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Anti-Islamic dictator of secular Uzbekistan dies at 78.

Are muslims subjugated in muslim majority countries that fundementally epitomises seculairsm


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Just that I found it full of irony that you worked yourself up at a low level dictator but have as the name chosen, one of the most ruthless mass killers of all time......and no, it wasn't just his followers, Chingis Khan planned & waged most of his wars and was present at the sites where the greatest massacres took place. At Samarkand, when some muslim soldiers (about a 1000) who didn't surrender & took refuge in a mosque thinking Allah would protect them & that the Mongols would not attack it, the Mongols used flaming arrows & probably catapult hurled burning oil completely destroying it before they began their general massacre of the population.In Turkmenistan and Afghanistan, the populations massacred reached incredible figures, He was without doubt an extraordinary General but seems odd when you hold the views that you do (& seem religiously inclined) to use the name you do.
Well that's how the things were back then. I know Chengis conquest. Also know his muslim followers made Skull towers of Hindus. How about comeback to years 2016.

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Well that's how the things were back then. I know Chengis conquest. Also know his muslim followers made Skull towers of Hindus. How about comeback to years 2016.

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:D Just a quick history reminder, could resist commenting on the irony. Carry on....
 
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may Allah forgive him , he saved uzbek people from self blowing terrorists.. He kept uzbek nation united for decades, My salute to the dictator, hope next dictotor will also rule with iron fist otherwise there is no hope of peace in central asia..
 
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Why would I offer my condolences?

Secularism is not inherently Anti-Islam or Anti-Muslim. Separation of church and state is not meant to be used to target a group/religion. In fact it is supposed to protect others and peoples of different religions. When one uses secularism to justify the repression and oppression of certain religious groups shows they are not properly upholding secularism.

It must be emphasized that true secularism is not opposed to religion, and a secular democratic state will not only eliminate ethnic and religious discrimination, such as pitting Shiites against Sunnis, but will also create the conditions for the religious people to practice their beliefs free of the government. The regimes that claim to be based on religion have, in fact, transformed religion to something akin to governmental orders and intervene in the moral relation between the pious people and their God. At the same time though, “fundamentalist secularism” also intervenes in people’s religion because it is anti-religion. A true secular democracy only separates religion from governance.

Good point. In theory it all sounds good, just like ISIS manifesto of bring back golden Islamic governance, but we all know how oppressive and dictatorial secular and semi secular regimes are, specially in muslims majority countries. I am not gonna even debate about how separation of church and states fit into mainstream Islam, how and why separation of church and states evolved in west and now whole heartedly being accepted and preached by church, what does it have to do with muslims, their culture, history and religious doctrine.

:D Just a quick history reminder, could resist commenting on the irony. Carry on....
Sorry mate, You were trying to make a smartass argument based on user ID, than an irrelevant 800 year old historical account using bollywood style drama approach. :enjoy:
 
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..and Stalin like dictators suits you, that hangs people like you upside down for speaking up and force your women to walk like an item on the streets.
Stalin and taliban jihadis kharjis terroist are same thing using violence as a tool to implement their will .and stalin wasnt a Secular he was a ruthless dictator . Well all Western countries are all Secular leading in every field Nome of them allows a religious type.rules in their countries and they have law and order prosperity . Various Muslims countries which are Secular are.prosperous
 
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Stalin was communist different thing closely released to jihadis kharjis type without religion using violence as a tool to implement their rule and control. So u mean every guy who commits crime doesn't practice his religion is Secular wrong . Secular means a guy practice his religion and doesn't enforces his religious rules in ither. Well all European countries are all Secular vs Muslims countries where terror is there daily.lifestyle. women's treated lower than animals
You talking gibberish, usually Ayatollah rats bring up kharji rhetoric in every argument. Not sure which one are you, false flag or a rat.
 
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Brag all you want. Reality is it is safer for China and India if central asian muslim countries continue to remain secular.
If they turn to Islamisation like some religious fanatics rant then there won't be peace in central asia as well causing more insurgency in Xinjiang and Kashmir threatening whole of Asia's peace.
 
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http://www.islam21c.com/politics/how-to-react-to-the-death-of-president-karimov/

karimov.png


How to react to the death of President Karimov

Qatāda b. Rib’i reported that the Messenger (sall Allāhu ʿalayhi wa sallam) said:

“…(the death of) a wicked person relieves the people, the land, the trees, (and) the animals from him.”[1]

President Islam Karimov of Uzbekistan, who was responsible for gross abuses towards human beings and excessive persecution of Muslims under the banner of preventing “Islamic fundamentalism”, has died suffering a stroke.[2] Only Allāh knows the final abode, whether Paradise or Hell, of any specific person but a Muslim rejoices or is saddened by what is apparent of good action and beliefs or otherwise, while Allāh alone knows what is concealed and beyond our cognition.[3] As such, as Muslims we rejoice in relief as the tyrant and oppressive dictator of 27 years can no longer bring harm to the Muslims of his nation.

Amongst President Karimov’s abuses are cases of torture, persecution, kidnapping, execution, detention, massacre, forced child labour, and censorship of freedom of expression and religion.[4][5][6][7] According to the World Report, in 2011 alone:

Uzbekistan’s human rights record remains appalling, with no meaningful improvements […] Torture remains endemic in the criminal justice system. Authorities continue to target civil society activists, opposition members, and journalists, and to persecute religious believers who worship outside strict state controls.

Freedom of expression remains severely limited. Government-sponsored forced child labour during the cotton harvest continues. Authorities continued to deny justice for the 2005 Andijan massacre in which government forces shot and killed hundreds of protestors, most of them unarmed.

It was documented that Uzbek authorities regularly threatened, imprisoned, ill-treated, and tortured human rights defenders and other peaceful civil society activists under President Karimov’s rule. With torture rampant in Uzbekistan and occurring with near-total impunity, the rights of detainees were violated at each stage of investigations and trials while they were forbidden access to lawyers.[8]

During Karimov’s 27 years as dictator, his authorities continued their unrelenting, multi-year campaign of arbitrary detention, arrest, and torture of Muslims who practiced their faith. Innocent Muslim detainees were beaten with clubs, electrocuted and starved for up to six days, a report has said. Some were given state-appointed lawyers who ignored their pleas, knew about the torture, but never requested medical expertise.

Speaking on the motives behind Karimov’s indiscriminate torture of religious and political prisoners, Daniil Kislov, a Moscow-based analyst, told news outlets,

[Karimov’s] Islam is stagnant, official, dead. It pours from TV screens, from the mouths of government-fed imams. The other Islam that is alive and social is a terrible threat to him and is impossible to tame. This Islam is close to civil activism that undermines his power, and that is why Karimov wants to destroy it.”[9]

Despite Karimov’s tyrannical rule over his nation and his oppression over Uzbekistan’s Muslims, it is a comfort to every oppressed people to know, as Allāh says, “for every term there is an appointment”[10] and He says: “And every nation has its appointed term; when their term comes, neither can they delay it nor can they advance it an hour (or a moment).”[11] Regardless of Karimov’s status, he is now facing the true reality and is being held answerable for his every action in his life.

Do we express joy at the demise of an evil person?

The scholars of the past cautioned others with regards to evil figures during their lifetime. Rather than crying and beseeching Allāh’s mercy for them when they had parted, these scholars would continue to elucidate the reality of their evil teachings, and oppressive nature, rejoicing at their demise and congratulating one another with respect to this.

On the authority of Hammād, who said: “I delivered the good news to Ibrāhīm (al-Nakh’y) surrounding the death of al Hajjaj (the known Umayyad dynasty tyrant who killed ʿAbdullāh b. Az Zubair (raḍiy Allāhu ʿanhu) who then prostrated in thanks to Allāh, weeping out of joy.” When Tāwus became sure of al Hajjaj’s death, he exclaimed: “so the roots of the people who did wrong were cut off. And all the praises and thanks be to Allāh, the Lord of all that exists.”[12] Al-Ḥasan al-Basri further fell into thankful prostration whilst hiding, as did ʿUmar b. ʿAbd al-ʿAzīz.

Bishr al-Muraysi (d. 218AH) was an adamant follower of the Mu’tazilī doctrine and a strong supporter of its heretical teachings. When news spread of his death, it reached Bishr b. al-Hārith while he was in the marketplace who exclaimed: “were it not to draw attention it would be an occasion of gratitude and prostration (to Allāh). All praise is due to Allāh, the One who caused him to die.”[13]

It was said to Imām Aḥmad b. Hanbal: “one feels happy at what is happening (of calamity) to the friends of Ibn Abī Du’ād (an ardent Mu’tazili). Is this (feeling) sinful?” He replied: “and who does not rejoice at this?”[14]

Salamah b. Shabīb said: “I was with ʿAbdul Razzaq (Imām al-San’any) so we received news that ʿAbdul Majīd had died so he (al Sa’any) said: ‘all praise is due to Allāh that he had relieved theUmmah of Muḥammad from ʿAbdul Majīd.’”[15] ʿAbdul Majīd is the son of Abū ʿAzīz b. Abī Ruwād, the leader from the Murji’ah.

And when the news of the demise of Wahb al-Qurashy, a misguided individual who would misguide others, came to ʿAbdulraḥmān b. Mahdy, ʿAbdulraḥmān said: “all praise is due to Allāh for having rid the Muslims from him.”[16] In ‘Al Bidayah wal Nihaya’, Ibn Kathīr comments regarding one of the head innovators after his death: “Allāh relieved the Muslims from him, in this year during the month of Dhul Hijjah. He was buried in his own home, then transferred to the burial ground of Quraish, so to Allāh belongs praise. When he died, all of Ahl al-Sunnah rejoiced, every single one of them showed their gratitude to Allāh.”

Karimov’s death is a relief to the Ummah for it is to be rid of one who harmed our fellow Muslims and spread corruption on the earth. We praise Allah and have hope in His justice, we pray that He relieve the suffering of the Uzbek Muslims and we trust in Allāh’s support of our oppressed brothers and sisters around the world.

Beware of the supplication of the oppressed, for there is no barrier between it and Allah.”[17]
 
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Why would I offer my condolences?

Secularism is not inherently Anti-Islam or Anti-Muslim. Separation of church and state is not meant to be used to target a group/religion. In fact it is supposed to protect others and peoples of different religions. When one uses secularism to justify the repression and oppression of certain religious groups shows they are not properly upholding secularism.

It must be emphasized that true secularism is not opposed to religion, and a secular democratic state will not only eliminate ethnic and religious discrimination, such as pitting Shiites against Sunnis, but will also create the conditions for the religious people to practice their beliefs free of the government. The regimes that claim to be based on religion have, in fact, transformed religion to something akin to governmental orders and intervene in the moral relation between the pious people and their God. At the same time though, “fundamentalist secularism” also intervenes in people’s religion because it is anti-religion. A true secular democracy only separates religion from governance.



  • You are a secularists who promote the kufr of secularism and this karimov guy is a warrior of secularism. SO just thought you may consider him your ideological hero. You may not agree with his version of secularism but he was fundementally secular and if you see this thread many of your secular compatriots did offer condolences to their hero.

  • Islam does NOT allow separation of religion from politics. Secularism is an alien western ideology coined by western philosophers in response to particular western problems in a particular time and place. The muslim world never had any problems like the west had with catholic christianity. Secularism in the muslim world is a western neo-colonial project meant to lobotomies muslims and turn them into western slaves who can't think for themselves and need western help.

  • Secularism is essentially based on the flawed atheistic concept that all religions are man-made anyway and that there is no clear truth. Hence human logic should be the only criterion for legislation and governance but at the same time it completely removes religious principles from governance. But logic most of the times is nothing but conjecture and desires. It is shaped by culture, circumstance and tradition. What's logical to an egyptian is NOT logical to a german. Human's are rudderless ship without religion since there is no objective morality without religion. There is NO compass for judging right and wrong without religion and hence you see all sorts of degeneration going on in the the west like gender equality, gay rights, prostitution and sex industry, neo-liberal capitalism etc etc. Islam is against all these moral and social degeneration. Islam is the ONLY true religion because its the religion of Allaah and Allaah (swt) sent this religion as a mercy to mankind and as such Islam can NOT be compared with other religion that got corrupted by man over time like Christianity that Europe had a problem with. Islam provides the compass guiding logic and reason that secularism can NOT provide.

  • Secularism essentially posits the absurd notion that man’s purpose in life should be separate from man’s affairs in life. Human beings are guided by certain beliefs and values and its absurd to de link these values whether materialistic or not from man's affairs in life and society. Infact secularism does NOT de link values but imposes an western materialistic re-interpretation of man’s purpose of life in place of a former non-materialistic purpose. The purpose of life then becomes non-stop consumerism and hedonism in place of purposes set by Allah (swt) for man.

  • Allah(swt) law is NOT up for debate in any parliament. A muslim simply can NOT do that but that's exactly what secularism is. Its really absurd that you call yourself a muslim but have problem with Allah (swt) law while at the same time you have no problem with Voltaire or Locke's law , who were mere philosophers who deluded themselves with their own conjecture. That's the height of lunacy and intellectual colonization and bankruptcy and that's exactly what secularist in the muslim world are.

  • Secularism is inherently anti-religion since it resulted from opposition to religion in Europe. 40,000 churches were obliterated within 10 years of french revolution not to mention the 1000s of nuns and priest killed. Secularism only tolerates those religions that agree to be subservient to secular diktats. Religion that does NOT do so can NOT be tolerated by secularism by design and this notion is advocated by none other than the founder of secularism John Locke who advocated that a true muslim can NOT be tolerated under secularism since his ultimate loyalty is NOT to the state but religion. Look at France , Germnay, Switzerland , Belgium , Austria , UK- what are they doing in response to the rising islamic expressions of individual muslims in public life? Even though wearing a hijab or not shaking hands with opposite gender should technically be an individual right , the French are saying that such rights can NOT be tolerated since they are political in nature while the swiss are saying that swiss standards of gender equality (note- swiss majority religion called liberalism) should supersede individual right. For Europeans Muslims being true to their religion equals muslims being disloyal to the majority culture and religion which liberal secularism. West is a post-christian socio-political entity and their religion is liberal secularism and they can't tolerate any other religion unless those religion become a lobotomized version of theirs.
 
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You are a secularists who promote the kufr of secularism and this karimov guy is a warrior of secularism. SO just thought you may consider him your ideological hero. You may not agree with his version of secularism but he was fundementally secular and if you see this thread many of your secular compatriots did offer condolences to their hero.

Secularism is not Kufr, the fact that you are saying this shows that you whip this word around to defeat an argument without actually arguing it by making it taboo, this is bullshit.

“My people are going to learn the principles of democracy the dictates of truth and the teachings of science. Superstition must go. Let them worship as they will, every man can follow his own conscience provided it does not interfere with sane reason or bid him act against the liberty of his fellow men.
Mustafa Kemal Atatürk

This superstition of not questioning and challenging conservatives that want to impose their own version of Islam on others. I am not your lap-dog, you are using the whip of kufr to make me follow you like a retarded lacky.

I am not a Fundamental Secularist, But I live in a secular country and love a secular country. I am friends with christians,Jews,Hindus and atheists. Do you think I could have done the same thing in Saudi Arabia? do you think I could have done the same in Afghanistan?

“Those who use religion for their own benefit are detestable. We are against such a situation and will not allow it. Those who use religion in such a manner have fooled our people; it is against just such people that we have fought and will continue to fight.”
Mustafa Kemal Atatürk

Islam does NOT allow separation of religion from politics. Secularism is an alien western ideology coined by western philosophers in response to particular western problems in a particular time and place. The muslim world never had any problems like the west had with catholic christianity. Secularism in the muslim world is a western neo-colonial project meant to lobotomies muslims and turn them into western slaves who can't think for themselves and need western help.

if it hurts Muslims then why are all the Muslims in Canada fine? Muslims in Brazil aren't suppressed and Muslims in Russia are doing great,Muslims before 9/11 were doing FINE, nobody bothered them and weren't treated like shit, you are doing the same thing the Anti-Islam and Anti-Muslim bigots do which is judge a system and a people on the past couple decades which is WRONG

I do not support fundamental secularists because they are using the wrong secularism. Just because I don't think Iran didn't make ISIS or I disagree with you on a topic does not mean I support Extremists of the Secular kind. this is you trying to push an agenda on me.


Secularism essentially posits the absurd notion that man’s purpose in life should be separate from man’s affairs in life. Human beings are guided by certain beliefs and values and its absurd to de link these values whether materialistic or not from man's affairs in life and society. Infact secularism does NOT de link values but imposes an western materialistic re-interpretation of man’s purpose of life in place of a former non-materialistic purpose. The purpose of life then becomes non-stop consumerism and hedonism in place of purposes set by Allah (swt) for man.

Secularism is the notion that the GOVERNMENT is there to uphold the defense,Welfare and protection of its citizens not dictate the rights and wrongs of religion and wether this law or that person is an adherent of a certain faith.

Secularism is the notion that the Government has no right to meddle with a mans purpose or affairs in life except when this man has broken the law or is endangering the welfare of his fellow citizens.

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

This is the basis of what a government should or should not do, this is the basis of secularism


"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed"


This is the basis of secularism and democracy, Not this dictator or trump or the past decade of Anti-Islam and Anti-Muslim bigots.



I am not Pro-Secular for the middle east or majority muslim countries but neither am I for theocracies in the middle east, there needs to be a balance.

We are done here, I care for fundamental secularists like this dictator the same way I like fundamental Islamists like Osama bin Laden, WHICH IS NOTHING.

Cheers mate:cheers:
 
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Secularism is not Kufr, the fact that you are saying this shows that you whip this word around to defeat an argument without actually arguing it by making it taboo, this is bullshit.

It seems you did NOT read my above post , or even if your read it , you are ignorant of both islam and secularism.


“My people are going to learn the principles of democracy the dictates of truth and the teachings of science. Superstition must go. Let them worship as they will, every man can follow his own conscience provided it does not interfere with sane reason or bid him act against the liberty of his fellow men.
Mustafa Kemal Atatürk

This superstition of not questioning and challenging conservatives that want to impose their own version of Islam on others. I am not your lap-dog, you are using the whip of kufr to make me follow you like a retarded lacky.

I am not a Fundamental Secularist, But I live in a secular country and love a secular country. I am friends with christians,Jews,Hindus and atheists. Do you think I could have done the same thing in Saudi Arabia? do you think I could have done the same in Afghanistan?

“Those who use religion for their own benefit are detestable. We are against such a situation and will not allow it. Those who use religion in such a manner have fooled our people; it is against just such people that we have fought and will continue to fight.”
Mustafa Kemal Atatürk

You are Quoting from one of the most bigoted tyrant in world history. Attaturk , the tyrant bigot banned Hijab , forced western clothing , changed arabic script to latin , banned Azan in Arabic and forced turks to make salah in turkish , legalized adultery and promoted all sorts of corruption imaginable. He was an open drunkard. He openly ridiculed Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) and called islam "religion of the Arabs meant to drag turks to arab politics" :


Even before accepting the religion of the Arabs [Islam], the Turks were a great nation. After accepting the religion of the Arabs, this religion, didn’t effect to combine the Arabs, the Persians and Egyptians with the Turks to constitute a nation. (This religion) rather, loosened the national nexus of Turkish nation, got national excitement numb. This was very natural. Because the purpose of the religion founded by Muhammad, over all nations, was to drag to an including Arab national politics.” – Mustafa Kemal


Islamic scholars at the time both inside and outside turkey declared him a kafir. He never bothered putting up any veneer of muslimness in public life either. He was an open enemy of islam and muslims. Far right in europe is yet to produce a ataturk. Why are you quoting from such a vile bigot ? Would you be willing to quote from "my kampf" to defend germans during WWII?

May Allah (swt) never punish or test any other muslim nation with a bigot like ataturk.



if it hurts Muslims then why are all the Muslims in Canada fine? Muslims in Brazil aren't suppressed and Muslims in Russia are doing great,Muslims before 9/11 were doing FINE, nobody bothered them and weren't treated like shit, you are doing the same thing the Anti-Islam and Anti-Muslim bigots do which is judge a system and a people on the past couple decades which is WRONG

Why are you giving me straw men examples of western secular states? Muslims are minorities there. What has muslims living in the west got to do with the fallacy of secular liberalism? Also lets not conveniently forget that muslims migrate to these places from secular muslim majority state including you secular basket case Egypt.

Muslims are also getting the short end of the stick in those countries. Secular liberalism is inherently incapable of tolerating any ideology that reject the premise of secularism. For any beliefs to be tolerated secularism requires that belief to become a lobotomized version of secular liberalism. All religions of the world except Islam have become a lobotomized version of secular liberalism. Muslims are the only group that take their religion seriously and hence you see the hijab, niqab , minaret bans coming up. According to secular liberalism the standards of right and wrong set by secularism trumps freedom of religion eg - according to swiss court muslim girls need to become naked in front of boys in swimming lesson to upheld gender equality. In this case swiss notion of gender equality supersedes the religious freedom of muslim girls. Secularism is an inherently facist and dogmatic ideology. You should know better since you gave the example of a dogmatic facist like ataturk. Kemalism and Kemalist turkey is a clear example of secular intolerance and bigotry.

I do not support fundamental secularists because they are using the wrong secularism. Just because I don't think Iran didn't make ISIS or I disagree with you on a topic does not mean I support Extremists of the Secular kind. this is you trying to push an agenda on me.

Fundemental secularism is real secularism eg. France , kemalist turkey, Tajikistan , Uzbekistan etc. Those systems are purely secular. I think you don't know what secularism is. You should read what the prominent ulemas of secularism like Voltaire and John Locke said about religion. They openly advocated intolerance against certain religions and groups like Islam , since Islam is against fallacious notions that form the foundation of secular liberalism like individualism , absolute freedom of thought, gender equality and sovereignty of nation states/monarch/king/president etc.


Secularism is the notion that the GOVERNMENT is there to uphold the defense,Welfare and protection of its citizens not dictate the rights and wrongs of religion and wether this law or that person is an adherent of a certain faith.

Secularism is the notion that the Government has no right to meddle with a mans purpose or affairs in life except when this man has broken the law or is endangering the welfare of his fellow citizens.

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

This is the basis of what a government should or should not do, this is the basis of secularism


"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed"



As I said you did NOT read my post but jumped to preach me your bibile which is the US constitution and quotes from your hero Ataturk. Go read my post and reply accordingly or do NOT bother. You are wasting both of our times.


This is the basis of secularism and democracy, Not this dictator or trump or the past decade of Anti-Islam and Anti-Muslim bigots.

Trump is secular. He agrees with separation of chruch and state and majority americans are also secular. And yes certain sect of secular Liberalists are anti-muslim bgiots . Its inherent in their religion.



I am not Pro-Secular for the middle east or majority muslim countries

That's good. You have no right to advocate such things either since muslim lands belong to muslims where secularists are a minority enjoying the fruits of post-colonial status quo by being obedient slaves of their western masters.


but neither am I for theocracies in the middle east, there needs to be a balance.

You have a per-concieved notion of terms such as theocracies and those notions are influenced by secular liberal western dogmatism. That's the problem with intellectually colonized individuals - they see everything via western orientalist lens and jump to conclusions.

We are done here, I care for fundamental secularists like this dictator the same way I like fundamental Islamists like Osama bin Laden, WHICH IS NOTHING.

Cheers mate:cheers:

Opposing the struggle against secularism by muslims means indirectly you support the secular dictators like this one. You may not think that but that's what it sadly is. Hope you realize that.

My post may give you a vibe of rudeness but rest assured any such vibes of rudeness is unintended. I have no ill feelings towards you nor hate you for your belief.
 
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It seems you did NOT read my above post , or even if your read it , you are ignorant of both islam and secularism.

I'm more then aware of my religion, I've defended my religion in the U.S from literally thousands. Wether it be my classmates from high school and college, I've even argued with Teachers and professors to the potential detriment of my grades, to Youtube were I've literally argued against 100s of bigots and I have won all of them, while here you are denouncing a fellow muslim.

You are Quoting from one of the most bigoted tyrant in world history. Attaturk , the tyrant bigot banned Hijab , forced western clothing , changed arabic script to latin , banned Azan in Arabic and forced turks to make salah in turkish , legalized adultery and promoted all sorts of corruption imaginable. He was an open drunkard. He openly ridiculed Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) and called islam "religion of the Arabs meant to drag turks to arab politics" :


Even before accepting the religion of the Arabs [Islam], the Turks were a great nation. After accepting the religion of the Arabs, this religion, didn’t effect to combine the Arabs, the Persians and Egyptians with the Turks to constitute a nation. (This religion) rather, loosened the national nexus of Turkish nation, got national excitement numb. This was very natural. Because the purpose of the religion founded by Muhammad, over all nations, was to drag to an including Arab national politics.” – Mustafa Kemal


Islamic scholars at the time both inside and outside turkey declared him a kafir. He never bothered putting up any veneer of muslimness in public life either. He was an open enemy of islam and muslims. Far right in europe is yet to produce a ataturk. Why are you quoting from such a vile bigot ? Would you be willing to quote from "my kampf" to defend germans during WWII?

May Allah (swt) never punish or test any other muslim nation with a bigot like ataturk.

He was an asshole to muslims, I do not deny that but he makes a good point in a couple of quotes, does that mean I support him? Of course not.

But what about him?

“The common understanding among Muslims, no doubt indoctrinated by Western notions, is that a secular state is a state that is not governed by the 'ulama', or whose legal system is not established upon the revealed law. In other words it is not a theocratic state. But this setting in contrast the secular state with the theocratic state is not really an Islamic way of understanding the matter, for since Islam does not involve itself in the dichotomy between the sacred and the profane, how then can it set in contrast the theocratic state with the secular state?”
Syed Muhammad Naquib al-Attas, Islam and Secularism

Is he Anti-Islam?


You never refuted my point, you just went on a rant against Ataturk.

Why are you giving me straw men examples of western secular states? Muslims are minorities there. What has muslims living in the west got to do with the fallacy of secular liberalism? Also lets not conveniently forget that muslims migrate to these places from secular muslim majority state including you secular basket case Egypt.

Muslims are also getting the short end of the stick in those countries. Secular liberalism is inherently incapable of tolerating any ideology that reject the premise of secularism. For any beliefs to be tolerated secularism requires that belief to become a lobotomized version of secular liberalism. All religions of the world except Islam have become a lobotomized version of secular liberalism. Muslims are the only group that take their religion seriously and hence you see the hijab, niqab , minaret bans coming up. According to secular liberalism the standards of right and wrong set by secularism trumps freedom of religion eg - according to swiss court muslim girls need to become naked in front of boys in swimming lesson to upheld gender equality. In this case swiss notion of gender equality supersedes the religious freedom of muslim girls. Secularism is an inherently facist and dogmatic ideology. You should know better since you gave the example of a dogmatic facist like ataturk. Kemalism and Kemalist turkey is a clear example of secular intolerance and bigotry.


How is giving you examples of secular states that don't suppress muslims a straw man? I'm giving you examples of Secular states not oppressing muslim populations, Canada just allowed police women to wear hijab, How are they suppressing Muslims? Muslims aren't getting the short stick, the problem is when Anti-Islam bigots become a thing in that country. People migrate for numerous things, like work, better living conditions and so on not because they are oppressed though sometimes that happens with people in Anti-Islam countries. According to swiss courts women are supposed to swim in the same pool as men in a swimming class not get naked in front of their male counterparts.Last time I checked there is nothing wrong with swimming in the same ocean or sea with men, so why is it a big deal if they have to swim in the same pool with a guy? You don't have to wear a bikini, just wear a one piece. Secularism is inherently fair and just in governance.

As I said you did NOT read my post but jumped to preach me your bibile which is the US constitution and quotes from your hero Ataturk. Go read my post and reply accordingly or do NOT bother. You are wasting both of our times.

The bible is not at all involved in the U.S governance system, quite the opposite and where did I say Ataturk was my hero?

Trump is secular. He agrees with separation of chruch and state and majority americans are also secular. And yes certain sect of secular Liberalists are anti-muslim bgiots . Its inherent in their religion.

It is not inherit in Secularism

Opposing the struggle against secularism by muslims means indirectly you support the secular dictators like this one. You may not think that but that's what it sadly is. Hope you realize that.

My post may give you a vibe of rudeness but rest assured any such vibes of rudeness is unintended. I have no ill feelings towards you nor hate you for your belief.


Opposing the struggles by muslims against secularism, what? where is this so called struggle? I am merely outlining why secularism is not against muslims, that does not mean I support Fundamentals.
 
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