Are you with us or with Qatar, Saudis ask Pakistan

[denel]

The best option is neutrality

absolutely... what i had meant was to stand up and say no. Gulfies are bad news ....

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Wrong! unlike you I do not see Muslims through saudi - wahabi sectarian sunglass. I see Mulims with core values. Now if you want to express saudi extremist view and propagate what house of saud wishes, you will find yourself in isolated group. Even without overlay of religion, simply on human term massive killing by saudis in Yemen is just barbaric. You calling Saudi led mass killing in Yemen "ok", shows where your mindset belongs.



That means saudis are screwed for now and for long term. Trump already left saudis in the middle of the road with loss of face in front of whole world. Yet, you still chest thumping. It is just comical now.

Mashallah full of passion but missing the obvious
good post nonetheless bless you and be good

Brother after my background and what I have gone through I would like nothing more than not only India being put in its place but disappearing completely from the world map as it is technically an oppressor. However I do have to point out, as a responsible individual without biases that remittances from the gulf are a major part of India's economy. Living in UAE I know that almost every doctor is Indian here and Indians make up more than 42% of the population.

Here is an article confirming:

http://www.khaleejtimes.com/business/gold-forex/remittances-from-gcc-to-india-hit-72b

I have always stated that Pakistanis have the raw numbers and lower class population and even a smaller number of professionals hungry for opportunities and better pay/security and conditions that can replace the Indians completely in the gulf. I have to note that for all our support for GCC, from its Israel stance to its Iran stance (and now the same GCC is divided with Qatar gone) we have got little in return. True, they helped us with aid and an opportunity for our workers to work in their countries but so did they give the Indians the same right (in fact they are here in greater numbers than us, same goes for aid as a lot of aid by the gulf goes to India too).

The "little return" part is specially true when it comes to foreign policy. We can argue we did not leverage our position and ask for much in return for training the arab militaries before the west took over the responsibility (US asked for a base and troops and for a great deal of foreign policy concessions). We played a role in the the Six day war and the Yom Kippur war and our pilots were some of the few that shot down Israeli planes with outdated Egyptian aircraft. A small role true, but has even a tinier than small role been played by any of the gulf states in any single one of our conflicts with India? Has Kashmir even been mentioned? Have ties between the Arab states been broken with India like they have been between Pakistan and Israel where we cannot even visit? Its good to think about Islam and the Ummah. But also necessary to leverage your national interests. And about the ummah be pragmatic. In the last centuries or so we have thought emotionally

About topic:

Also we all know what a cuckold Nawaz Sharif is, and it was the army chiefs presence that possibly helped him make the "decision" that we will be neutral after the Saudi monarch backed us in a corner and said "are you with Qatar or with us.". If you have studied the effect of damaging your opponent psychologically in military interrogation (before the physical process if needed) you will also know that threats and making your detainee choose between family and telling the truth about what he has done (in the case of international diplomacy this usually translates into making a leader perceived as weak choose between a vastly superior country vs a cornered or weak opponent- with 4 countries on Saudi's side and Trumps backing we all know who this is <I can qoute you some of the unclassified source material if you want> @El Sidd).

Also it does not say what Saud said after we said we will be neutral but it is a pressure tactic found in a foreign policy handbook used by powerful generals/heads of state/ministers to make other minor or weakened states submit to their demand. If you remember Musharraf in his memoirs states that US threatened "to bomb us to the stone age" before the post 9/11 Afghanistan invasion. That of course was a more direct threat also in a situation accentuated by a brutal terrorist attack but the implications obvious. When a people know they are vastly outnumbered and outclassed they make the decision for their own survival, not the right thing. It also is, unfortunately an unending contract and a sign of weakness by the weak proves that the person is not only weak but pathetic which leads to the demand of more concessions. Classic cases of this foreign policy example are in the 13th century surrender of a large chunk of Moravian territory (I don't remember the invading nation or the specific further concessions after the surrender, will have to read more to know-sorry, even a guy like me seeking unending knowledge in dreaming to be a diplomat/agent/policy maker and denied the opportunity knows so much) and the Tsarist Russian defeat in World war II in 1917, where the Axis powers demanded severe concessions:

The Brest-Litovsk Treaty resulted in the Russians surrendering the Ukraine, Finland, the Baltic provinces, the Caucasus and Poland.

http://spartacus-educational.com/RUSfww.htm

By the way here not only threats but internal strife (including war weariness within Russia) played a role and the axis powers took the opportunity admirably.

Also brother @El Sidd, I liked your posts in the start. And I have no reason to insult you knowing that you are smart and pragmatic, but you are not analyzing the situation here brother. Its your choice to support Saudi. Pakistan is a myriad of beautiful but unique views that differ from person to person and this is evident in both the foreign ministry and ISI's analysis wing but even I have to admit that people even at the top and within these institutions lack the knowledge of history/world politics, asking for something in return even from allies to make decisions critical to the countries security.

@Irfan Baloch good to see you back after so long. Any thoughts about what I have said?

Following the situation closely I would like to learn new perspectives. With Al Jazeera (though closed here in UAE after the crisis-very unfortunate as it is by far the best and most critical and liberal arab news outlet) I know the Qatari one and I do feel Jazeera has become way too concerned with presenting the Qatar situation from Thani's perspective- being a very liberal person I would like Al Jazeera to go back to its roots though and be a little more like it was before rather than being completely about Qatar's perspective (no need for another fox news here), though it is the best thing for journalism that happened in the middle east.(By the way this is not saying Jazeera has not been pushed into a corner here-the west does not like the muslim worldview and the muslim states, as proven recently are way too intolerant towards public debate, expressing differing opinion etc)

I would also like to have a critical debate with a Saudi member and a Turkish member for varying perspectives. Please share your thoughts @HAKIKAT @Zulkarneyn (Want to tag Saudis too, but can't get hold of any on this thread-why the ghost like behavior brothers?) Oh and @Kuwaiti Girl. Please comment.

my post was a sarcastic take on ourselves at the expense of our selves
how we play in the hands of the unknown and how predictable and petty we are
Arab monarchs are Pharaohs.. its been long since Al Lawrence put things in motion that established their fiefdoms the world bends to their will (including the slave labour from far east and beyond) and the western politicians it was only a matter of time when one of them was going to challenge the power of absolution.
the Saudi Qatar "conflict" is the matter of pride young budding Emarite has challenged the bigger brother
and it displeases KSA.. Al Akhwan, Iran or whatever are just excuses..

I fear for Pakistan and Turkey .. Turkey because of its proximity to the conflict zone and us because we have to express our loyalty wholeheartedly or yet another minister from UAE will bully us and warn us of the consequences.

on the side note.. America sells billion dollars worth F-15s to Qatar....
beat that.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Mashallah full of passion but missing the obvious
good post nonetheless bless you and be good



my post was a sarcastic take on ourselves at the expense of our selves
how we play in the hands of the unknown and how predictable and petty we are
Arab monarchs are Pharaohs.. its been long since Al Lawrence put things in motion that established their fiefdoms the world bends to their will (including the slave labour from far east and beyond) and the western politicians it was only a matter of time when one of them was going to challenge the power of absolution.
the Saudi Qatar "conflict" is the matter of pride young budding Emarite has challenged the bigger brother
and it displeases KSA.. Al Akhwan, Iran or whatever are just excuses..

I fear for Pakistan and Turkey .. Turkey because of its proximity to the conflict zone and us because we have to express our loyalty wholeheartedly or yet another minister from UAE will bully us and warn us of the consequences.

on the side note.. America sells billion dollars worth F-15s to Qatar....
beat that.

A good thing about this USA move is to show who's still the boss of the KSA/GCC!!! Who supports whom doesn't matter at all!!!! Anyway, it's a positive development for Pak (and, Turkey too)!!!! Gunah bizden gitti - Sins have left us....

 

[haviZsultan]

Mashallah full of passion but missing the obvious
good post nonetheless bless you and be good



my post was a sarcastic take on ourselves at the expense of our selves
how we play in the hands of the unknown and how predictable and petty we are
Arab monarchs are Pharaohs.. its been long since Al Lawrence put things in motion that established their fiefdoms the world bends to their will (including the slave labour from far east and beyond) and the western politicians it was only a matter of time when one of them was going to challenge the power of absolution.
the Saudi Qatar "conflict" is the matter of pride young budding Emarite has challenged the bigger brother
and it displeases KSA.. Al Akhwan, Iran or whatever are just excuses..

I fear for Pakistan and Turkey .. Turkey because of its proximity to the conflict zone and us because we have to express our loyalty wholeheartedly or yet another minister from UAE will bully us and warn us of the consequences.

on the side note.. America sells billion dollars worth F-15s to Qatar....
beat that.

I noticed your sarcasm and must say I sympathize and haven't been criticizing you. Just wanted to have your thoughts and concerns about how Pakistan's role in formulating foreign policy and taking a stand has been muffled at best since Zardari/Nawaz era. Even a tiny country like Qatar has a strong footprint and a good foreign policy. We have none and are pushed around not only by US, Britain, France but the gulf countries and now even our direct neighbors who have been hostile like India and Afghanistan which clearly can't mean anything good for our future.

Btw I read your post but did not respond. Suffice it to say living in a gulf country can be hard when you want to express yourself openly about the host countries policies and I would rather do it in my own country. Here it can lead to a lot of trouble where I am now with supporting Qatar banned and I noticed though that Canada seemed more liberal in the matter outwardly but could be just as grouchy if not hostile. So will express myself more openly when/if I have the chance.

Happy posting Irfan. Cheers.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

I noticed your sarcasm and must say I sympathize and haven't been criticizing you. Just wanted to have your thoughts and concerns about how Pakistan's role in formulating foreign policy and taking a stand has been muffled at best since Zardari/Nawaz era. Even a tiny country like Qatar has a strong footprint and a good foreign policy. We have none and are pushed around not only by US, Britain, France but the gulf countries and now even our direct neighbors who have been hostile like India and Afghanistan which clearly can't mean anything good for our future.

Btw I read your post but did not respond. Suffice it to say living in a gulf country can be hard when you want to express yourself openly about the host countries policies and I would rather do it in my own country. Here it can lead to a lot of trouble where I am now with supporting Qatar banned and I noticed though that Canada seemed more liberal in the matter outwardly but could be just as grouchy if not hostile. So will express myself more openly when/if I have the chance.

Happy posting Irfan. Cheers.

stay safe

 

[T-Rex]

That's for Pakistanis to decide. The Pakistanis who live in once called West Pakistan. You know the Pakistan west from the East Pakistan

We don't care about the crisis. We will milk them both.

Why don't you just talk on Bangladesh and its politics and policy?

Do you always bring in other issues when you cannot counter what someone is saying? As I said show me a single evidence that goes against my observation. Don't drag in BD here, there's a section for that.

 

[SouI]

Russia was against Turkey in WWI. Ataturk was fighting UK and France who were allied to Russia.
What are you upto? nee conspiracy theory?

Why do you act like something if you don't know the history of my country? Bug off.

 

[punit]

it is shocking that Saudis have done this to Qatar who are not even Shias
doing this to kafir Asad & Yemanis is understandable but Qataris are pious Muslims like Saudis

very sad day for Muslims and only Iranians are happy


brother dont say that
Arab Muslim unity is very Important otherwise Iranians and Yermani Hothis will win


brother it is good that you are siding with Qatar instead of Iran because Qatar is Sunni so its great
while Pakistan side with Saudis who are also not shia and correct Muslims so we have it all covered


brother you smell like Iranian puppet
you know true Muslims and Israel term the Iranians as worse than ISIS? this is why therefore they find it halal and koshar to support ISIS as well?

the onlky sad thing here is Iranian Ayatullahs are laughing because true Muslims are about to fight with each other instead of conquering them and making them Muslims

Sarcasm level : Platinum !

 

[Zhukov]

Why do you act like something if you don't know the history of my country? Bug off.

Enlighten me sir if i am missing something. Ataturk supported by Russians is something never heard of. Sounds like Conspiracy theory to me.
Or add to my knowledge.
But talk with respect

 

[SouI]

Enlighten me sir if i am missing something. Ataturk supported by Russians is something never heard of. Sounds like Conspiracy theory to me.
Or add to my knowledge.
But talk with respect

Well that is to be expected for you as you don't get Turkish history as part of your education given your Pakistani nationality.

We on the other hand learn it in primary school, AS SHOULD BE EXPECTED!

Sounds like Conspiracy theory to me.

And this is what angered me . You went ahead on calling someone's knowledge on their own history "wrong" and "conspiracy" and yet you are the one in the ignorant side!

I wish you asked to learn what happened in the past respectfully instead of blindly refuting what the other said without knowing anything of the context.


What happened is that after Ottoman Emire blockade of straits Russia defaulted, declared to give up on the war, became neutral, gave back the north east territories of Ottoman Empire back as a sign of goodness (Ardahan, Kars and surroundings) and then they were out of the war.

After British France along with their allies and colonies started the offensive of dardanelles to invade the straits, Russians got scared as the didnt want british to rule the straits and this started sending armament money etc to the Ankara government.

They helped us a lot.

 

[Zibago]

Our interest is huge but we wont align ourself with anyone our aim will be reconciliation only

Both Turkey and Pakistan have very limited interest in this to begin with. That's all.

They have done nothing except pursue thier own interests and now we shall do the same.

I wouldnt say that

 

[Awan68]

Our interest is huge but we wont align ourself with anyone our aim will be reconciliation only



I wouldnt say that

U should, its called geo politics and national interest, 200 million pakistanis come before anything else dont u agree? and if its the question of defence on arabs than i would advocate sending half our army there to teach who ever dares to attack the arab people a lesson but supporting a single family n thier dynasty?? Ring some bells?, we are fighting the same menace in the face of sharifs these days..

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Sarcasm level : Platinum !

Ada'b bhai sahib hope you been well
people are strange, guys in the middle east are legendary in their hospitality and friendships but then again being human their appetite for hate and violence is unrelenting as well

 

[Saif al-Arab]

I don't think it matters for KSA, Egypt, UAE, Bahrain etc. what side Pakistan is on or for that matter Sierra Leone.

The only truly relevant power in this dispute is the US. The same US that has its largest base in the region (forward headquarters of CENTCOM) in Qatar.

This is a internal Arab matter and as such it can only be solved by the current leaderships in power. Hopefully in a bloodless fashion as I don't imagine anything else occurring.

 

[beast89]

the fistfights have begun

https://twitter.com/x/status/875829543952670720