tank that could go head to head and toe to toe against the export model M1A1s.So the design had to be completely changed midstream which resulted in significant time and cost overruns.No wonder the resulting new tank gained so much extra weight!!It was not at all DRDO's fault,what was the army guys thinking then??Didn't they know that what they demanded was not possible without enhancing the weight significantly??If they had so much problem with weight,then why did they draft such a GSQR??Does it mean the Army deliberately wanted the Arjun to fail right from the start??Is that what you are implying moron??

Listen kiddo,it seems to me either that retired "intelligence officer" of yours has been suffering from amnesia and hence has lost all his rationale or more likely,you have been lying through your @rse like many a people do here;it's quite common here actually - take your pick.

lol yes, retired army intelligence officer, he is studying with me in my university here in UK

there u go :p
Punjab canal bridges too fragile for Arjun tank - The Times of India
Plus 60 ton a tank, that means less tanks can be pulled per train


its not about excuses, its more about operational requirement, when the drdo was given some bloody specifications, where they sleeping over it ?

What the **** are you talking about kid??
Do you even know that at first Arjun was meant to be a 45 ton tank with a three men crew??Then midway the development,the Pakistanis decided to induct the M1A1 and the Indian Army panicked.They suddenly realised that their supposed medium tank was no match and then they quickly backtracked and drafted a new GSQR.
Now they demanded the new tank had to be equipped with a 120mm high velocity gun,should have unitary ammo,isolated ammunition and fuel compartments,heavier armor that can take hits from the L44 gun of M1A1 and have a four men crew.In short,Army wanted a tank that could go head to head and toe to toe against the export model M1A1s.So the design had to be completely changed midstream which resulted in significant time and cost overruns.No wonder the resulting new tank gained so much extra weight!!It was not at all DRDO's fault,what was the army guys thinking then??Didn't they know that what they demanded was not possible without enhancing the weight significantly??If they had so much problem with weight,then why did they draft such a GSQR??So should that lead us to believe that the Army deliberately wanted the Arjun to fail right from the start??Is that what you are implying moron??

Listen kiddo,it seems to me either that retired "intelligence officer" of yours has been suffering from amnesia and hence has lost all his rationale or more likely,you have been lying through your @rse like many a people do here;it's quite common here actually - take your pick.

 

[Dazzler]

As i said,You will never see fine prints as you never going to accept that he actually compared AL kahlid to an Chinese copy of Upgraded T72 which is not yet tested unlike T72,but he actually shown the balance overview of tanks.At the end of the day,Arjun Mk2 is not yet finalized,All they are doing is,testing on MK1.While,a jingoistic no matter what always defends his country glory ,actually a chinese glory in this case.

I am as neutral as it gets by the way, my personal fav mbt is BM OPLOT, not Alkhalid
first, lets not make this an x vs y thread, a fine discussion on Arjun would do just good. On Alkhalid, you need to read a bit more as what the Project P-90 was, how it started, prototyping, pakistani specific tests and systems developed, trials, troubles, there is a world of difference between MBT 2000 and Alkhali in virtually every department.

Back to the topic

 

[Dazzler]

Indeed Arjun has got some serious gaps when it comes to mounting of add on armor modules on the right side of front turret (not the left).The decision of mounting a BFSR was an ingenious one,but chose the worst area possible as the mounting place.It's prohibiting them from mounting ERA and also leaving the BFSR vulnerable to front attacks!! They should've placed it on the turret roof on a retractable mount in the bustle area,that would've been the ideal place,hope they rectify this serious design flaw sooner than later.

But after saying all this things,I was talking about the base armor protection of Arjun tanks,not about the add ons.In terms of base armor protection,Arjun has got a clear and decisive advantage over AK.
If we are to believe the words of Andrey Tarashenko from KMDB,the los of front turret base armor of AK 1 is no greater than 620mm at 0 degree,where as for Arjun it's close to about ~950mm.
Besides,the AK uses totally modular armor blocks on the front turret.Now it has got the advantage of quick changing of damaged modules but it comes at a price,a totally modular armor won't give you as much protection,especially against repeated attacks as would a solid semi modular structure provide.The Israelis felt it very badly with their Merkava Mk4s.And besides another problem with modular armor package is that you have to leave some gaps in the armor as places for mounting bolts and thus the amount of composite material you can stuff into has to be reduced.That's why you will see most of the premium tank building nations including USA and Germany sticking to semi modular construction rather than going for all out modularity.

Besides,AK doesn't have composite armor on the turret sides,where as the crew compartment of Arjun has side protection with 400mm base armor.

AK don't have isolated ammunition compartments,it lacks ballistic skirts.It's frontal hull protection is also poor compared to Arjun.

The gun on AK isn't really better either since they are still using the old L/48 2A46!!

Yet somehow our Arjun becomes "Arjunk" and the AK becomes the "Wounder waffe"!!I wonder how.

Good post but some things are off the mark,

composite blocks are easy to replace, yes they have gaps for bolts etc but is minimum, not even noticable at times, Tanks that follow this method is Altay, T-90, OPLOT, T-80ud, AK and few others.

About the gun, its 48 cal yes, but the electroslag remelting steel coupled with autofrettaged process, allows for a much powerful gun than a 2a46Mseries, till last year, metal blanks were imported form France. Ukraine follow the same route for KBA-3 series, in fact, the only similarity these guns have with a 2a46 design is dimenions and 125mm caliber. Besides, the gun is proved repeatedly in exercises as more powerful than KBA-3.

AK has high hardened steel plates on roof and sides, layers, can be added with ERA if needed. What more do you want.

Almost all sources quoted front LOS of AK wrong, simply because none of them know the exact thickness, militarysta measured it at 660mm, Andrei measured 640, some say it is 680mm. No definite figure, i measured the thing back at IDEAS 2008 at 720mm.all of them without ERA plates. BUT, no final wold.
Arjun also do not have blow off panels as of yet, the only tank that has it in true sense is M1Axx series. However, AK has a very advanced FCS and network centric system in operation which has no perils in the region as of now.

 

[GORKHALI]

I am as neutral as it gets by the way, my personal fav mbt is BM OPLOT, not Alkhalid
first, lets not make this an x vs y thread, a fine discussion on Arjun would do just good. On Alkhalid, you need to read a bit more as what the Project P-90 was, how it started, prototyping, pakistani specific tests and systems developed, trials, troubles, there is a world of difference between MBT 2000 and Alkhali in virtually every department.

Back to the topic

Same here BM oplot is something even I have some envy for it. .Better than T90S.Till T90S get upgraded to T90MS.Oplot rules the subcontinent.

 

[Omega007]

Yeah,the BM Oplot.Its base armor may not be as good as latest Russian or NATO tanks,but it sure has one of the most highly efficient turret geometry but most importantly,it uses the Duplet ERA panels that use linear shaped charges (unlike conventional ERA like the Kontact 5 or Relict) which can virtually obliterate the most potent kinetic energy penetrators like the latest DM 53/63,M 829A2 and the M338,rendering this tank virtually immune to all presently available KE or SC rounds!!

But after pointing out all its strengths,it also has got some very serious glaring weak points without their mention it would be a rather biased representation of this system.The weak points include a badly designed hull (common to all eastern block tanks),unarmored gun mantlet mask,an exposed roof from front but most dangerous of them all being its ammunition storage......even more than the T 90s.
Because unlike the AZ series autoloaders in T 90s,where ammunitions and propelant charges are stored in horizontal positions close to the hull floor and thus difficult to hit with anti tank guns or ATGMs (but more vulnerable to anti tank mines),in case of T 84's autoloaders,the propelant charges are stored in vertical positions.Coupled with lack of heavy ballistic skarts,it makes the charges vulnerable to flanking attacks through the unprotected hull sides.

My personal favourite is the M1A2 SEPV2 with the DU armor aka HAP (heavy armor package).It is the most well designed tank presently in service anywhere in the world.If I'm presented with a choice,I'd definitely choose this thing to fight in;not a Leopard,not a Challenger 2 and not the Arjun or any other tank.

 

[Omega007]

Good post but some things are off the mark,

composite blocks are easy to replace, yes they have gaps for bolts etc but is minimum, not even noticable at times, Tanks that follow this method is Altay, T-90, OPLOT, T-80ud, AK and few others.

About the gun, its 48 cal yes, but the electroslag remelting steel coupled with autofrettaged process, allows for a much powerful gun than a 2a46Mseries, till last year, metal blanks were imported form France. Ukraine follow the same route for KBA-3 series, in fact, the only similarity these guns have with a 2a46 design is dimenions and 125mm caliber. Besides, the gun is proved repeatedly in exercises as more powerful than KBA-3.

AK has high hardened steel plates on roof and sides, layers, can be added with ERA if needed. What more do you want.

Almost all sources quoted front LOS of AK wrong, simply because none of them know the exact thickness, militarysta measured it at 660mm, Andrei measured 640, some say it is 680mm. No definite figure, i measured the thing back at IDEAS 2008 at 720mm.all of them without ERA plates. BUT, no final wold.
Arjun also do not have blow off panels as of yet, the only tank that has it in true sense is M1Axx series. However, AK has a very advanced FCS and network centric system in operation which has no perils in the region as of now.

The gaps for bolts are not that big a issue,I agree totally.But that's not the point here boss.The point is,a solid semi modular structure will always enjoy a significantly higher amount of structural strength vis-a-vis a fully modular one.It's just simple law of physics!!The Israelis paid dearly with their Merkava MkIVs for their over reliance on modularity.There's is a reason the major western tank builders like the US or the Germans held on to their semi modular approach.But in the end,it all boils down to operational requirements and doctrines.

About the gun barrels,to be frank,both electroslag remelting and autofrettagation process has been standard for quite some times.Nothing extraordinary.

80mm of hardened steel coupled with the light ERA currently available to Pakistan is not at all enough of a protection even against RPG 7VRs.Look at all the Russian,Ukrainian or the NATO tanks - all of them have composite armor cover throughout the frontal 60 degree ark in one form or the other,although the western approach is more well suited.
Even the Indians now have seemed to realised the problem with Arjun MkI side turret protection (in MkI it was about 45 degree) and has tried to rectify this (at least to a certain extent) by adding add on composite armor blocks and heavy ERA cover on the turret sides.Similar measures should be taken for AK.

As for the front turret LOS thickness,640mm and 660mm isn't that much big of a difference,now is it??Besides,I would take the words of Andreij since he has got quite a good connection with KMDB people and KMDB engineers did some work on your AK if my memory serves me correct.

And Arjun do have blow off panels and sealed ammunition compartments,just google for a top view of Arjun's turret and you will be able to see them.Don't take my words for it,you have the power of internet with you,use it to your advantage.
In fact,in Defexpo 2014,DRDO had published a photo showing a cooked-off ammo compartment and exhaustion of burning propelant gases through the blow-out panels on the turret roof.Search for it in D F I.

 

[Omega007]

Oh and @Dazzler,the FCS on the Arjun MkII isn't really the french Savan 15.It's a local system developed by BEL and manufactured under tot by Tata electronics.A different version of this FCS has been installed in the Indian T 90S replacing the original Russian supplied system since it had been frequently malfunctioning under the desert heats.
Damian got it confused with tye Savan due to its outward similar looks.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

He's not totally off the mark now,is he??

Sure .. sure.. whatever you say boss... you guys are supreme authority when it comes to weapon systems...






sarcasm,

 

[Slav Defence]

Stop wasting your time on this shit.It's the same dazzler idiot from D F I who gets his arse owned all the time there due to his nonsense trash talks.

Negatively rated for personal offense.

 

[Omega007]

Sure .. sure.. whatever you say boss... you guys are supreme authority when it comes to weapon systems...






sarcasm,

Yeah,I can see that boss.No one is saying is your AK is a bad tank or as such.So please don't get hyper Mr Nationalist.

Just read the few of the above posts.In some fields,AK has got clear advantage over Arjun -
1.More compact and lighter engine and transmission assembly.

2.Better mobility.
3.Better placement of sensors.
4.Better firepower resulting from more modern Naiza DU ammunition.Hopefully,with the advent of the new quad segmented long rod FSAPDS round,we would be able to somewhat balance the equation.

But it also has got some disadvantages too.We were merely trying to point them out.Doesn't mean we are calling it a junk or something because it isn't.

By the way,AK variants aren't the most dangerous tank in Pakistani inventory,it's actually those ~380 odd T 80UDs
(Ob'yekt
478B ).

Negatively rated for personal offense.

And I definitely deserved that.It was a knee-jerk reaction on my part which was very silly and untrue and which I'm ashamed of.I would never do it again.Could you somehow delete that post??

 

[Slav Defence]

Yeah,I can see that boss.No one is saying is your AK is a bad tank or as such.So please don't get hyper Mr Nationalist.

Just read the few of the above posts.In some fields,AK has got clear advantage over Arjun -
1.More compact and lighter engine and transmission assembly.

2.Better mobility.
3.Better placement of sensors.
4.Better firepower resulting from more modern Naiza DU ammunition.Hopefully,with the advent of the new quad segmented long rod FSAPDS round,we would be able to somewhat balance the equation.

But it also has got some disadvantages too.We were merely trying to point them out.Doesn't mean we are calling it a junk or something because it isn't.

By the way,AK variants aren't the most dangerous tank in Pakistani inventory,it's actually those ~380 odd T 80UDs
(Ob'yekt
478B ).





And I definitely deserved that.It was a knee-jerk reaction on my part which was very silly and untrue and which I'm ashamed of.I would never do it again.Could you somehow delete that post??

You edit it.I will take my rating back.I promise.