Are Iranians lying about the ”10 seconds reaction time”.

[BATMAN]

Do we have a case where Iranians were not found lying?

It's the kind of shit that happens when the U.S spreads war and insecurity in the world

Did US told Iran to give Iranian passports and visa to Pakistan's most wanted?

This US blaming is utterly nonsens....

It comes from non other than mulla puppies of Pakistan origin.... not even Iranians are that much brain washed!

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

Again it has NOTHING TO DO WITH DETECTION!!!!!!! And 12km is the SA-15 missiles MAX effective range but that doesn't mean the Unit fired their missiles at the missiles max range and more likely than not the missiles was fired from ~8km against a target their radar showed was coming straight at them so that's the amount of time they perceived to have left before they were dead!
So how much time the Unit had before firing the missiles is a completely different issue as is the detection range....

Again, if the unit was told that cruise missiles had been fired and was coming their way and with their limited range radar they saw a target coming straight at them that based in info given to them they perceived to be a cruise missile and every attempt to confirm target was unsuccessful and a target was coming straight at them fact is they had mere seconds before the target would go past the minimum engagement range of the system and they would be dead
Now you can argue that they actually had 20-25 seconds instead of 10 sec and that may be more accurate but they sure as hell did NOT have 1 min let alone 4 min and the truth is that in their mind they had mere seconds left at the time they fired the shot....

The MAIN people at fault in this tragic accident are the fools who failed to ground all civilian airliners and clear the airspace of all civilian traffic at a time that Iran's military was put at it's highest level of readiness (Iran's version of DEFCON 1).
Also, Iran needs to investigate to see based on what intel did they inform a SHORAD system near the capital that there was a cruise missiles coming their way. Also, why did requests made by that unit to clear the Air Space fall on deaf ears.....
And NO ONE should blame the unit that fired the shot! They did their job based on the information that was provided to them and Iran can't have it's Air Defense Units become hesitant for when there is a real attack!

It has everything to do with detection.
The claim was that the operators had only 10 seconds to decide.
One can conclude from that the operators detected the flight and fired the missile 10 seconds later.

The claim is that the flight was travelling directly towards the launcher.
If you argue that the operator of a radar with a detection range of 25 km, only detected an airplane which had travelled 25-8=17 km without beeing detected while the operator is supposed to be on the highest level of alert, then the conclusion must be that the operator is incompetent.
You have of course no facts that substantiate your reasoning.
Since the claim is that the launcher was 19 km from the point of impact, your claim that it was only 8km implicitly mean that you agree that the Iranian general was lying.

So we know for sure that Iran is lying, but we are not sure exactly which of the conflicting statements are the real lies.

 

[VEVAK]

We have already been through this! This notion that a defence operator could waits "minutes" when facing with what they were told is a cruise missile is simply ludicrous.

It has everything to do with detection.
The claim was that the operators had only 10 seconds to decide.
One can conclude from that the operators detected the flight and fired the missile 10 seconds later.

The claim is that the flight was travelling directly towards the launcher.
If you argue that the operator of a radar with a detection range of 25 km, only detected an airplane which had travelled 25-8=17 km without beeing detected while the operator is supposed to be on the highest level of alert, then the conclusion must be that the operator is incompetent.
You have of course no facts that substantiate your reasoning.
Since the claim is that the launcher was 19 km from the point of impact, your claim that it was only 8km implicitly mean that you agree that the Iranian general was lying.

So we know for sure that Iran is lying, but we are not sure exactly which of the conflicting statements are the real lies.

WOW are you really that slow??????
1.SA-15 Missiles have a max range of 12km!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So it doesn't matter who said what the missile was fired well within that range!!!!
2.The 10 seconds he was referring to was the time the unit perceived to have had left before they were all dead when they fired the shot because their radar showed a target coming straight at them!!

Now if these are too hard for you to comprehend then that is NOT my problem!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Philosopher]

I think this guy is trolling, no way can someone be this slow.

 

[VEVAK]

it seems you are slow !!! hajizadeh said that they had 10 sec for confirming target, when they could detect it before engagement range ( before they could hit it !!! ). why they simply did not ask for confirmation ? if there was continues communication problems, then time is not matter. they could not confirm the target even in 10 min, and saying we had only 10 sec is a bullshit.

Clearly you don't know how to count or do simple math!!!!!!!!!!!

1.SA-15 missiles have a MAX range of 12km
2.The unit was told that Cruise Missiles had been fired and were coming their way
3.The unit on it's limited range radar sees a target turning and coming straight at them and based previous intel they assume it to be the cruise missile they had been told was coming
4.The target keeps getting closer and the Tor units attempt at com to confirm the target for whatever reason don't go through
5.Based on the info they had a target they assumed to be a cruise missile is coming straight at them and at that point they had mere seconds to either fire or die

Now do the math a tomahawk cruises at ~890kph and at the time they fired the shot the target was well within 8km of the target so based on their assumption they had mere second before they were destroyed

 

[viewer]

Clearly you don't know how to count or do simple math!!!!!!!!!!!

1.SA-15 missiles have a MAX range of 12km
2.The unit was told that Cruise Missiles had been fired and were coming their way
3.The unit on it's limited range radar sees a target turning and coming straight at them and based previous intel they assume it to be the cruise missile they had been told was coming
4.The target keeps getting closer and the Tor units attempt at com to confirm the target for whatever reason don't go through
5.Based on the info they had a target they assumed to be a cruise missile is coming straight at them and at that point they had mere seconds to either fire or die

Now do the math a tomahawk cruises at ~890kph and at the time they fired the shot the target was well within 8km of the target so based on their assumption they had mere second before they were destroyed

1-ok
2-ok
3-ok ( turning the plane has not been proven yet. but it is ok )
4-speed of the plane was not 890 kph and they can detect it on the radar. based on the flight24 radar information the plane speed was only 280 kph. based on your assumption they fired a missile 8 km before target. then they let the target 4 km and then fire on it. 4km with 280kph means almost 1 min!!! and they can fire 7km before target or 6 km.
and finally can you please explain how they can fire second missile 35 second after first missile. when they have only 10 sec for engagement ??????? !!!!
https://www.tabnak.ir/fa/news/951837/لحظه-شلیک-هر-دو-موشک-به-بوئینگ-737
i defend the decision of the officer for firing with that information. if (and if and if again ) they had not any chance for communicate and confirm the target. ( even in this case RCS, speed, altitude of plane and .... was not match with cruise missile ) . I am against lying. i simply say we all are sorry for this but be honest and let fix that problems. if we hide these failures we will loose every thing. Transparency will result in greater accountability and greater accuracy. All officials see this.this secrecy will be a lesson for them that imprudence will have no consequences for them, and the subject will be hidden. Why do you insist on proving the lie?

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

WOW are you really that slow??????
1.SA-15 Missiles have a max range of 12km!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So it doesn't matter who said what the missile was fired well within that range!!!!
2.The 10 seconds he was referring to was the time the unit perceived to have had left before they were all dead when they fired the shot because their radar showed a target coming straight at them!!

Now if these are too hard for you to comprehend then that is NOT my problem!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The procedure to fire a missile is that you start your decision process when you detect the target, not when the target is within firing range. The detection range is 25 km.
The radar will report the speed of the target, so a competent operator can quickly have an approximation of how long time he can use to confirm the validity of the target.

If a missile is detected at max range (25 km) a flight flying at 275 kph ground speed will take 5 and a half minutes to travel the distance (25/275)*60.

The 10 second reaction time is only valid if the operator detects the cruise missile at a distance of (10/3600)*275 kph = 763 meters. If an operator in the highest state of alert fails to detect a target for more than 5 minutes, they are really, really incompetent.

In most likelyhood, the operator detected a target, panicked and fired immediately without
checking with any superior officer, and when the missiles hit the target, their only thoughts were on medals, promotion and a pay rise.

What we have seen so far from official channels seems to be just cover-ups to hide this or something similar.

 

[PeeD]

The procedure to fire a missile is that you start your decision process when you detect the target, not when the target is within firing range. The detection range is 25 km.
The radar will report the speed of the target, so a competent operator can quickly have an approximation of how long time he can use to confirm the validity of the target.

If a missile is detected at max range (25 km) a flight flying at 275 kph ground speed will take 5 and a half minutes to travel the distance (25/275)*60.

The 10 second reaction time is only valid if the operator detects the cruise missile at a distance of (10/3600)*275 kph = 763 meters. If an operator in the highest state of alert fails to detect a target for more than 5 minutes, they are really, really incompetent.

In most likelyhood, the operator detected a target, panicked and fired immediately without
checking with any superior officer, and when the missiles hit the target, their only thoughts were on medals, promotion and a pay rise.

What we have seen so far from official channels seems to be just cover-ups to hide this or something similar.

Your approach to the issue is wrong.

First things first: A Tor-M1 has two modes when using its own search radar: High altitude and low altitude --> 2 Tor can cover the whole envelope.

This isolated Tor likely was in high altitude mode, had no link to other Tors that covered low altitude und detected the aircraft late when it was closer than its max. 20-25km radar range.

Then there is a second issue: When you start to classify a flight path as something threatening: Maybe at a late stage they came to the conclusion that this may be a cruise missile doing a pop-up manouver.

And third... The isolated Tor may had no idea of the usual flight paths of that region and is said to have been stationed there on that critical night. It may had no idea about the flight paths on that night from its command post and only started to see the radar picture when it lost connection to the CP and was forced to search on its own.

So things are more complex in reality and the 10 second statement might be legit.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

Your approach to the issue is wrong.

First things first: A Tor-M1 has two modes when using its own search radar: High altitude and low altitude --> 2 Tor can cover the whole envelope.

This isolated Tor likely was in high altitude mode, had no link to other Tors that covered low altitude und detected the aircraft late when it was closer than its max. 20-25km radar range.

Then there is a second issue: When you start to classify a flight path as something threatening: Maybe at a late stage they came to the conclusion that this may be a cruise missile doing a pop-up manouver.

And third... The isolated Tor may had no idea of the usual flight paths of that region and is said to have been stationed there on that critical night. It may had no idea about the flight paths on that night from its command post and only started to see the radar picture when it lost connection to the CP and was forced to search on its own.

So things are more complex in reality and the 10 second statement might be legit.

Why would a radar looking for cruise missiles that fly at an altitude 30-50 be in high altitude mode?
If it was in high altitude mode, why did it detect an aircraft at 8,000 feet late?
I really doubt that a cruise missile would ”popup” to 8,000 feet.

If they start to classify, then the counter for reaction time is started.

This very launcher asked for civilian flight to be grounded, so they certainly were aware of the risk of civilian flight, and it is unlikely that they are not aware of an International Airport.

 

[PeeD]

Why would a radar looking for cruise missiles that fly at an altitude 30-50 be in high altitude mode?
If it was in high altitude mode, why did it detect an aircraft at 8,000 feet late?
I really doubt that a cruise missile would ”popup” to 8,000 feet.

If they start to classify, then the counter for reaction time is started.

This very launcher asked for civilian flight to be grounded, so they certainly were aware of the risk of civilian flight, and it is unlikely that they are not aware of an International Airport.

One Tor covers 0-2500m and the other 2500-5000m. They share the work as they lack a expensive advanced radar like the Pantsir-S1.

That's how they work in the battery when connected to each other.

When isolated and without connection, according to emergency protocol one units of the battery takes the lower portion of the airspace and one the upper. This is coordinated prior to start of operation.

 

[VEVAK]

The procedure to fire a missile is that you start your decision process when you detect the target, not when the target is within firing range. The detection range is 25 km.
The radar will report the speed of the target, so a competent operator can quickly have an approximation of how long time he can use to confirm the validity of the target.

If a missile is detected at max range (25 km) a flight flying at 275 kph ground speed will take 5 and a half minutes to travel the distance (25/275)*60.

The 10 second reaction time is only valid if the operator detects the cruise missile at a distance of (10/3600)*275 kph = 763 meters. If an operator in the highest state of alert fails to detect a target for more than 5 minutes, they are really, really incompetent.

In most likelyhood, the operator detected a target, panicked and fired immediately without
checking with any superior officer, and when the missiles hit the target, their only thoughts were on medals, promotion and a pay rise.

What we have seen so far from official channels seems to be just cover-ups to hide this or something similar.

I don't know how many times you want me to repeat this to you?

At the time the missile was fired, the target the Tor unit assumed to be a cruise missile had gotten so close that they believed they were mere seconds away from being dead because they assumed that there was a cruise missile coming straight for them! And if you understood Farsi you would know that's what Hajizadeh was referring too when he said they had 10 seconds to decide!!! MY GOD!

Now if you look at the map I posted and by the way you can go to google earth pull up that location I circled and clearly see that this was the Military base the Tor unit was stationed out of and then you can look at the Map Hajizadeh provided and you can clearly see that the Aircraft they assumed to be a cruise missile had reached well within 7km of the Tor unit and what they precived to be a cruise missile was coming stright at them so at the time the fired the shot they assumed that they had mere seconds left before they were all DEAD!
As I told you before you may be able to argue that they actually had closer to 20 seconds inistead of 10 sec if it actually was a cruise missile but that's it!

If the SAM operators are assuming that this is a cruise missile then their decision making would have to be based on the assumption that the speed actual is closer 800kph and not based on ground speed that don't factor in whether the aircraft is ascending or descending...

Fact is the Tor unit did their job based on the info they had! You can't simply dismiss the fact that this unit was told that cruise missiles had been fired toward Iran and was coming their way.... And you can't simply dismiss the fact that some idiot thought it a good idea to inform this unit of an incoming cruise missiles and at the same time didn't see it necessary to ground all civilian flights and even dismissed that specific units request to have the Air Space cleared.....

So no doubt there was negligence here but the Tor unit is NOT to blame!

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

I don't know how many times you want me to repeat this to you?

At the time the missile was fired, the target the Tor unit assumed to be a cruise missile had gotten so close that they believed they were mere seconds away from being dead because they assumed that there was a cruise missile coming straight for them! And if you understood Farsi you would know that's what Hajizadeh was referring too when he said they had 10 seconds to decide!!! MY GOD!

Now if you look at the map I posted and by the way you can go to google earth pull up that location I circled and clearly see that this was the Military base the Tor unit was stationed out of and then you can look at the Map Hajizadeh provided and you can clearly see that the Aircraft they assumed to be a cruise missile had reached well within 7km of the Tor unit and what they precived to be a cruise missile was coming stright at them so at the time the fired the shot they assumed that they had mere seconds left before they were all DEAD!
As I told you before you may be able to argue that they actually had closer to 20 seconds inistead of 10 sec if it actually was a cruise missile but that's it!

If the SAM operators are assuming that this is a cruise missile then their decision making would have to be based on the assumption that the speed actual is closer 800kph and not based on ground speed that don't factor in whether the aircraft is ascending or descending...

Fact is the Tor unit did their job based on the info they had! You can't simply dismiss the fact that this unit was told that cruise missiles had been fired toward Iran and was coming their way.... And you can't simply dismiss the fact that some idiot thought it a good idea to inform this unit of an incoming cruise missiles and at the same time didn't see it necessary to ground all civilian flights and even dismissed that specific units request to have the Air Space cleared.....

So no doubt there was negligence here but the Tor unit is NOT to blame!

If you use Google Maps and measure the distance between the claimed position of the launcher and the impact point, you will find that the distance is around 12 km, or the maximum range of the missile.
The distance from the launcher to the airport was 35 km, but since the flight made a turn, the flight probably would have flown close to 37-40 km to pass over the launcher.
This means that the flight was in the air for 25-28 km.
The last ADS reading was after 19 km, at which point it had reached 3000 meters altitude.

At that time it was 18-20 km from the launcher and should have been detected by a competent crew at highest possible alert.

In most likelyhood it was, and the crew waited eagerly for the ”cruise missile” to reach the kill zone of the missile, and fired the instant it was.

 

[aziqbal]

the stampede and then airline crash

the attack on US bases and no US casualties

didn't quite go Irans way

next chapter

 

[TruthHurtz]

the stampede and then airline crash

the attack on US bases and no US casualties

didn't quite go Irans way

next chapter

The US is already bleeding casualties in Afghanistan. Esmail Ghaani (Soleimani's successor) was in charge of Quds force operations in Afghanistan during his early career. Roadside bomb killed 2 soldiers just a few days ago.