Anti-Turkism, also known as Turcophobia

[Bismarck]

Ottoman was Islamic not Turkish nationalist anyway.

Ottoman means an ethnic group (turks). Islam is a religion. So, first they (Ottoman) are turks, their unchangeable ethnic identity. As a second they are Islamic nation.

Every Turk can be a muslim, but not every muslim can be a turk. Somethings are unchangeable.

Ottoman Empire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Targon]

Ottoman isn't an ethnicity, ethnic identity was Turk.

 

[Bismarck]

Ottoman=Turk

 

[Targon]

Not its not Ottoman is just the name of the dynasty it doesn't spesify ethnicity.

 

[ELTurco]

Not its not Ottoman is just the name of the dynasty it doesn't spesify ethnicity.

but dynasty members origin belong to Oghuz Turks.

 

[Targon]

Yes they're, but "Ottoman" isn't an ethnicity.

 

[Bahoz]

I thought the sultans were of various ethnicity and not just Oghuz Turks or Central Asian Turkic.

 

[Targon]

How can they be from different ethnicities when they're from same family ? most of them had mothers from different ethnicities but it doesn't changes the situation.

 

[mehmet75]

The name of the empire was "devlet-i Alî" , the founder family was turk and muslim. But many citizens, burocrats, officers, ministers, vezirs were christians, ortodoks, jewesh .. So for real : it was a secular empire.

Only after the christian peoples and states earn their independence ( balkans), just muslim states stayed ( in 19th century). So empire began to say strongly that : he is khalife and leader of muslims. He tried muslim states not start an internal war. But it didnt work at all again. they seperated too..

it was istanbul which stayed alone .At last nationalist Turks gave their independence war too, and found Turkiye.. they kicked off sultan and family..

So that "empire" was not turk or muslim or another else. it was just another family and burocratic new roman empire. that empire had many campaigns to turk etnic people and states. like celali , safevi, timurlenk ...

The pure turkic state was "selçuklu" in anatolia. And respectly their civilization was higher than ottoman. travel in anatolia, you will see selçuklu civilization and tresures.

Off course ottoman family was turk originily and has done many services to Turks. But their empire was just an empire.

 

[Targon]

No not really, Seljuks were worse then Ottomans in that comparison, Ottomans at least retained Turkish as official language, in Seljuks ,Turkish remained as a daily speaking language.

They were also even less strict then Ottomans on non-muslims, besides Turkish as daily spoken language, and Persian and Arabic in court, Greek is also used, sometimes even in official writtings, but usually as one the daily languages.

As the book says "Seljuks were Turkmens, they said they were brothers but didn't done anything good for their people"

 

[mehmet75]

i think you should read those books again. and really what books are they? almost all of the medreses, hans, kervansarays and mosques in anatolia are made by selcuklu and also you shall read about karamanoglu mehmet bey who makes turkish is official language in anatolian selcuklu state.

 

[Targon]

Seçere i Terakime, Ebu'l Ghazi Bahadir Khan.

How exactly building mosques and caravanserais is related to being "purely Turkic"

Karamanoğlu Mehmed Bey captured Konya from Seljuks and declared Turkish the official language, you know why ? because non of the official Seljuk documents were written in Turkish, he couldn't understand official documents thats why he banned other languages.

 

[mehmet75]

you are not saying different thing. you talk about first times of selcuklu, i talk about selcuklu when it be a turkic state .. and you are wright about it. at first times of selcuklu persian state manners and language had influance on selcuklu. but then after turkic wing ruined anatolia and used turkish as official. ottoman family cut many karaman, turk heads in anatolia and made the survivors move to balkans. today we know them muhacir, but most of theirs origin is karamanoglu and selcuklu. they are kinik boyu turks. it is just one another story that ottoman was not turkic empire.

 

[telkon]

truth is, neither seljuk dynasty nor ottoman identified themselves as turks. in contemporary literary works it's clearly seen that seljuks call themselves just seljuks and other turkics as turks (and it's used in pejorative meaning). ottomans were much more worse than seljuks. they saw ordinary turks of anatolia as scum, barbaric and uncivilised.

 

[Targon]

No, not much true.

Both Ottomans and Seljuks knew they were Turks and openly stated that, its just lets say they were not much enthusiastic about ethnic stuff.

On Ottomans perceive of Turks, well its not that simple, as I said in my older posts, there was even a kind of proto Turkic nationalism in early Ottoman period until end of the 15th century, why a negative attitude started among Ottoman upper class in following periods ?

1)Political, almost all of the main enemies of Ottomans in the east were Turkic(roughly), Karamanids, Timurids, Akkoyunlu, Safavids, there was also a constant unrest in Anatolia, mainly caused by Turkic nomads.

2) In addition to these, Ottomans were now a multiethnic empire, they didn't needed claim for rule, they didn't needed to strictly bound themselves to a certain ethnicity, especially an ethnicity that does the stuff in 1).

3) The negative attitude was againts the semi-nomadic, rebellious life style, rather then the entire ethnicity itself, that attitude was not just againts Turks, but other similar people as well.