Any misuse of arms supplied to Pak will be probed: US

[deckingraj]

Well, its old American policy, when ever US sell India some high tech weapon, it also sell Pakistan solution too. So, keep India on neutral ground. I don't remember, I post article in which US and India navel defence procurements and Pakistan got the anti weapons.
Obviously majority of heavy weapons basically has no application in war on terror. Its Pak army push to US govt to fulfill Pak armed forces need. Do you think Harpoon or Orion has any application in war on terror ?

You got it totally wrong mate...Who told you that all the weapons that you have got/will get is just for fight with terrorists??? You are not bonded slaves of US that you will fight their war on terror and get nothing out of it...You do get economic help in return and bare minimum weapons for your defence needs...In the end its all diplomacy...We try everything to deny you advanced weapons and you try to get your hands to them....However if we go by latest trends than what you are getting is too little to change the equations....

Care to explain when you get more F16 why you did not get Block 60(latest in the series) but got only block 52 whereas block 60 is in bid for indian MRCA???

Also i explained in my previous post as well that India has nothing to loose from this statement...However if this is indeed true than it will surely make things difficult for your strategic planners .....

P.S : I am not a military expert...Just my thoughts on the subject so feel free to disagree...

 

[karan.1970]

That would be very narrow way of analysis...Here is my POV...

Its all Diplomacy Mate... Keep improving and leave no stone unturned to deny the same to your adversary...Now i do not know if French Avionics for JF17 deal story has anything to do with India but just for hypothesis lets assume it is then don't you think that even though JF17 is not good enough a fighter to take on MKI's still this is welcome news from Indian POV??? If US is giving us assurance that use of such weapons will be monitored please suggest me how is it going to harm our interest...If they did good for us...if they don't then anyways we are not relying on this assurance....So nothing to loose for us in this but only to gain....

Now from Pakistan prespective if they indeed use such weapons for other purpose than what they are intended for(which is the launch an offensive attack on India) and US did take it seriously then you know what all they have to loose....

My point exactly.. Its diplomatic capital.. Why expend it in something that can be easily substituted with Dollars.. Non Tangible capital is hard to come by and should be used in places where just money doesnt work (lot like love )

Now keeping Pakistan unbalanced in Afghanistan is something where this capital can be considered well spent..

India's work in Afghanistan critically important: US envoy- Hindustan Times

 

[ice_man]

is india feeling much secured now? can we get few more f 16s now that US is keepin an eye

whatever helps them sleep at night!!

 

[rubyjackass]

That would be very narrow way of analysis...Here is my POV...

Its all Diplomacy Mate... Keep improving and leave no stone unturned to deny the same to your adversary...Now i do not know if French Avionics for JF17 deal story has anything to do with India but just for hypothesis lets assume it is then don't you think that even though JF17 is not good enough a fighter to take on MKI's still this is welcome news from Indian POV??? If US is giving us assurance that use of such weapons will be monitored please suggest me how is it going to harm our interest...If they did good for us...if they don't then anyways we are not relying on this assurance....So nothing to loose for us in this but only to gain....

Now from Pakistan prespective if they indeed use such weapons for other purpose than what they are intended for(which is the launch an offensive attack on India) and US did take it seriously then you know what all they have to loose....

So very true.
Besides if you loosen the pressure tabs, suppliers will get emboldened to sell for more profits. Who knows how many thoughts to supply Pakistan had stopped after they considered Indian pressure? So it is very important to do what exactly India is doing now. Tighten the screws on anything that strengthens Pak's military. That is the most reasonable thing to do. Self respect is an illusion created by pathetic players with no powers to give away your advantage for free. Who will fall for that? Self-respect, the reason after which so many Pakistani leaders took their country and messed it up.

 

[duhastmish]

ofocurse - but what do they mean by misuse ??????? can they define it.

if india pak have a confrontation and paksitan uses its weapon to protect itself ...... its not misuse .

so i think its a meaning less statment . paksitan will and rightly so should use its weapon if it have any problem on any of its border.

cheers.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

i dont know what indian pressure these indian are talking about

 

[deckingraj]

ofocurse - but what do they mean by misuse ??????? can they define it.

if india pak have a confrontation and paksitan uses its weapon to protect itself ...... its not misuse .

so i think its a meaning less statment . paksitan will and rightly so should use its weapon if it have any problem on any of its border.

cheers.

Misuse would be if Pakistan is using these weapons to launch an attack on India....If the international community blames Pakistan for aggression that it can be considered misuse..Honestly i do am not sure...as there is a thin line here and you never know how the situation would be treated but remember in a war scenario you just don't use the weapons in hand but need some sort of assurance that there is a supply line to take care of needs like more such machines, spare parts etc etc....Otherwise you are always in a dilemna...

In short anything that makes life difficult for my adversary is a win-win situation...So from that perspective not a bad statement....

 

[deckingraj]

My point exactly.. Its diplomatic capital.. Why expend it in something that can be easily substituted with Dollars.. Non Tangible capital is hard to come by and should be used in places where just money doesnt work (lot like love )

How do you know that it was not dollars that resulted in this statement ??? You very well know we have many goodies like MRCA and much more to keep people interested....Secondly when it comes to Diplomacy you always keep the pressure high when it comes to your interests....US has definitely hurt our interests from the say Pakistan became their ally...Their role in 1971 is still not gone from India phyche...So better to keep Uncle Sam under the impression that if you need a slack of our pie(India's Huge Market) better keep a check on your defence deals....

Now keeping Pakistan unbalanced in Afghanistan is something where this capital can be considered well spent..

India's work in Afghanistan critically important: US envoy- Hindustan Times

Agreed ....However state of art weapons will be more of a headache for our military establishment than AF....Remember any influence that India would gain in AF is only bonus since we had none a decade back....

 

[deckingraj]

i dont know what indian pressure these indian are talking about

Diplomatic offensive(pressure) is not like someone will come and simply stragulate you with bare hands...Such statements cannot be easily ignored...I am sure after this statement was out your establishment would be doing work on their part to understand what exactly this means and why it was said...How can it impact during/after/before any war/war like situation with India....You very well know how US sanctions effected your PAF viz-a-viz F16's....It would be a nightmare for PAk if another sanction are imposed but this time without India being a party...

Please mind it i am not saying this is going to happen however one cannot reject such statements as a mere lip service....

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

I am sure after this statement was out your establishment would be doing work on their part to understand what exactly this means and why it was said

we know why it was said. U.S. and Pakistan are allies but there are major areas where our outlook and opinions differ; where priorities do not match.

Our priority is national security and defence of Pakistan from ANY THREAT -internal or external alike. While we eat, sleep, take a sh*t, and go about our day --there are men sitting at a table discussing and doing threat assesments and determining how many resources and measures should be taken to counter a specific known or semi-known threat. india's hegemonic mentality and design (more pronounced post-26/11) is obviously most unhelpful

The Americans are by now smart enough to know our concerns. Whether their Congress members CARE or not, that is their own problem.

The U.S. is not in a situation where they can afford to irritate Pakistan. DEFINATELY not NOW!

There's a huge difference between these newspaper headlines, and other PUBLIC statements versus what is really discussed and goes down in private. So whether there was so-called "misuse'''or not -- it really doesnt damn matter.

dont forget that less than a year ago the american newspapers and media (and of course some bloody senators and congressmen) were complaining about Pakistan Navy modifying American Harpoon missiles such that range was incresed along with capability (added land/sea attack capabilities). Nothing came of that; they made statements, our people made statements. It was eventually just buried under the rug. Whether Pakistan actually did it or not (and I wont/cant comment on that) ---it is irrelevant

You very well know how US sanctions effected your PAF viz-a-viz F16's....It would be a nightmare for PAk if another sanction are imposed but this time without India being a party...

we scaled down the number of orders for the brand new F-16s. Wherever we can indigenize or purchase similar quality product from alternate supplier, we do.


but yes --it would be a nightmare. We're used to it though, it's happened before and it affected us adversely during war-time. Since we are used to it, we are in better position to come up with backup plan and alternate strategies.

Please mind it i am not saying this is going to happen however one cannot reject such statements as a mere lip service....

no, we'll leave the all-talk and lip-service role for the leaders politicians & figureheads of a certain nearby neighbour country

 

[Machoman]

Yea just give us more and we won't use it against India. lol

 

[karan.1970]

How do you know that it was not dollars that resulted in this statement ??? You very well know we have many goodies like MRCA and much more to keep people interested....Secondly when it comes to Diplomacy you always keep the pressure high when it comes to your interests....US has definitely hurt our interests from the say Pakistan became their ally...Their role in 1971 is still not gone from India phyche...So better to keep Uncle Sam under the impression that if you need a slack of our pie(India's Huge Market) better keep a check on your defence deals....

This statement was just some lip service in my view, specially coming from the envoy in India.. Actually I go with MMS when he says that he talks to Obama about Pakistan only when Obama wants to know about his perspective on how things are going in the neighbourhood.

Our discussions with Western world should be on more important topics.. specially economy and trade.. All these other items will fall in place.. Given a choice, would I rather focus on preventing a sale of 20 jets to Pakistan or on getting americans to partner with us in over $100 billion worth of infrastructure development.?? All our confidence to match and exceed any gifts from US to Pakistan of F 16s etc is based on our strong economic growth. Thats where focus needs to be.. Once that is in place, the irritants like sponsored insurgency in Kashmir etc will become immaterial.. See China..

Agreed ....However state of art weapons will be more of a headache for our military establishment than AF....Remember any influence that India would gain in AF is only bonus since we had none a decade back....

If we have enough presence in AF(Non military even), it will keep Pakistan unbalanced enough to provide a let up in Kashmir.. Remember 1965 when attack in Pakistan Occ Kashmir relieved pressure from Operation Gibralter. Afghanistan has the potential to do the same with the insurgency in Kashmir...

 

[deckingraj]

we know why it was said. U.S. and Pakistan are allies but there are major areas where our outlook and opinions differ; where priorities do not match.

Our priority is national security and defence of Pakistan from ANY THREAT -internal or external alike. While we eat, sleep, take a sh*t, and go about our day --there are men sitting at a table discussing and doing threat assesments and determining how many resources and measures should be taken to counter a specific known or semi-known threat. india's hegemonic mentality and design (more pronounced post-26/11) is obviously most unhelpful

You are very wrong there about your assesment of hegemonic mentality but anyways its your view and you are most welcome to keep it the way it is....

The Americans are by now smart enough to know our concerns. Whether their Congress members CARE or not, that is their own problem.

Good for you...However lets not undermine the importance of congress members...They can put pressure on Govt to change..they have done in the past and they can do it in future...that is why you need to use your lobby(which you do) to keep them on same page....

The U.S. is not in a situation where they can afford to irritate Pakistan. DEFINATELY not NOW!

Bolded part is important in my opinion..However its a two way street...

There's a huge difference between these newspaper headlines, and other PUBLIC statements versus what is really discussed and goes down in private. So whether there was so-called "misuse'''or not -- it really doesnt damn matter.

Sorry but have no access to what is being really discussed apart from these headlines...Do you??? Anyways it would be kiddish to ignore comments made in Press...

dont forget that less than a year ago the american newspapers and media (and of course some bloody senators and congressmen) were complaining about Pakistan Navy modifying American Harpoon missiles such that range was incresed along with capability (added land/sea attack capabilities). Nothing came of that; they made statements, our people made statements. It was eventually just buried under the rug. Whether Pakistan actually did it or not (and I wont/cant comment on that) ---it is irrelevant

Sir this is congressman speaking....Press is just sharing his comments...Anyways how do you know nothing come out ...just kidding...There is a difference b/w Press finding out something and making hue and cry about it vs sharing an official statement....

we scaled down the number of orders for the brand new F-16s. Wherever we can indigenize or purchase similar quality product from alternate supplier, we do.

Good for you...However looking at your current needs(threat perception) vs your indegenous capabilities and support from China you still have a significant dependency on US and other western countries to give you that killer punch....

but yes --it would be a nightmare. We're used to it though, it's happened before and it affected us adversely during war-time. Since we are used to it, we are in better position to come up with backup plan and alternate strategies.

I never said you will not be able to cope with it...but lets be honest it would make it very difficult to you...On one side you have ever growing india on other side you have Pakistan crippeled by US sanctions...this is nothing less than your worst nightmare....

no, we'll leave the all-talk and lip-service role for the leaders politicians & figureheads of a certain nearby neighbour country

Up to you...I did explain you why such things should not be taken lightly...We have nothing to loose and if pressure worked you have lot of things at stake...

 

[deckingraj]

This statement was just some lip service in my view, specially coming from the envoy in India..

No Karan...if we go by that logic then every damn thing politicians say is nothing but lip service...Consider this if India and Pak go for a war don't you think US will be neutral if not come all the way to support India(Long term interest)??? Don't you think that use of weapons by Pak can then lead to sanctions??? Anyways feel free to disagree because in the end only time will tell if this is lip service or not...

Actually I go with MMS when he says that he talks to Obama about Pakistan only when Obama wants to know about his perspective on how things are going in the neighbourhood.

I go with his words as well...However that doesn't mean Indian string lobby presence in US is also doing the same....

Our discussions with Western world should be on more important topics.. specially economy and trade.. All these other items will fall in place.. Given a choice, would I rather focus on preventing a sale of 20 jets to Pakistan or on getting americans to partner with us in over $100 billion worth of infrastructure development.??

Any sane person will choose that...and I know you are one...So no issues with that...However if we look into History Pakistan Army is known for taking bold but conceptually weak steps which are based on some fantasy assumptions....The moment Pakistan got her nukes test there comes the Kargil even though a bus Yatra was on to resolve issues......Their success in Sir Creek and India's debacle in 1962 lead them to 1965 war....So you never know...

All our confidence to match and exceed any gifts from US to Pakistan of F 16s etc is based on our strong economic growth. Thats where focus needs to be.. Once that is in place, the irritants like sponsored insurgency in Kashmir etc will become immaterial.. See China..

Negative...IMO our border with China is peaceful and that's why insignificant...Try to fuel Tibet region with some support and see the real face of dragon...so comparing CHina border with Kashmir irritant is like comparing apples with peanuts...

If we have enough presence in AF(Non military even), it will keep Pakistan unbalanced enough to provide a let up in Kashmir.. Remember 1965 when attack in Pakistan Occ Kashmir relieved pressure from Operation Gibralter. Afghanistan has the potential to do the same with the insurgency in Kashmir...

No Buddy...You ar eonly partly right...India's presence in AF non-militarily cannot negate the fact that western border will be having killer machines...Again as i said 18 odd F16's won't be a big headache for us however if you are in a position to deny even peanuts to adversary then why not...We should at least try and this statement from congressman is a welcome step in that regard....

 

[4arlover]

You are also right dear !!!
Pakistan Zindabad