Arguments of choosing JF-17 Thunder over JAS-39 Gripen

[Armstrong]

Is the above true @Oscar @Najam Khan ?

 

[Manticore]

Gripen is 254 meters per second....Please correct your data.

Please specify which grippen you are talking about--ive clearly mentioned gripenD and if you dont know why gripenD's climb rate is lower than C's, then I shouldnt really waste more time here -- the figures/sources used in my chart have not been challenged even on international western fora so i am taken aback why you are hell bent on defaming jft all the time

please dont reply to this post

 

[Argus Panoptes]

Please specify which grippen you are talking about--ive clearly mentioned gripenD and if you dont know why gripenD's climb rate is lower than C's, then I shouldnt really waste more time here -- the figures/sources used in my chart have not been challenged even on international western fora so i am taken aback why you are hell bent on defaming jft all the time

please dont reply to this post

Sir, I am not defaming any airplane or any forum. I am merely correcting information.

There is NO way aircraft with such comparable weights and thrusts can have SUCH a difference in the climb rates. One cannot defy physics.

The difference in the quoted figures is very likely due to different measuring conditions. The maximum climb rates are comparable at 250 vs 254 meters per second. The sustained climb rates are much lower, in the 5000 meter per minute range for both types.

 

[SQ8]

Sir, I am not defaming any airplane or any forum. I am merely correcting information.

There is NO way aircraft with such comparable weights and thrusts can have SUCH a difference in the climb rates. One cannot defy physics.

The difference in the quoted figures is very likely due to different measuring conditions. The maximum climb rates are comparable at 250 vs 254 meters per second. The sustained climb rates are much lower, in the 5000 meter per minute range for both types.

It would be good if you post your reference for the figures. Like from SAAB's brochure or otherwise. Otherwise its a fruitless debate and nothing correct will come out.

 

[Argus Panoptes]

It would be good if you post your reference for the figures. Like from SAAB's brochure or otherwise. Otherwise its a fruitless debate and nothing correct will come out.

I have found the reason for the discrepancy Sir. The figure for the JF-17 that has been quoted is the maximum climb rate, but the figure quoted for the Gripen is the sustained climb rate. An apples to oranges comparison.

Physics is physics, Sir.

 

[SQ8]

I have found the reason for the discrepancy Sir. The figure for the JF-17 that has been quoted is the maximum climb rate, but the figure quoted for the Gripen is the sustained climb rate. An apples to oranges comparison.

Physics is physics, Sir.

Not exactly.. since one needs to look at climb rates to see which one is what.


Also, there is a misconception about T/W ratio.. that is.. it is a Thrust to weight ratio.. not a thrust to weight+drag ratio..
T/W ratio is calculated at sea level.. so a T/W ratio unity at sea level is not a T/W Ratio of unity at 5000 feet and at 350 knots... drag makes a lot of difference. So while the English electric lightening essentially has a T/W ratio of 0.78... it managed a similar climb rate(some reports say better) during the initial climb rate of 50000ft/m which is pretty similar to the F-15 eagle with its much higher T/W. Considering that drag is also something that effects aircraft... Its really up to either an official figure.. or some over eager engineer to come up with climb performance calculation for the JF-17.
That being said, If one wants to know the JF-17.. the F-20 is really a good place to start.

P.S.. I also realized why the JF-17 is limited to 8g .. which is only due to the cost saving construction and not aerodynamics as I had thought. Apparently, it can do 9g.. but then there would be a lot of strained metal and a crew chief worried about the next flight tearing the wings off. Sometimes, the honeycomb strength helps.. and plain old sheet metal bolted over spars isnt the best solution.

 

[Argus Panoptes]

Not exactly.. since one needs to look at climb rates to see which one is what.


Also, there is a misconception about T/W ratio.. that is.. it is a Thrust to weight ratio.. not a thrust to weight+drag ratio..
T/W ratio is calculated at sea level.. so a T/W ratio unity at sea level is not a T/W Ratio of unity at 5000 feet and at 350 knots... drag makes a lot of difference. So while the English electric lightening essentially has a T/W ratio of 0.78... it managed a similar climb rate(some reports say better) during the initial climb rate of 50000ft/m which is pretty similar to the F-15 eagle with its much higher T/W. Considering that drag is also something that effects aircraft... Its really up to either an official figure.. or some over eager engineer to come up with climb performance calculation for the JF-17.
That being said, If one wants to know the JF-17.. the F-20 is really a good place to start.

P.S.. I also realized why the JF-17 is limited to 8g .. which is only due to the cost saving construction and not aerodynamics as I had thought. Apparently, it can do 9g.. but then there would be a lot of strained metal and a crew chief worried about the next flight tearing the wings off. Sometimes, the honeycomb strength helps.. and plain old sheet metal bolted over spars isnt the best solution.

Yes Sir, I am aware of the variables affecting climb rate performance. I am quite sure that my explanation for the discrepancy is correct, that the maximum climb rates at MSL are 250 vs 254 m/sec and the sustained climb rates to 15,000 meters are about 91 vs 92 m/sec for the JF-17 and Gripen respectively.

If anyone is interested, this PDF file has some good information about climb performance of aircraft in general:

http://www.aviation.org.uk/docs/flighttest.navair.navy.milunrestricted-FTM108/c7.pdf

Your last point about the construction of the JF-17 is well known also. That is why some say regard the JF-17 as a giant leap for PAF surely, but only from the fifties into the seventies.

 

[Argus Panoptes]

@Aeronaut @Oscar @ANTIBODY

I hope that you have had the chance of reading the PDF file I linked and now can see what I am trying to say.

After all, the world record for the maximum climb rate is 330 m/s and even that record holding airplane has a sustained climb rate of 110 m/sec. The JF-17 is a great airplane, but it is not exempt from rules of Physics.

 

[Argus Panoptes]

The silence is quite amusing!

 

[SQ8]

The silence is quite amusing!

Or people are simply busy elsewhere.. not everything revolves around a single post or subject.
Also I am not exactly sure what was proved or disproved which you find amusing for your own benefit?

 

[Argus Panoptes]

Or people are simply busy elsewhere.. not everything revolves around a single post or subject.
Also I am not exactly sure what was proved or disproved which you find amusing for your own benefit?

What was proved that the quoted figure of 250 m/s for the JF-17 is only the peak rate achieved under ideal conditions, and that its sustained climb rate performance is about on par with the Gripen at around 90 m/s.

But hey, since that claim was unchallenged until now, lets us go on assuming it is correct. That is amusing. That is all.

 

[SQ8]

What was proved that the quoted figure of 250 m/s for the JF-17 is only the peak rate achieved under ideal conditions, and that its sustained climb rate performance is about on par with the Gripen at around 90 m/s.

But hey, since that claim was unchallenged until now, lets us go on assuming it is correct. That is amusing. That is all.

I still dont see the amusing part in that other than published data has been interpreted more accurately.. but to each their own weird glee.

 

[Argus Panoptes]

I still dont see the amusing part in that other than published data has been interpreted more accurately.. but to each their own weird glee.

The amusement lies in ignoring the more accurate interruption by those who should stand corrected. Anyway, enough about this. Over and out.

 

[rockstar08]

Gripen At Farnborough 2014
18 Jul 2014
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Farnborough International Airshow has just taken place and Saab was of course there.

This year, Saab’s presence was all about breaking the thought barrier- demonstrating Saab’s unique way of thinking, one that pushes the boundaries of innovation and anticipates tomorrow. As part of this, Saab has demonstrated its capabilities for air defence, with Gripen in the forefront.

During Farnborough, Saab has for the first time ever, unveiled a full scale replica of Gripen NG.

During the exhibition, Executive Vice President Lennart Sindahl held a Gripen press briefing. You can watch the press briefing here.

In the video below, Gripen Test Pilot Richard Ljungberg, standing beside the full-scale replica of Gripen NG, talks about the MBDA Meteor missile which he says is a gamechanger for a fighter. Meteor will be in Swedish Air Force service next year.

Read more about Saab at Farnborough 2014 here.

Tags: Gripen Aircraft, Gripen, Farnborough International Airshow, Gripen E/F, Gripen Fighter, Gripen NG
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This Year's Top Stories So Far: Hungary To Prepare Gripen Fleet For Close Air Support
18 Jul 2014
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GRIPEN, GRIPEN AIR FORCES, GRIPEN C/D, FEATURED
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The Hungarian government announced this year that it would allocate 2.8 billion forints to prepare the Gripen unit for close air support, reports Politics.hu.

The ministry’s ten-year army development concept aims at “developing the operational capability of the armed forces’ most modern arms system,” said a Defence Ministry statement.

“By ensuring the allocation for close air support, the government will considerably improve the armed forces’ defence capabilities within a short period of time, and at the same time demonstrate Hungary’s commitment towards its Visegrad Four partners (Czech Republic, Poland and Slovakia)," the statement says.

Read the full story: Govt allocates HUF 2.8 billion to prepare Gripen fleet for close air support

Tags: Gripen, Gripen Aircraft, Gripen C/D, Gripen Fighter, JAS 39 Gripen
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This Year's Top Stories So Far: Gripen E's New Design
17 Jul 2014
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For an untrainded eye, Gripen E might look similar to Gripen C externally, but a closer look at its detailed design says that it will have many enhanced capabilities and will beat the development and operational cost performance of the latter, says Flightglobal.

According to the report, Gripen E will not retain any of Gripen C/D’s airframe but will reuse parts of its fuel and air systems, plus its ejection seat, windshield, canopy and outer wing elevons.

Gripen E will have five through-fuselage, aluminium-lithium frames at the heart of its structure, which will support its airframe through to its inner-wing weapons pylons. Its tail section has been redesigned to accommodate the General Electric F414G-39E turbofan engine, and a new intake has been added at the base of the tail for a second environmental control system, which is needed to cool its Selex ES Raven ES-05 active electronically scanned array radar and electronic warfare equipment.

The Gripen’s air intake design has also been enlarged, and new landing gear installed. The latter includes a larger, single nose wheel and main gear which retracts into the wing, freeing fuselage space and enabling a 40% increase in internal fuel capacity. Two additional weapon stations have also been introduced beneath the fuselage.

Lennart Sindahl, Senior Executive Vice President and Head of Business Area Aeronautics at Saab vouches for the Gripen E’s sensor configuration which includes the Selex Skyward-G infrared search and track (IRST) turret and an advanced interrogation friend-or-foe suite.

“It will be ...

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Tags: Gripen, Gripen Aircraft, Gripen E/F, Gripen Fighter, Gripen NG
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ETPS Extends Its Gripen Contract
16 Jul 2014
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GRIPEN, GRIPEN C/D, IN FOCUS, TOP GUNS
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UK’s Empire Test Pilots’ School (ETPS) has extended its contract with Saab to continue its use of a Gripen trainer for another four years.

“The original agreement has been in place since 1999 and, under the terms of the new framework, Saab will support ETPS from 2015 until 2018,” Saab says.

More than 70 test pilots have flown the type since the service with ETPS began, adds Saab, which cites a “100% on-time delivery”. More than 800 flying hours have been provided so far, from its Linköping site in Sweden.

For the last 15 years, ETPS has operated Gripen as its advanced fast jet platform for test pilots throughout the world. With the inclusion of Gripen in their test pilot training courses, ETPS students get an opportunity to know about advanced cockpit technology and learn systems integration more effectively and on the latest platforms.

ETPS is run as a partnership between the UK Ministry of Defence (MoD) and defence contractor QinetiQ, Europe’s largest science and technology solutions company. The School provides the UK MoD with fully qualified military test pilots and it also trains flight test engineers for QinetiQ, along with test pilots and engineers from Commonwealth and other friendly nations.

Read the full story:Saab And ETPS Sign New Multi-Year Agreement For Continued Gripen Training

Tags: Gripen, Gripen Aircraft, Gripen C/D, Gripen Fighter, JAS 39 Gripen
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This Year's Top Stories So Far: New Improved Sensors For The Gripen E
16 Jul 2014
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The new generation Gripen will be equipped with sensors that can detect low-radar-cross-section (RCS) targets, and will provide the pilots in a Gripen formation with a new level of situational awareness, says Bob Mason, Selex-ES marketing director for advanced sensors.

According to a report in the Aviation Week, Gripen E will have three Selex-ES sensors and a new identification friend-or-foe (IFF) system with three electronically steerable antenna arrays, which matches the radar's range and field of view.

Mason describes that the IRST is capable of detecting low-RCS targets at distances compatible with a beyond-visual-range missile launch. Confirming that the Selex IRSTs have tracked low-RCS targets, he says, “We have seen them.”

The report adds that Selex IRSTs have undergone a lot of changes, the most important one is the development of algorithms, based on operational experience and the analysis of real-world imagery, that look at IR signatures in detail, including variations of color and brightness within the target, in order to filter out false alarms caused by everything from birds to barbecue grills.

“The IRST can give the radar a very accurate azimuth and elevation to the target, which allows it to focus its energy and increase the probability of achieving detection and track on a low-RCS target,” Mason says.

Read the full story: Gripen Sensors Claim Counter-Stealth Performance

Read more about the AESA Radar here.

Tags: Gripen, Gripen Aircraft, Gripen E/F, Gripen Fighter, Gripen NG
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This Year's Top Stories So Far: Gripen E – All According To The Plan
15 Jul 2014
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Production of the new Gripen is done primarily in Linköping and work is already in full swing. Test flights, where critical subsystems and their interoperability are tested to minimise risk, are already well underway. First delivery is planned for 2018. As previously reported, development is proceeding according to plan and contracts have been signed with all major subcontractors.

One of our engineers tells her story.
Tags: Gripen, Gripen Aircraft, Gripen E/F, Gripen NG, Gripen Fighter
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This Year's Top Stories So Far: Saab Successfully Completes Flight Test With IRST For Gripen E
14 Jul 2014
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Saab successfully performed the first flight with the new sensor IRST (Infra Red Search and Track) which will feature in Gripen E, according to schedule this year. The IRST does not emit a signal and can, without revealing the aircraft’s own position, silently detect, track and identify all types of targets.

The IRST for Gripen E is produced by Selex in Scotland and is called Skyward G. It is a passive sensor: it does not emit any energy but only listens for energy coming from other sources.

“The first flight in the Gripen E test aircraft with IRST has been performed with very good results. Multiple targets were detected, tracked and identified and the system works perfectly as expected. IRST is a new sensor on Gripen, which allows pilots to see great distances in several directions,” says Saab’s Wing Commander Flying Hans Einerth.

Read the full story here.

Image Courtesy: Stefan Kalm

Tags: Gripen, Gripen Aircraft, Gripen E/F, Gripen Fighter, Gripen NG
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This Year's Top Stories So Far: Saab To Come Up With Upgrade Options For Gripen C/D
11 Jul 2014
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Saab plans to continue developing new systems to offer the existing Gripen operators options to enhance Gripen C/D's capabilities, reports IHS Jane's.

"We will continue to develop systems, such as the PS-05/A radar, to improve capability and to satisfy future customer needs. The current international Gripen users will be operating the C/D long after Sweden has moved on to the Gripen E and we need to look after them," says Lennart Sindahl, Senior Executive Vice President and Head of Business Area Aeronautics at Saab.

According to the IHS Jane’s report, the Swedish Air Force will soon be upgrading its JAS 39 Gripen C/D fleet with the MS 20 block upgrade, which will be the last before the Gripen E begins to enter service from 2018. The upgradation process includes integration of the MBDA Meteor beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile and Boeing GBU-39 Small-Diameter Bomb; improved radar modes; a digital close air support capability; increased Link 16 connectivity; civil navigation enhancements; chemical, biological, radiological, and nuclear (CBRN) protection for the pilot; night-capable operations using the SPK 39 Modular Reconnaissance Pod II; and a ground collision avoidance system (GCAS).

Sindahl said that MS 20 was last planned for the Gripen C/D and the new Gripen E will be of MS 21 standard. Therefore, the additional Gripen C/D upgrades in future may be classified as MS 20++ or something like that.

Read the full report: Saab to offer Gripen C/D upgrades, pushes exports

Tags: Gripen, Gripen Aircraft, Gripen C/D, Gripen Fighter, JAS 39 Gripen
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Saab CEO Hakan Buskhe Media Briefing At Farnborough
10 Jul 2014
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Saab is all geared up to showcase its next-generation Gripen programme, multi-faceted airborne surveillance and ISR capabilities, and the revolutionary Remote Tower system at Farnborough 2014.

Starting 14 July, Saab will host media briefings from Monday to Thursday at Farnborough.

On Monday, Saab President and CEO Håkan Buskhe will deliver a presentation on the new era for Saab, with insight on programmes, strategies and markets.

The next day, media members can interact with Lennart Sindahl, head of Saab Aeronautics, who would provide the latest on the next-generation Gripen programme, including a glimpse of Gripen’s future evolution.

One of Saab’s highlights at the event is a new full-scale replica of the Gripen E, to be showcased alongside a Gripen cockpit simulator at the company’s main stand in Hall 4, E5.

To know more about Saab media event, click here.

Tags: Gripen, Gripen Aircraft, Gripen E/F, Gripen Fighter, Gripen NG, Farnborough International Airshow
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This Year's Top Stories So Far: Gripen - Always Ready For The Challenges Of Future
10 Jul 2014
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Recently, aviation magazine AFM took a closer look at the history of Gripen and the factors that keep it ready to meet the future challenges. AFM paid a visit to the Saab development facility in Linköping and talked to Björn Johansson, the chief engineer on the Gripen E/F project about the technology that goes into the development of the new generation aircraft.

According to Björn, when the SwAF looked at potential future threats, it came up with a list of requirements for a new aircraft, including the need for extended range; increased weapons payload and more hardpoints; a MIL-STD 1760E Class 2 weapon pylon interface and further adaptation to modern standards; an upgraded sensor suite with active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar; improved communication and fighter link including satellite communications (SATCOM); an improved EW capability; a quick software-update capability; and a low life-cycle cost.

“The first thing we did was to find an engine that could do the job. It had to be powerful enough, cost effective, and reliable and fit in our existing airframe with reasonable modifications. We basically had two choices – the GE F414-400 or a modified RM 12. The choice fell on the F414, an existing and well proven engine (2.5 million-plus hours) with many of the safety features that were required on the RM 12 already implemented in the basic design. It has more thrust and approximately the same built-in centre of gravity [CoG] as the RM 12 in a similarly sized package. Some initial modifications were made to adapt ...

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Is there any chance for PAF to get gripen in near future ??
if yes than what are advantages of this Air craft , and will it be a good Plane to counter Rafale ?
and if not than why not ??
and what are disadvantages of Gripen ...

please dont make it a verses thread ....no trolls please

@Aeronaut @Munir @araz @Irfan Baloch @Akheilos @Chak Bamu @DESERT FIGHTER @Zarvan @Kaan @Manticore @Oscar @Aether @Spring Onion @AUz @Armstrong @Donatello @fatman17 @nomi007@dexter @RAMPAGE and more .......

 

[Kompromat]

Gripen NG is called the JF-17 Block - III in Pakistan.