Arguments of choosing JF-17 Thunder over JAS-39 Gripen

[Tempest II]

We have seen the JF-17/FC-1 tested along side the J-10B and J-20. Resources and learnings have been shared. The fact that the JF-17 is where it is in technology and capability is not because the Chinese cannot put more. I believe the desired cost on the plane is what is limiting what it comes with. I believe that is why on more than half of the slides by the chief designer, you had one or two extra “options” to beef up the capabilities AT EXTRA COSTS, i.e. the message is "the capabilities are there, but we are trying to tailor the machine to your pocket and requirements".

You have poor countries whose threats are Mig-21s and F-5s and the FC-1 is FIT FOR PURPOSE! … … Why are the medium tech products the best selling? Why do Toyota and Honda outsell the BMW, Merc, Lexus, etc?... … or Nokias and Blackberrys outselling Virtue … … and Seiko and Swatch doing well along side Rolex or Reymond Weil … … There is a difference between marketing and selling … … not everybody needs the Gripen … … likely WANT it … … but not NEED it!

Defence needs are dynamic and certainly what Pakistan need when they proposed the Super-7 is not exactly what they need today. The world and its threats have evolved so the JF-17 have evolved too.

So the Gripen has more comprehensive EMP protection, what is the likelihood that Sudan will need that. The Gripen is designed for at least 6,000 hours airframe life. South African Gripens are flying less than 50 hours per year = 120 years of life. That is a waste of money. Even if you double the flying hrs to 100 you still have 60 years of life. Why not have an OPTIMISED design for your needs, say 3,000 hours and the few frames that make it to 20 years, they go for rebuilds anyway.

If a third world country faces NATO or the USA, it does not matter if they have a squadron of FC-1, Gripens, Fulcrums, Flankers, Rafale or Eurofighters = they will all be looking for cover in deserts and jungles. You might actually be better off with FC-1 because for any of the Western fighters NATO/USA will have all the codes and performance data for your fighters.

Streatching my thinking a little bit ... ... this customisation strategy could be why Klimov's brochure gives a range for the maximum thrust on the RD-93. If the RD-93 was being offered in one version, then you would have one maximum thrust. So, they could also be offering a beefed up, more expensive 96kN RD-93 alongside the classic and economical 84kN one.

 

[MastanKhan]

This is one thing that is impressive about Pakistanis. Though finances might be a constraint but still you guys are fast in induction.

Sir,

If it was not for that and if your babu's were competent,we would not have a pot to pi-ss in by now.

I am a firm believer that there is someone on the indian side that does not let the differences grow too far apart---some one is intentionally putting a monkey wrench to slow down the process so the two stay closer to each other.

 

[Manticore]

 

[Manticore]

 

[Manticore]

Comparison side by side.

lets update the stats

SAAB JAS-39 "Gripen"
Aerospaceweb.org | Aircraft Museum - JAS 39 Gripen


*specs taken from dubai air show presentations and jf-17 brochures

*the conditions ,parameters under which climb rate / thrust to wt etc have been evaluated might not be standardised or fully disclosed

*All the values ive posted are from open published sources , so if there are confusions , its upto the companies to clear up

*..... however jft blk1 is not that obsolete as you suspect .. its better than gripenA & thats why i didnt use gripenA's specs.. I used a somewhat comparable block's specs

* we dont know the exact RCS of jft ... If jft was a canards fighters , some people wouldve jumped up and down saying it has greater rcs due to canards

* we dont know the wing loading of the fighter
[ a ground attack role fighter generally has a higher wing loading -
low wing loading is for performing at higher altitudes---multirole aircraft has to find a proper balance..]

*
[prominent lerx/strakes---> upto 50% increase in max lift , low/moderate swept wing---> better at lower speed performance , spin resistance etc ]

* methods of rcs reduction is a natural step forwards and hopefully would be employed in blk2 along with other gadgets we are reading about in the jft info pool

Source: Pakistan will soon get J10 | Page 24

 

[ziaulislam]

compare it with gripen C (forget gripen NG it will only happen if it gets an order) gripen c has smaller thrust and much more MTOW and carrying capacity , i think at the expense of range and T/W ratio

 

[Manticore]

Gripen in new trouble

New Gripen E / F may be scathing criticism of the Swiss Air Force after a test flight, according to leaks published in two Swiss newspapers. The Air Force's chief engineer called new Gripen fighters for "a dull knife," the documents show. According to Saab, the criticism totally wrong.

On Sunday published two Swiss newspapers, SonntagsZeitung and Le Matin Dimanche, information leaked from the Swiss Ministry of Defense and a sub-commission which is investigating the Gripen purchase. The leaks are so severe that Swiss parliamentary security committee is now suing the unknown person who leaked the information for violation of professional secrecy.

The leaks are for a test flight with the Gripen E / F demonstration plan that Swiss pilots did recently in Linköping, and discussions during the confidential session of the Commission.

The information was verified with three independent sources such as newspapers.

The test flight was apparently not what the pilots had expected, according to documents. Only seven of 98 improvements that Switzerland calls for the purchase of 22 planes for 3.1 billion Swiss francs has been made, it is stated.

The pilots were among other things, disappointed that the new Gripen does not achieve the expected speed. The plane can fly at Mach 2, which means that they fly twice as fast as the speed of sound. But the pilot could not reach more than 1.34 Mach, according to documents.

It also notes that the plane did not have the promised new wings. The two new missiles AMRAAM and IRST installed on the plane was also only dummies, called it forth.


Also new on the upgraded Gripen aircraft is three additional fuel tanks with 1700 liters each. This is important for the Swiss who need the tanks for example, observation flights during the summit in Davos. Here, said the Swiss pilots have been disappointed in Linköping. The Swiss delegation had wanted to try out ideas, but Saab The people refused, with three external tanks plane had slowed too much, said the newspaper source.

In a quote from the informant summarized the criticism: It's like test driving a new car, but the dealer says you can not run more than 80 km / h, not to take too tight curves, and to get the new radio with gps you have to wait for six years.

At meetings of the Parliamentary Sub-commission-like noises have been heard, according to the leaked documents. Chief engineer of the Swiss Air Force, invited Mr Gore, has not saved any punches when he spoke before the Commission.

- Gripen performance, including the upgraded E / F-plane, is very moderate. Kind of like a dull knife that will not cut well. The knife might cut off a piece of string, but it is thicker it becomes difficult to manage, according to Air Force chief engineer.


Gore has also expressed concern that 70 percent of the components of the upgraded Gripen aircraft is new, and that there might be misconstructions during production that can increase the cost and delay plane. According to current planning the Gripen planes will be delivered to Switzerland 2018th But in terms of today's rhythm risk Saab to postpone delivery of Gripen E / F 2020 or 2023, Gore has told the Commission, according to the leaked reports.

At Saab rejected tasks powerful. They sent two people to Switzerland this week to talk to reporters in Bern after the leaks, which shows that the publication was loaded.

- There is absolutely no truth content of this information. Most of the facts is incorrect. Take, for example speed. We have flown this plane very close to Mach 2, but the Swiss pilot did not reach higher than 1.34 Mach. He did not want to fly faster, says Eddy de la Motta, head of the Gripen Export to SvD Business.


Nor is it surprising that the missiles were mounted on the plane because the only flight characteristics were tested using what is not sharp robots without dummies capture the geometry and weight, according to de la Motta. The new wing will also later look basically the same. And the pilots did not want to try the fuel tanks, it is also wrong.

-It is claimed that only seven of 98 required improvements. It is totally wrong. We have fixed 93 percent of requirements. Some are already present Gripen C / D level, otherwise during testing. We are prepared to deliver the plan, four years after the contract has been signed, says de la Motta.

Two completely different versions that is. If so much is wrong, why are you taking no action against the newspapers?

-No, probably do not we do it.

How do you interpret these negative data distributed?

-It is not uncommon that, this is happening, especially when you are good to deal with, says de la Motta who do not believe that this has any effect on the deal with Switzerland.

Some argue that there are interests in Switzerland who wants to Gripen in a bad light to get the country to refrain from buying new fighter aircraft, or to convince the military to buy French Rafale instead. There are always games behind the scenes on major arms deals, and it's hard to say how the latest leaks fit this game.


Thomas Hurter, ordförand e parliamentary sub-commission investigating the government's selection of Gripen correctness, is moderately fond of the leaks.

-It does not help when this kind of information leaks. It is deeply troubling, and we do not know where the data comes. I'm going to investigate who leaked the secret information, said Thomas Hurter to SvD Business.

Does the data, such as that only seven of 98 required measures have been taken on the plane that test flight?

-I can not answer yes or no. We are finishing our investigation will be completed in a month, answers Hurter.

Swiss Defence Minister Ueli Maurer, however upheld its decision to purchase 22 Gripen aircraft, in spite of "those damn leaks" as he calls the acclaimed Journal of the data.

-Apparently there are people in my department who do not like the Gripen. I will examine the data, no smoke without fire. But it's Gripen or nothing, says defense minister.

Google Översätt

 

[nomi007]

I think fc-1 need ej-200 type engine
that's made fc-1 world class jet

 

[Nishan_101]

It would be more capable if PAC and CAC have used Composites, RD-93Bs, IFRP and FLIR(that can be jointly developed with Chinese) along with a dual seat till 2008, in the PT-6. Then it will be known as much more capable than JAS-39 in most ways.

 

[Thorough Pro]

This is what was quoted in the article I posted, airplane aside how does Chinese BVRAAM's compare to new types of missiles like Meteor? because if India picks the Eurofighter it will surely go for this once it has been inducted.

merely an opinion, isn't it?

 

[Manticore]

Swiss tests JAS-39Ds
" There was no sensor data fusion between the radar and EW suite "
http://kovy.free.fr/temp/rafale/pdf/12332.pdf

F-16 blk 60
"Data displayed on the TSD is from individual sensors, and is not the product of a sensor-fusion algorithm."
FLIGHT TEST: Lockheed Martin F-16E/F Block 60 - Bridging the gap

 

[Donatello]

PAF didn't choose JF-17, PAF MADE JF-17.

If PAF keeps investing, i see JF-17 pulling ahead of the Gripen in the next decade.

 

[shanixee]

The comparison shows that JF17 lacks very little behind JAS Grippen. just a little more investment in block 1 would hve made it a very capable fighter as compare to grippen.

 

[Beast]

http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.p...ng-term-storage&catid=35:Aerospace&Itemid=107

[Twelve of the South African Air Force’s 26 Gripen fighter jets are in long-term storage, according to defence minister Nosiviwe Mapisa-Nqakula, as the Air Force does not have the funding to fly them.

This emerged yesterday in reply to a parliamentary question posed by the opposition Democratic Alliance party’s Shadow Minister of Defence and Military Veterans David Maynier.

“The South African Air Force (SAAF) has 12 Gripen Fighter Aircraft placed in long-term storage. These aircraft are placed in a storage as a planned activity in line with their utilization and budget expenditure patterns/flow of SAAF,” Mapisa-Nqakula said.

“The Gripen fighter jets are supposed to provide the air combat capability for the South African Air Force (SAAF). However, the Gripen fighter jets are effectively grounded because the operating budget has been stripped to the bone and the SAAF cannot afford to operate the ‘Gripen system’,” Maynier said.

Already in 2010 there was great concern that a lack of money would ground the Gripen. Then-defence minister Lindiwe Sisulu warned that the Gripens could be mothballed if the military failed to get hold of extra funding. The Department of Defence annual report released in 2010 warned that “Combined with the recent funding cuts for the medium-term expenditure framework period, the air force will only be able to sustain the Hawk system.

“Without adequate funding levels being provided, the air force will not be able to meet its mandate in terms of defence or its support of government initiatives in the medium and longer term. The unwanted reality is portions of aircraft fleets may have to be placed in long-term storage, and certain capabilities, units or bases may have to be closed down.”

The lack of money for the Gripens has also affected flying hours and pilot training. In April 2011 then-chief of the Air Force Lieutenant General Carlo Gagiano said the Air Force was not going to fly the required number of hours due to a lack of funding and in its 2010/2011 report, the Department of Defence said that due to underfunding, the number of flight hours per Gripen aircrew member was reduced from 224 to 110 per year.

At present the SAAF can only muster six qualified Gripen pilots who only have 150 flying hours available across the whole Gripen squadron this year, according to Maynier. The annual target for fighter flying hours was 250 for the 2011/2012 period, according to the Department of Defence’s most recent Annual Report.

Chief of the Air Force Lieutenant General Zakes Msimang when asked about Gripen flying hours earlier this year, said that the Air Force had never failed to deliver what was asked of it.

Defence analyst Helmoed-Römer Heitman noted the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation (NATO) requires fighter pilots to log at least 20 flight hours per month (240 flight hours per year per fighter pilot) to remain qualified.

“One of the biggest scandals of the Arms Deal is that we bought military equipment we could not afford to operate. And there is no better illustration of the point than the Gripen fighter jets in long-term storage,” Maynier said. “It is imperative that the Minister of Defence and Military Veterans, Nosiviwe Mapisa-Nqakula, reviews the allocation of the operating funding to the “Gripen system” in the SAAF.”

In 2007 it emerged that the Gripens cost R19.08 billion, up from the original R17.8 billion estimate for both 26 Gripens and 24 Hawks.

It is unlikely that the Gripen situation will improve anytime soon, as the defence budget for the 2013/14 financial year stands at R40.2 billion, just R1.8 billion more than the previous year’s.

South Africa bought 26 Gripens (17 single-seat Gripen Cs and nine two-seat Gripen Ds) as part of the Strategic Defence Procurement Package (in 2005 reduced to 26), becoming the Gripen’s first export customer. Deliveries concluded in September last year. The Gripens replaced the Cheetah fleet, which was withdrawn four years early due to funding constraints.

Still need any good reason why JF-17 is better than Gripen? I rather have 24 JF-17 patrolling the skies than 24 super wannabe claim ultra advances Gripen keep in storage...

South Africa Airforce and Royal Thai Airforce shall have go for JF-17. It's a pity that both of them made a terrible choice and paid the price.

 

[Manticore]

lets update the stats

SAAB JAS-39 "Gripen"
Aerospaceweb.org | Aircraft Museum - JAS 39 Gripen