Arjun-II MBT development l Updates & discussion.

[Omega007]

That's right mate.You must give the credit where its due,I always have the respect for Al Khalid,though its just a plane Chinese tank with Pakistan Green Paint and Ukrainian Engine but that doesn't make it invincible as it has gaps,a lot of gaps in protection,it still uses the T72 Auto loader which something PA should be worried about.Similarly Arjun Mk2 has gaps in protection too like why the placed Radar in Left side leaving tank Venerable.

Indeed Arjun has got some serious gaps when it comes to mounting of add on armor modules on the right side of front turret (not the left).The decision of mounting a BFSR was an ingenious one,but chose the worst area possible as the mounting place.It's prohibiting them from mounting ERA and also leaving the BFSR vulnerable to front attacks!! They should've placed it on the turret roof on a retractable mount in the bustle area,that would've been the ideal place,hope they rectify this serious design flaw sooner than later.

But after saying all this things,I was talking about the base armor protection of Arjun tanks,not about the add ons.In terms of base armor protection,Arjun has got a clear and decisive advantage over AK.
If we are to believe the words of Andrey Tarashenko from KMDB,the los of front turret base armor of AK 1 is no greater than 620mm at 0 degree,where as for Arjun it's close to about ~950mm.
Besides,the AK uses totally modular armor blocks on the front turret.Now it has got the advantage of quick changing of damaged modules but it comes at a price,a totally modular armor won't give you as much protection,especially against repeated attacks as would a solid semi modular structure provide.The Israelis felt it very badly with their Merkava Mk4s.And besides another problem with modular armor package is that you have to leave some gaps in the armor as places for mounting bolts and thus the amount of composite material you can stuff into has to be reduced.That's why you will see most of the premium tank building nations including USA and Germany sticking to semi modular construction rather than going for all out modularity.

Besides,AK doesn't have composite armor on the turret sides,where as the crew compartment of Arjun has side protection with 400mm base armor.

AK don't have isolated ammunition compartments,it lacks ballistic skirts.It's frontal hull protection is also poor compared to Arjun.

The gun on AK isn't really better either since they are still using the old L/48 2A46!!

Yet somehow our Arjun becomes "Arjunk" and the AK becomes the "Wounder waffe"!!I wonder how.

 

[GORKHALI]

Stop wasting your time on this shit.It's the same dazzler idiot from D F I who gets his arse owned all the time there due to his nonsense trash talks.

And @GORKHALI ,bro the GMS window is indeed a weak spot but such a grave one as it's made out to be.You see,the LOS thickness behind the GMS window is about 480-500 mm and not 380mm.Both Damian and Dejawolf made the same mistake while estimating the armor thickness because they based all their values on the Leopard 2A4.
The problem with this calculation is that while the LOS of frontal turret armor of the A4 is ~800mm at 0 degree from turret centerline axis,the same for Arjun MkI is ~950mm or so according to the measurements done by Kunal and Sayare in the Defexpo 14.

Now behind the GMS window,there is NO composite armor but a solid 480-500mm block of triple hardened steel-titanium alloy with a TE (thickness efficiency) of 1.6,meaning a 1 cm of that material would provide same level of protection as a 1.6 cm of RHA plate.So the actual protection value of the armor behind the GMS is pretty much comparable to the other sections of the front turret against FSAPDS penetrators (of course protection against shaped charge jets would be much lower).

Regarding the 120mm FSAPDS ammo,it was developed in the mid 80s and hasn't been changed ever since,of course it's inferior to the Naiza rounds.A quad segmented long rod FSAPDS penetrator is currently under development (presumably based on the Israeli M 338,but I don't know how true is that).

By the way,this thread is about Arjun MkII,I just don't understand why do people always have to bring in the Al Khalid into the discussion??To be fair,AK 1 is a mediocre tank with much more serious design drawbacks than Arjun.But that's not the topic of discussion here.

And lastly,I've noticed that the Indian members are generally much more quick and less adamant when it comes to accepting and criticizing the design flaws of Indian made hardware but same can not be told about our Pakistani counterparts.

Much of the Kanchan armour information is still classified,and If IA wants all its tanks to get upgarded to Kanchan Armour,there must be something good about it else IA never going to accept anything so easily.

 

[Omega007]

Much of the Kanchan armour information is still classified,and If IA wants all its tanks to get upgarded to Kanchan Armour,there must be something good about it else IA never going to accept anything so easily.

Exactly.We know virtually nothing about the Kanchan and how it has evolved through out all these years.
By the way,as per information available to me,the Indian manufactured T 90S has got higher ground pressure from the Russian supplied ones.May be this means that some sort of heavy materials has been included the Kanchan armor arrays.

 

[Gessler]

Speaking of armor, not sure if this was mentioned before in this forum -

Exactly.We know virtually nothing about the Kanchan and how it has evolved through out all these years.
By the way,as per information available to me,the Indian manufactured T 90S has got higher ground pressure from the Russian supplied ones.May be this means that some sort of heavy materials has been included the Kanchan armor arrays.

Indian T-90 with Kanchan is said to be the heaviest version of T-90 in the world?

 

[Omega007]

Speaking of armor, not sure if this was mentioned before in this forum -

Indian T-90 with Kanchan is said to be the heaviest version of T-90 in the world?

So I hear.By the way,when it comes to hull design and protection,Arjun scores above most other tanks;dwarfed only by the M1 Abrams.I thought it's worth mentioning.

 

[Nitin Saini]

Arjun is good enough for india, we support and more it improves..
Army still keeps this attitude, we will remain dependent on imports...Top brass in army, seems too keen on filling their pockets by means of def deals then really concerned about indian defence in long run. why wasn't T90 tested on thar deserts? In war losses are reality, if we have a indigenous machine we will be able to recover our loses much quicker and take any action without fear of military supplier sanctions. even T90 and Su30 are dependent on russian in one way or another, we never recieved 100 TOT for them.
Lesson from history: Soviets and Americans didn't defeated germans in WW2 by quality but by quantity and how much production they could do, they were able to produce 1000's in days to 100's in germany..might be such wars are not wars of future but indigenous production is one which is only savior more u produce yourself, better product u produce next time, haven't we improved on navy ships??

 

[Bhasad Singh Mundi]

Arjun is good enough for india, we support and more it improves..
Army still keeps this attitude, we will remain dependent on imports...Top brass in army, seems too keen on filling their pockets by means of def deals then really concerned about indian defence in long run. why wasn't T90 tested on thar deserts? In war losses are reality, if we have a indigenous machine we will be able to recover our loses much quicker and take any action without fear of military supplier sanctions. even T90 and Su30 are dependent on russian in one way or another, we never recieved 100 TOT for them.
Lesson from history: Soviets and Americans didn't defeated germans in WW2 by quality but by quantity and how much production they could do, they were able to produce 1000's in days to 100's in germany..might be such wars are not wars of future but indigenous production is one which is only savior more u produce yourself, better product u produce next time, haven't we improved on navy ships??

TATRA TATRA...VKS spoiled suhags and bikrams party.

 

[Mr.S.Singh]

actually the army is pissed, DRDO is at fault
I had a discussion wih one of retired army officer he made the following point

All MBT's are carried by rail, blood Arjun doesn't fit in one ..... He said operation requirements were given to DRDO, then what made them breach them is questionable

to induct arjun, they have to change their doctrine, arjun don't fit in transporters, new railway bogies have to be made, he said it is so wide, that it is risky to carry on a track where there are 2 trains coming and going simultaneously becuse distance between tracks are less

other than that he said it was a fine tank

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

That's right mate.You must give the credit where its due,I always have the respect for Al Khalid,though its just a plane Chinese tank with Pakistan Green Paint and Ukrainian Engine but that doesn't make it invincible as it has gaps,a lot of gaps in protection,it still uses the T72 Auto loader which something PA should be worried about.Similarly Arjun Mk2 has gaps in protection too like why the placed Radar in Left side leaving tank Venerable.

Sir you are very smart person ..

 

[Omega007]

Sir you are very smart person ..

He's not totally off the mark now,is he??

 

[indiatester]

actually the army is pissed, DRDO is at fault
I had a discussion wih one of retired army officer he made the following point

All MBT's are carried by rail, blood Arjun doesn't fit in one ..... He said operation requirements were given to DRDO, then what made them breach them is questionable

to induct arjun, they have to change their doctrine, arjun don't fit in transporters, new railway bogies have to be made, he said it is so wide, that it is risky to carry on a track where there are 2 trains coming and going simultaneously becuse distance between tracks are less

other than that he said it was a fine tank

This seems more like an excuse rather than an actual problem.
For example, the existing bogies have a standard width of 3.2 mtrs where as Arjun Tank is about 3.9 mtrs.
Given that there are a lot of oversized equipment that are taken across trains, Arjun Tank should not have a problem for being 0.7 mts wider than a standard width closed bogie.

 

[GORKHALI]

Sir you are very smart person ..

Thanks mate. Aap mahan ho..

actually the army is pissed, DRDO is at fault
I had a discussion wih one of retired army officer he made the following point

All MBT's are carried by rail, blood Arjun doesn't fit in one ..... He said operation requirements were given to DRDO, then what made them breach them is questionable

to induct arjun, they have to change their doctrine, arjun don't fit in transporters, new railway bogies have to be made, he said it is so wide, that it is risky to carry on a track where there are 2 trains coming and going simultaneously becuse distance between tracks are less

other than that he said it was a fine tank

Hmmm you sure you talking to an army officer.....? Do double check his claim.Somewhere in rajasthan

Arjun Carrying Wagon are 6 Axel

 

[Mr.S.Singh]

Thanks mate. Aap mahan ho..


Hmmm you sure you talking to an army officer.....? Do double check his claim.Somewhere in rajasthan
Arjun Carrying Wagon are 6 Axel

lol yes, retired army intelligence officer, he is studying with me in my university here in UK

there u go :p
Punjab canal bridges too fragile for Arjun tank - The Times of India
Plus 60 ton a tank, that means less tanks can be pulled per train

This seems more like an excuse rather than an actual problem.
For example, the existing bogies have a standard width of 3.2 mtrs where as Arjun Tank is about 3.9 mtrs.
Given that there are a lot of oversized equipment that are taken across trains, Arjun Tank should not have a problem for being 0.7 mts wider than a standard width closed bogie.

its not about excuses, its more about operational requirement, when the drdo was given some bloody specifications, where they sleeping over it ?

 

[indiatester]

lol yes, retired army intelligence officer, he is studying with me in my university here in UK

there u go :p
Punjab canal bridges too fragile for Arjun tank - The Times of India
Plus 60 ton a tank, that means less tanks can be pulled per train


its not about excuses, its more about operational requirement, when the drdo was given some bloody specifications, where they sleeping over it ?

Do I have to start digging mud over IA's failures in various areas? Even in this tank endeavor, why was the army not involved during the design and implementation phases.
The thing is every body falls short at some area or the other. In this case DRDO was not able to meet all the requirements. That does not mean that you throw the baby out with the bath water.
Every body including the Army has to work within the resources that they have access to. I have heard our IA chief say that they will fight with what they have. Arjun is one decent offering they have and they must prefer it over external products. However nobody is asking them to stop asking for improvements.
Anyway topic has been beaten to death by experts even on this forum. I am only ending up adding more noise from one side. I'll back off from further replies.

 

[Bhasad Singh Mundi]

lol yes, retired army intelligence officer, he is studying with me in my university here in UK

there u go :p
Punjab canal bridges too fragile for Arjun tank - The Times of India
Plus 60 ton a tank, that means less tanks can be pulled per train


its not about excuses, its more about operational requirement, when the drdo was given some bloody specifications, where they sleeping over it ?

what operational requirement? Did IA test t90s in India to check whether it fulfills their operational requirement? testing was done in russia and after induction T90s were not able to bear the heat of rajasthan desert. operational requirements only come into play for indigenous products. For faren products, its always induct first and we will see.

IA generals say arjun is heavy and at the same time ask for modifications to it that will further increase its weight.