Are Iranians lying about the ”10 seconds reaction time”.

[A.P. Richelieu]

learn how to read! I said trade! SAAB sold billions to UAE instead. That was ARMS!

You said ”SAAB and Sweden” which pretty much restricts business to Arms.

Learn to read, and you might stop lying,

First of all, UAE is not Saudiarabia.
Secondly, SAAB sold a couple of EriEyes to UAE which resulted in total business of $14M during 2017, which is peanuts. Certainly not the billions you are ranting about.

The total export of weapons from Sweden was $1,1B during 2017
Your desperation in defending Iranian lies is embarrassing.

 

[Sina-1]

You said ”SAAB and Sweden” which pretty much restricts business to Arms.

Learn to read, and you might stop lying,

First of all, UAE is not Saudiarabia.
Secondly, SAAB sold a couple of EriEyes to UAE which resulted in total business of $14M during 2017, which is peanuts. Certainly not the billions you are ranting about.

The total export of weapons from Sweden was $1,1B during 2017
Your desperation in defending Iranian lies is embarrassing.

you are clearly embarrassed so this is my last post.

my point is that even Sweden is leaching of the REGION. Which it clearly is! I don’t mind it! but your high horse sentiment is annoying.

Globaleye deal is 100 times your figure. At least 1,3 billion USD AND most analysts expect the deal to grow three times that!
https://www.defensenews.com/digital...agreement-for-two-more-saab-globaleye-planes/

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

learn how to read! I said trade! SAAB sold billions to UAE instead. That was ARMS!

No, Sweden sold arms for $14M to UAE during 2017, primarily EriEyes which can be used to track Irans illegal activities in the Gulf. We do want to support that.

Swedens export to Saudiarabia is 0,7% of total exports.
Both Turkey and Pakistan trades with Saudiarabia at much higher numbers.
What has sales of IKEA furniture and whatever got to do with Iranian lies about killing their own citizens?
Stop derailing the thread!

 

[Sina-1]

No, Sweden sold arms for $14M to UAE during 2017, primarily EriEyes which can be used to track Irans illegal activities in the Gulf. We do want to support that

Try reading, it’s good for you!

DUBAI, United Arab Emirates — The Emirati Ministry of Defence will buy two more GlobalEye airborne early warning planes from Swedish aerospace firm Saab, bringing the country’s total number of aircraft to five, officials announced on Tuesday at Dubai Airshow.

No contract has been signed, and the terms of the order will not be set in stone until final negotiations have concluded. However, the sale is worth about $1 billion, Saab stated in a news release.



and now some free math lesson:
5/2 = 2.5
2.5*1B$ = 2500 million $

 

[Philosopher]

The distance to 12 km at 6000 meter altitude = sqrt(12^2 + 6^2) = 13416 meters.
It will take 13416 meters /850 meters per second = 16 seconds to reach the max distance.

In reality, the flight would have been detected at least a minute earlier,
From this we can draw the conclusion that the operator had several minutes before the flight would be out of range.
.

What a ridiculous analysis. It is assuming the the tor m-1 was 12 km (max distance) away from the target.

Where is your proof as to where the tor m-1 system was exatcly at the time of the attack? if you're going to do a calculation regarding how long the operator had, don't make your own assumptions regarding such important facts.

 

[OCguy]

I hope Iran will shatter US troops in the region and send them to their home countries. Enough is enough.

Delusional. Myself and a quickly growing percentage of Americans want to leave the region ASAP. But one real attack on US forces, leads to the end of the Iranian regime. Without a land invasion.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

What a ridiculous analysis. It is assuming the the tor m-1 was 12 km (max distance) away from the target.

Where is your proof as to where the tor m-1 system was exatcly at the time of the attack? if you're going to do a calculation regarding how long the operator had, don't make your own assumptions regarding such important facts.

No, it is an analysis of what would happen if the Boeing 737 is detected right over the Tor M1 launcher, which halves the theoretical maximum reaction time.

If the target continues climbing the operators have several minutes before it is out of range.
If the target starts to dive it can be killed in a few seconds.
If the target was at the border of the range, it would just make the available time to kill it longer.
There was NO reason for a fast decision.

 

[Philosopher]

No, it is an analysis of what would happen if the Boeing 737 is detected right over the Tor M1 launcher, which halves the theoretical maximum reaction time.

If the target continues climbing the operators have several minutes before it is out of range.
If the target starts to dive it can be killed in a few seconds.
If the target was at the border of the range, it would just make the available time to kill it longer.
There was NO reason for a fast decision.

Except we don't know exactly when and where it was detected, so can we refrain from creating own hypothetical scenarios?

There are many other factors to consider here, i.e Iranian operators being told to expect cruise missile attacks. Tor-m1 radar is simply not equipped to do RCS calculations. Simply relying on speed and altitude is not good enough in these scenarios. By your logic, the americans are also incompetent because they shot down an airliner?

The operators most definitely were not aware the planes were still flying. Why? Because IRGC gave the request to close down the airpsace but it was rejected. And During those short periods of misinformation, jamming (which were occurring and stopped the operators form communicating) this terrible incident happened.

I have said from the beginning, such terrible incidents happens. The major fault here lies which whomever did not grant the request for the grounding of the flight. They need to be found and executed.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

Except we don't know exactly when and where it was detected, so can we refrain from creating own hypothetical scenarios?

There are many other factors to consider here, i.e Iranian operators being told to expect cruise missile attacks. Tor-m1 radar is simply not equipped to do RCS calculations. Simply relying on speed and altitude is not good enough in these scenarios. By your logic, the americans are also incompetent because they shot down an airliner?

The operators most definitely were not aware the planes were still flying. Why? Because IRGC gave the request to close down the airpsace but it was rejected. And During those short periods of misinformation, jamming (which were occurring and stopped the operators form communicating) this terrible incident happened.

I have said from the beginning, such terrible incidents happens. The major fault here lies which whomever did not grant the request for the grounding of the flight. They need to be found and executed.

I have covered the different scenarios I can think of.
You are free to suggest a scenario where they only have a 10 second reaction time before they MUST take action.

If the Tor M1 radar cannot detect ascend/descend and speed it seems to me, it is a piece of crap.

That the operators are not aware that planes are still flying show incompetence.
There were NO US assets in the vicinity so who would be doing any jamming?
Sounds to me to be just another excuse without backing in reality.

It appears that think tanks have come to the same conclusion as I did.
The operator has 2-4 minutes to do a decision.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeremy...ld-have-mistaken-a-737-for-a-military-threat/

We are not discussing the US downing of an Iranian flight here. Open another thread if you want to discuss that.

 

[Philosopher]

I have covered the different scenarios I can think of.
You are free to suggest a scenario where they only have a 10 second reaction time before they MUST take action.

Your scenarios are based on your own assumption, why would I waste my time creating hypothetical scenarios? Are you seriously trying to claim there are no such scenarios? All one needs to do is change assumptions and create such scenarios.

If the Tor M1 radar cannot detect ascend/descend and speed it seems to me, it is a piece of crap.

That is not what I said...I said doing RCS calculations etc. And like I told you, ascend and descend speed did not stop the US shooting down the plane. Unless you have actually worked in air defence units, then please don't try and tell us how easy or hard x y or z would be.

That the operators are not aware that planes are still flying show incompetence.

Wrong. They can only go with the information they are given. How is it their incompetence if someone else is the one responsible for not grounding flight?

There were NO US assets in the vicinity so who would be doing any jamming?
Sounds to me to be just another excuse without backing in reality.

No one is talking about US jamming. And I am posting information stated by the military official, you're going by your own hypothetical scenarios. If you chose not to believe the official claims, then go ahead, but don't act as if your version is the one that has to be accepted.

We are not discussing the US downing of an Iranian flight here. Open another thread if you want to discuss that.

Now this is just silly. It is extremely relevant to this topic. Because your trying to claim the operator should have known from the speed of ascend/descend etc that it was not an attack, and I am saying, that is simply fault out demonstrably wrong. The proof? The US shooting of the airliners.

It appears that think tanks have come to the same conclusion as I did.
The operator has 2-4 minutes to do a decision.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeremy...ld-have-mistaken-a-737-for-a-military-threat/

Once again, all these are based on ones own assumption. You want us to believe the word of some random "think tank" over the actual military officials that have access to all the information?

If Iran wanted to cover this up, they can do that easily. Your talking as if this story is a lie and that it's the best Iran could come up with or something?

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

Try reading, it’s good for you!

DUBAI, United Arab Emirates — The Emirati Ministry of Defence will buy two more GlobalEye airborne early warning planes from Swedish aerospace firm Saab, bringing the country’s total number of aircraft to five, officials announced on Tuesday at Dubai Airshow.

No contract has been signed, and the terms of the order will not be set in stone until final negotiations have concluded. However, the sale is worth about $1 billion, Saab stated in a news release.



and now some free math lesson:
5/2 = 2.5
2.5*1B$ = 2500 million $

UAE has ordered 3 GlobalEye from SAAB.
First contract was $1,27B for 2 GlobalEye
Second contract was for $238M for a single Global Eye.
That total is $1,6B for sure.
They have shown interest for an additional 2 which might (or might not) add an additional $1B.
The GlobalEye will help to put a stop to acts of piracy like the recent capture of a Swedish ship by the Iranian Navy under a barrage of lies similar to those that were produced the last week.

A) They are not sold to Saudiarabia
B) It is in our interest to stop Irani piracy, so this is not leaching.
C) The sale is nothing to be ashamed of, unlike the Irani export of missiles.

Your scenarios are based on your own assumption, why would I waste my time creating hypothetical scenarios? Are you seriously trying to claim there are no such scenarios? All one needs to do is change assumptions and create such scenarios.




That is not what I said...I said doing RCS calculations etc. And like I told you, ascend and descend speed did not stop the US shooting down the plane. Unless you have actually worked in air defence units, then please don't try and tell us how easy or hard x y or z would be.



Wrong. They can only go with the information they are given. How is it their incompetence if someone else is the one responsible for not grounding flight?



No one is talking about US jamming. And I am posting information stated by the military official, you're going by your own hypothetical scenarios. If you chose not to believe the official claims, then go ahead, but don't act as if your version is the one that has to be accepted.



Now this is just silly. It is extremely relevant to this topic. Because your trying to claim the operator should have known from the speed of ascend/descend etc that it was not an attack, and I am saying, that is simply fault out demonstrably wrong. The proof? The US shooting of the airliners.



Once again, all these are based on ones own assumption. You want us to believe the word of some random "think tank" over the actual military officials that have access to all the information?

If Iran wanted to cover this up, they can do that easily. Your talking as if this story is a lie and that it's the best Iran could come up with or something?

Yes, it is beyond doubt that the ”10 second reaction time” is a lie.
It is a matter of simple calculations versus the word of proven liars.
I do not make any assumptions, I show how the reaction times varies with circumstances,
but they are never around 10 seconds.

 

[Philosopher]

A) They are not sold to Saudiarabia
B) It is in our interest to stop Irani piracy, so this is not leaching.
C) The sale is nothing to be ashamed of, unlike the Irani export of missiles.



Yes, it is beyond doubt that the ”10 second reaction time” is a lie.
It is a matter of simple calculations versus the word of proven liars.
I do not make any assumptions, I show how the reaction time varies with circumstances,
but they are never around 10 seconds.

There is obviously no point in going in circles my friend. I have already told you, you're making your own assumptions here. We don't know anything yet. Such as where this Tor was, when did it actually start searching/detecting? these factors will define how long the operator had. You do not have access to any of these so you're just assuming.

 

[Sina-1]

There is obviously no point in going in circles my friend. I have already told you, you're making your own assumptions here. We don't know anything yet. Such as where this Tor was, when did it actually start searching/detecting? these factors will define how long the operator had. You do not have access to any of these so you're just assuming.

He changes his premises just to continue with an argument! Weak!

 

[Serpentine]

They do not have the right to conduct their affairs inside Syria and Iraq.

Didn't see you saying the same about U.S, who needs to get the F out of ME.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

There is obviously no point in going in circles my friend. I have already told you, you're making your own assumptions here. We don't know anything yet. Such as where this Tor was, when did it actually start searching/detecting? these factors will define how long the operator had. You do not have access to any of these so you're just assuming.

I have pointed out the reaction time depending on where the Tor M1 was located relative the flight. There is no assumption involved. The equations are enough to draw a conclusion since they look at the extreme points.
If the operator did not have a continous search that is also not a sign of competency.