Another ‘blasphemy’ case

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

Brother, you know what our problem is? When we try to implement an Islamic teachings in our system, we do so without looking at the whole picture of those teachings.

Islamic punishment laws are very different from what common people here understand:

1. If a person is found guilty of blasphemy or a heinous crime, a trial should be conducted against that person and only a very pious Qazi or Islamic leader has the 'authority' to carry out that trail.
2. Unless the person is proven guilty, he or she cannot be punished.
3. Mobs or groups of common citizens do not have the right to punish the accused on their own. They should hand the accused to the right authorities for trial.
4. If the person was wrongly accused, than those who accused him are to be punished severly in response.

This is the whole process of Islamic way of punishments.

If we are to implement Islamic teachings in our system, we need to do so in proper context.

Unfortunately, this does not seems to be the case in Pakistan. Our leaders are not implementing Islamic teachings in their full context and thus are doing more harm to Islamic image.

Wow LeGend!!! What a brilliant response... I m sending you a bear hug... that was perfect!!!

 

[GentlemanObserver]

How about starting with building the consensus that secularism is the way forward and not Shariah?

P.S. Thank you for allowing me to speak.

Again you see Valiant i am all for secularism but if in the pursuit of secularism we silence the voices of the masses for those in the niche i don't think that is "Democracy"...

For the people by the people... Remember...

As for Shariah it's applications and interpretations are open to question and i am not a fan so no argument there.

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

How about starting with building the consensus that secularism is the way forward and not Shariah?

P.S. Thank you for allowing me to speak.

The Cannibals are still voting on this issue dear!!!

You are always welcome to participate sir... We are tolerant people and allow difference of opinion...

We would however also recommend you to read the Quran's translation and study Islam and its teachings... We think (me and many others) that Islam is a much superior system than secularism can ever be...

Wish you a good day

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

Again you see Valiant i am all for secularism but if in the pursuit of secularism we silence the voices of the masses for those in the niche i don't think that is "Democracy"...

For the people by the people... Remember...

As for Shariah it's applications and interpretations are open to question and i am not a fan so no argument there.

Dont lie Paladin... You like Zaid Hamid... so you are a fan... just coz you are a Muslim makes you a fan of Islam does nt it

 

[shuntmaster]

A very good question in my view... Islam and Democracy are opposites of each other... our good folks confuse it with election and representation which are also part of Islam... there can be no such thing as an Islamic democracy because democracy gives man the power to legislate on behalf of others, whereas Islam has halal and haram decided by Allah swt... When you bring in Halal and Haram, you do not have a democracy... Our people fail to see this...

Islam in its systems is complete (and has huge depth and details)... It does not need to be attached to communism, capitalism or democracy to function...

Thanks for the quick response. But you have not addressed any of my questions.
What is the process of deciding the head of state/Emir/Caliph/whatever in an purely Islamic state? If it is the most powerful man in the land, then is it same as military dictatorship?
What about the judicial system in an Islamic state? Do the religious scholars/mullahs become the judges? legislation of laws through fatwas?
Im just curious to know how exactly this Islamic state functions, since so many members are firm advocators of Islamic state.

 

[LeGenD]

How about starting with building the consensus that secularism is the way forward and not Shariah?

P.S. Thank you for allowing me to speak.

This is wrong assertion.

When we talk about implementing a system which can pave way for progress, we need to figure out its level of compatibility with the fundamental beliefs of a society. Only than a system can work.

For example; Soviets tried to enforce communist system in Afghanistan. It did not work and you already know the rest.

Shariah based system can work wonders for a society which strongly adheres to Islamic beliefs. However, its implementation should be impartial and 100% according to teachings of Islam.

 

[Valiant_Soul]

Who says its working for them...

Dude... yOu have no idea the kind of corruption that the British MPs are engaged in... people got a glimpse of that a few months ago... Its all forgotten by now...

Democracy is the reason why we are having on going war and conflict in the world!!! Its a system of Cannibals...

Who do we eat today... Valiant Soul? Lets vote

As I said in my post that you have quoted, that it is always the implementation of democracy that would be at fault and not democracy itself.

But in the end, whatever system you incorporate, it is the people who would be the driving force and if they have low morals, then no system would work. Democracy is the most accurate representation of the state of mind of the general populace. If people are not contributing positively, then they themselves are responsible for it and not a single person or a single institution.

Democracy, hence, is the best form of governance in this modern world. The flaws again, are to be attributed to the way (or how effectively) it is implemented.

 

[shuntmaster]

Lets not play on semantics shall we, one man's penicillin is another man's anthrax... There is no miracle cure, REMEMBER THAT

I dont understand what you are trying to say. May be you have responded to someone else's post.

 

[Valiant_Soul]

Again you see Valiant i am all for secularism but if in the pursuit of secularism we silence the voices of the masses for those in the niche i don't think that is "Democracy"...

Indeed, if you suppress voice that is not democracy. But freedom to express yourself should not be taken for granted. For example, by mere expressing yourself, you may be inciting violence, and in that case the more bigger right of people (suppression of violence) will prevail over the lesser right (expression of opinion).

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

I don't understand how this would work. Would non-Muslims be subject to shariah law? How about a dispute involving two people where one is Muslim and the other not? How about non-practising Muslims or those who are not heavily religious?


In my opinion, there should be one law of the land. No exceptions. In a multi-religious society with a full spectrum of relgiosity, the only choice is a secular legal system.

Everyone will be subjected to Shariah... which means that non Muslims will have their cases sorted based upon their religion... (I say this is subject to Shariah because Shariah allows such a provision for non Muslims... not because we hold any thing other than Islam as some sort of justice)...

In our history... numerous times, non Muslims appealed to be ruled according to Shariah rather than their own legislation... In comparison to Judaism and Christianity, Islam is much more merciful and liberating system of justice...

.....

The case between non Muslim vs Muslim can only happen in transactions/economics... so it would be according to Islam because we wont have sicknesses such as Riba which are part of a kufr system... So a Jew or Hindu cannot bring a case against a Muslim saying that the Muslim owes SOOD (usury) to him because he had given a loan...

As for everyday life... such things are not an issue, they get dealt with on common sense... Ali the 4th Caliph had to open a case against a Jew who had stolen his Shield, he brought in his son as witness against the Jew but the judge refused to accept the sons testimony in favor of his father... Ali RA even quoted the hadith saying that Hasan and Hussain (his sons) are the leaders of men in Jannah... implying that they would not lie for sake of their father, but the Judge Qadi Shureeh threw the case out... seeing this the Jew shouted that he indeed had stolen the shield from Ali RA and seeing such justice of Muslims, he proclaimed Shahadah and became a Muslim!!!

Non practicing Muslims better start practicing... It does nt take a lot to please Allah Almighty...

 

[Valiant_Soul]

We would however also recommend you to read the Quran's translation and study Islam and its teachings... We think (me and many others) that Islam is a much superior system than secularism can ever be...

If you can convince everyone then you have must be right. But when you enter into a discussion over such elementary issues, it is best to leave behind the personal beliefs, and participate as impartial observers.

Above all, logic and truth should prevail.

 

[shuntmaster]

Which country today is closest to 100% pure Islamic state? is it Saudi Arabia? Iran? Libya? Any of the gulf/arab country?

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

As I said in my post that you have quoted, that it is always the implementation of democracy that would be at fault and not democracy itself.

But in the end, whatever system you incorporate, it is the people who would be the driving force and if they have low morals, then no system would work. Democracy is the most accurate representation of the state of mind of the general populace. If people are not contributing positively, then they themselves are responsible for it and not a single person or a single institution.

Democracy, hence, is the best form of governance in this modern world. The flaws again, are to be attributed to the way (or how effectively) it is implemented.

No Valiant my friend... Democracy allows complete freedom to legislate... whatever that may be...

This is the reason why some of the rules in the U.K are so ludicrous...

Check out the following...

1. It is illegal to die in the Houses of Parliament
2. It is an act of treason to place a postage stamp bearing the British monarch upside-down
3. In Liverpool, it is illegal for a woman to be topless except as a clerk in a tropical fish store
4. Mince pies cannot be eaten on Christmas Day
5. In Scotland, if someone knocks on your door and requires the use of your toilet, you must let them enter
6. In the UK a pregnant woman can legally relieve herself anywhere she wants, including in a policeman's helmet
7. The head of any dead whale found on the British coast automatically becomes the property of the King, and the tail of the Queen
8. It is illegal not to tell the tax man anything you do not want him to know, but legal not to tell him information you do not mind him knowing
9. It is illegal to enter the Houses of Parliament in a suit of armour
10. In the city of York it is legal to murder a Scotsman within the ancient city walls, but only if he is carrying a bow and arrow

There was a time they had taxes on the number of windows one had in a house!!! Ladies and Gentleman... enjoy and have a laugh at such stupid laws courtesy the ancient democracy of the U.K!!!

 

[GentlemanObserver]

Brother, you know what our problem is? When we try to implement an Islamic teachings in our system, we do so without looking at the whole picture of those teachings.

Islamic punishment laws are very different from what common people here understand:

1. If a person is found guilty of blasphemy or a heinous crime, a trial should be conducted against that person and only a very pious Qazi or Islamic leader has the 'authority' to carry out that trail.
2. Unless the person is proven guilty, he or she cannot be punished.
3. Mobs or groups of common citizens do not have the right to punish the accused on their own. They should hand the accused to the right authorities for trial.
4. If the person was wrongly accused, than those who accused him are to be punished severly in response.

This is the whole process of Islamic way of punishments.

If we are to implement Islamic teachings in our system, we need to do so in proper context.

Unfortunately, this does not seems to be the case in Pakistan. Our leaders are not implementing Islamic teachings in their full context and thus are doing more harm to Islamic image.

pious Qazi

or

Islamic leader

What... Like this guy:

From the horses mouth:
"My MNA's are for Sale... But for the RIGHT PRICE"...

Or maybe this guy:

Or maybe this guy:

Remember Him...

They are "pious" are they not? They are "Islamic Leaders" are they not?

Yet as far as i am concerned i wouldn't trust them with a can of beans let along the state of the nation or the decision to mete our justice...

Unless the person is proven guilty, he or she cannot be punished.

On who is the onus of providing evidence the defendant or the plaintiff....?
How is that evidence weighed?
How can you ensure that the process in unbiased and impartial?

Mobs or groups of common citizens do not have the right to punish the accused on their own. They should hand the accused to the right authorities for trial.

Yet mob justice is exactly what happens...

And what do you mean by right authorities? By right authority do you mean:

Or this:

If the person was wrongly accused, than those who accused him are to be punished severly in response.

Again who is the onus of evidence, how is this evidence collected?
how is it supported and weighed?
is it impartial?

By evidence do you mean a set of documents and case reports including sworn witness testimony or the words of Blial living down the street who "thought" he head the accused say something about "Mohammed"...
But was it a man called Mohammed?or was it the prophet Mohammed...

Who evaluates that, who considers the merit of that argument?

Too many unanswered questions too many ambiguities...

 

[shuntmaster]

Everyone will be subjected to Shariah... which means that non Muslims will have their cases sorted based upon their religion... (I say this is subject to Shariah because Shariah allows such a provision for non Muslims... not because we hold any thing other than Islam as some sort of justice)...

Non practicing Muslims better start practicing... It does nt take a lot to please Allah Almighty...

Will Non-muslims in a pure Islamic state live as Dhimmis?
Will there be be difference between people of the Book ( Christians, Jews) and others (Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists)??