Another ‘blasphemy’ case

[T-Faz]

The emphasis is on well defined ideology, not on the ideology itself.

Whatever unites people is important...No matter how good or bad it looks to the rest of the world.

Well we are supposedly a Muslim nation, isn’t Islam our ideology or is it too complicated and the common man does not understand the basic of it – let alone the concept of an Islamic nation.

Ours wobbles all the time. Started as country conceived purely on religion,then tug of war between those who say religion is backward and those who want to stick to the original ideology.

Pakistan wasn’t conceived on religion but as a state for the Muslims sects of India as a place where they can safeguard their rights. If it was conceived on religion, we would have been an Islamic nation from birth and not through a constitution which came much later. Islam only becomes the state religion during Bhutto’s time.

I am also a confused on the apparent contradiction. If we were conceived purely on religion then that is a well defined ideology and it should have taken us forward. But then I also called religion complicated previously and do not think of it as a basis for a nation in modern times.

No one said religion is backwards either, the power circles had the control and they never implemented religion as a tool for unification but it only came into play when required.

I had many chances of working with Soviet nationals..All had Soviet union and later Russia at their heart..Working for mother Russia,and for the sustainability of their system.The world may say they were brain washed,but the brain wash made them "One" from many..

Why don’t we have Pakistan in our heart then because religion clearly is confusing a significant section of our populace and it did not work? Why don’t we put Pakistan first, Pakistan in our hearts, minds and sleeves.

What is our base? What is our reason to feel proud..if at all we feel proud? For who's greatness,or for what goal we can work together as "one"? Has anybody got the answer?

Our base is our nation – Mera Imaan Pakistan.

We have many reasons to feel proud of – we created a nation with our blood – we raised it from nothing to an admired one – we were the first to voice our opinion for the Muslims and other effected individuals on the world stage – we had the first Noble prize winner in the Muslim world – we fought and survived against much bigger enemies – we created a nuclear bomb which alludes many nations to this day – we are still standing even after taking so many hits.

Makes me feel very proud.

For the greatness of Pakistan and Pakistani’s we can work together as one.

The day we think of Pakistan and Pakistan alone, we will achieve the success we are destined for.

 

[Safriz]

^^ Good reply..we need a stalin..when Chechnya's strictly nationalist population did not listen to his calls for leaving behind localism and join nationalism..In one night thousands of Chechen were loaded on ships and transported to soviet territories far away from Chechnya.Effectively dispersing them .Our localist Baluch,pathan,punjabi and sindhi needs to be scattered....so that we mix together and become one.

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

The only thing that unites us and can give us real progress is our ideology i.e Islam and nothing else...

Personally I dont like Punjabis, Sindhis, Balochis and Pukhtoons... if it were not for Islam, I would have been a nightmare for Pakistan by now... go figure

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

May I ask what ideologies do these stated nations have?

USSR... Communism
USA... Capitalism

China... Previously purely Communism, currently it has a ruling Communist party but it implements Capitalism in its economics...

Pakistan is supposed to be an Islamic state.... but we are a Secular, Capitalist state at present...

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

^^ Good reply..we need a stalin..when Chechnya's strictly nationalist population did not listen to his calls for leaving behind localism and join nationalism..In one night thousands of Chechen were loaded on ships and transported to soviet territories far away from Chechnya.Effectively dispersing them .Our localist Baluch,pathan,punjabi and sindhi needs to be scattered....so that we mix together and become one.

We do not need a Stalin Saf... I would totally disagree with that... we need genuine, sincere, benevolent and enlightened leadership based on Islam... leaders like our best Caliphs...

As for our locals... we are already one... and thats what upsets our enemies the most... that people from different linguistic, geographical regions merged into one country based on Islam... This idea of unity (even though it is not complete) between Muslims, terrifies the hypocrites as well as the kuffar...

 

[Safriz]

We do not need a Stalin Saf... I would totally disagree with that... we need genuine, sincere, benevolent and enlightened leadership based on Islam... leaders like our best Caliphs...

As for our locals... we are already one... and thats what upsets our enemies the most... that people from different linguistic, geographical regions merged into one country based on Islam... This idea of unity (even though it is not complete) between Muslims, terrifies the hypocrites as well as the kuffar...

The word "Caliph" has wider meanings...True that the original 4 caliphs and some others were best rulers in history..But can we have that wisdom and selflessness now?
When Omar used to wander in the cities late in the night to see by himself how his subject are doing,and used to say that even if a dog dies hungry,its my responsibility..When a delegate of a large kingdom came to Mecca looking for the presidential or emperor's palace..People told him that the man resting under the tree with a brick under his head instead of a pillow,that's the Ruler of Islamic caliphate.

Unfortunately...more than "Kuffar" its Muslims who have problems with a Pan Islamic Brotherhood.

About Stalin..i gave the example,because somehow..No matter how controversial his tactics were he made "One" from many..and united a country with many ethnicities....at times forcing some ethnicities to lose their identity by dispersing them.

 

[TARIQ BN ZIYAAD]

The word "Caliph" has wider meanings...True that the original 4 caliphs and some others were best rulers in history..But can we have that wisdom and selflessness now?
When Omar used to wander in the cities late in the night to see by himself how his subject are doing,and used to say that even if a dog dies hungry,its my responsibility..When a delegate of a large kingdom came to Mecca looking for the presidential or emperor's palace..People told him that the man resting under the tree with a brick under his head instead of a pillow,that's the Ruler of Islamic caliphate.

Unfortunately...more than "Kuffar" its Muslims who have problems with a Pan Islamic Brotherhood.

About Stalin..i gave the example,because somehow..No matter how controversial his tactics were he made "One" from many..and united a country with many ethnicities....at times forcing some ethnicities to lose their identity by dispersing them.

assalam alaikum

I would say munafiq muslims or muslim born to muslim parents but ashamed of their religion. Yes they r more dangerous to islam then outsiders.

TARIQ

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

The word "Caliph" has wider meanings...True that the original 4 caliphs and some others were best rulers in history..But can we have that wisdom and selflessness now?
When Omar used to wander in the cities late in the night to see by himself how his subject are doing,and used to say that even if a dog dies hungry,its my responsibility..When a delegate of a large kingdom came to Mecca looking for the presidential or emperor's palace..People told him that the man resting under the tree with a brick under his head instead of a pillow,that's the Ruler of Islamic caliphate.

Unfortunately...more than "Kuffar" its Muslims who have problems with a Pan Islamic Brotherhood.

About Stalin..i gave the example,because somehow..No matter how controversial his tactics were he made "One" from many..and united a country with many ethnicities....at times forcing some ethnicities to lose their identity by dispersing them.

Can we mimic the great Caliphs today is a good topic for discussion... Your point about Stalin uniting people is true BUT he did that with a staunch communist ideology at his back and his tactics were mostly based on brutality!!!

Saf... think about it for a moment... most of our educated class already identifies strongly with Islam and considers them as one Ummah... true there are bad apples amongst us, but we do have good people also... The way to integrate ourselves with each other is to push in the right concepts into the mindset of the society... You have an education system, media, the decisions by politicians... all these things can have a tremendous impact... I dont see any reason to force people to do something like work in a decent job... all that would happen naturally...

Oh and on the issue of Omar RA... My favorite event was when he was walking one day and came across an old lady outside a tent who was saying a lot of bad things about the Caliph... So Omar asked why was she upset and the old lady said that Omar does not know how much trouble she was in... So Omar asked how could Omar know about your problems... and the old lady replied... well if he is not aware of my problems, then he should not be the Caliph!!!!

Give me a leader like that anytime...

 

[T-Faz]

USSR... Communism
USA... Capitalism

China... Previously purely Communism, currently it has a ruling Communist party but it implements Capitalism in its economics...

Pakistan is supposed to be an Islamic state.... but we are a Secular, Capitalist state at present...

Well communism destroyed USSR, it never truly worked for them while Capitalism worked wonders for the countries which followed it.

China has mixed the best of both worlds and is very succesful in its current state.

As for Pakistan, it is not a secular state, a secular state does not have a state religion, a secular state does not have blasphemy laws, a secular state does not have laws based on religion or about religion.

Pakistan is a confused state, it was not meant to be an Islamic state and even if it become one, we do not have the leaders to implement Sharia.

To become succesful, we have to follow the examples around us as China has. It has picked the best of what worked around the world and look at its success.

 

[Safriz]

Well communism destroyed USSR, it never truly worked for them while Capitalism worked wonders for the countries which followed it.

China has mixed the best of both worlds and is very succesful in its current state.

As for Pakistan, it is not a secular state, a secular state does not have a state religion, a secular state does not have blasphemy laws, a secular state does not have laws based on religion or about religion.

Pakistan is a confused state, it was not meant to be an Islamic state and even if it become one, we do not have the leaders to implement Sharia.

To become succesful, we have to follow the examples around us as China has. It has picked the best of what worked around the world and look at its success.

Well...in my opinion a well defined ideology is important..No matter where it comes from...Socialism or communism are not religions...just systems of government...I am ok with Pakistan adopting any of these systems or a mixture,and leave religion to people..The state wont stop anybody and wont make any laws contradictory to Islamic traditions...but saying that "Siyasah" or siyasat is the stage 5 of religious understanding..
Imaaniaat----Understanding of faith
Ibaadaat------Understanding and practical implementation of Prayers
Muaashratt----Understanding and practical implication of social living
Muaashiaat-----Understanding of trade and finances
Siyaasah--------Understanding of Islamic government system

These were the 5 stages in which step by step..Islam was introduced and implemented among people of Arabia..originally..

For example Alcohol was not banned the first day..It was years before Alcohol was finally banned...was it done on the first day..only the elite had complied,the rest couldn't have...Step by step,people were made aware that alcohol is bad,and when the time war right,the Verse banning Alcohol was recited by Holy Prophet PBUH.

We cannot skip the other 4 stages and go straight away to stage 5..wont work..
For that reason i am not in favor of even the idea of Caliphate in this era..It simply wont work.

 

[architect_cobb]

The only thing that unites us and can give us real progress is our ideology i.e Islam and nothing else...

that is not correct. Had that been the case East Pakistan wouldn't have turned into Bangladesh. Real progress and unity have nothing to do with religion. Its just the opposite. You mix religion with nationality and what you end up getting is anybody whom you don't consider to be following your sect is not only a kafir but also ghaddar, which makes the whole concept heretic in itself.

Personally I dont like Punjabis, Sindhis, Balochis and Pukhtoons... if it were not for Islam, I would have been a nightmare for Pakistan by now... go figure

not correct again. There is nothing wrong with being Blaoch, Punjabis, Sindhis , Pukhtoons, Mahajir etc as long as you're a Pakistani as well. Just as being English, Scottish, Welsh or Irish doesn't stop you from being British or a citizen of UK.

Now where does religion come in there? If Islam is the key to being Pakistani then a muslim in Ethiopia or Bosnia would be more of a Pakistani than a christian or hindu in Pakistan. Thats not the case. Please avoid confusing the two issues. Geographical loyalities cannot be mixed/confused with ideological allegiances. Thats a recipe for disaster the kind we face everyday in the streets of Pakistan.

 

[Xestan]

We made this country with the slogan "Pakistan ka mutlub kya LA ILLAHA ILALLAH", so now we are forgetting it, Quaid e Azam was NOT a SECULAR leader, why don't people understand it..

Today, the most funniest thing secularists come up with is Quaid's 11th August speech where his words are misunderstood, Quaid never used the word "Secular" in his any speech, his every speech contained "Islamic Ideology", "Muslims" and other words like these..

When will people understand, ALLAH is the only sovereign, Muslims are bound to follow ALLAH's rules which are sharia'ah otherwise they should wait for azaab, today's generation needs to understand it...

 

[Xestan]

And one more thing, Islam is not a "religion" people, for God sake Muslims, WAKE UP! Islam is a way of life, this is what differentiates Islam from other religions, Islam is a "deen", way of life, from Government rules to personal family matters, a proper and complete way of life.

 

[Xestan]

And about the Blasphemy law, it is completely Islamic and it should remain intact, whatever people may say, this is not gonna change it Insh'ALLAH, whole Muslim ummah has consensus on it.. I actually don't mind whatever rubbish is spoken about these religious matters by ignorants because these discussions won't change ground realities, Majority of people are in favour of a Islamic system and if you can just go to a street and ask a common man what should we do to a Blasphemer, he will answer this question better than us.

So, Stop criticising it, move on and try to ACT like Muslims.

 

[jayron]

And one more thing, Islam is not a "religion" people, for God sake Muslims, WAKE UP! Islam is a way of life, this is what differentiates Islam from other religions, Islam is a "deen", way of life, from Government rules to personal family matters, a proper and complete way of life.

Doesn't every religion claim the same? First stop thinking that islam is superior to other religions. That's the root cause the problem is thinking others are inherently inferior to you.

I know you guy's will say Hinduism has caste system. We know Hinduism has some stupid rules written 2000 yrs ago. But no Hindu will argue caste system or sati is good.