Angry Pakistanis turn against army

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I have read her book....
She was right about zia was she not?
I have always believed that the army should defend the country but not try to run it.......i would not get a car mechanic to carry out heart surgery.
The image of the army is going downhill day by day under mushy and it needs to be reversed.
Can a officer walk around sindh,baluchistan,fata and other parts of pakistan with the security he enjoyed before mushy came in.....i doubt it.
I want the people to hold power not the army.

It is time for them to get out of politics, as part of an overall reform of the system - where we continue to privatize most institutions (so the appointment of ex-military becomes a non-issue) and perhaps by giving the FPSC a lot more autonomy and independence, so that if ex-military officials are appointed to certain posts in the bureaucracy, it is because their skill set matches what is being looked for. Unfortunately PM Aziz was actually responsible reducing the autonomy and powers of the FPSC (reportedly under pressure from PML-Q bigwigs, and bureaucrats), so perhaps the next government can restore that.

Without autonomy for the FPSC and other institutions, accusations will simply shift from the military to the politicians for nepotism, and we are back in the circle where people welcomed the military for taking power from NS.

With respect to Army officers not being able to walk around some parts of Pakistan - that is a reflection more on the intellectual bankruptcy of people in our nation, who have taken the WoT as an affront to Islam, and would rather believe in far fetched conspiracy theories of the "agencies" conducting all this mayhem (primarily directed at their own staff).

This attitude is not something exclusive to Pakistanis - people in general try and focus their anger and put blame on tangible threats, and in Pakistan this is complicated even further because of the intangible threat being linked with Islam. The "agencies", Army, Musharraf, all present tangible symbols that if removed would miraculously sole all of the nations problems. People don't want to deal with the thought of a long struggle against a shadowy enemy, a war to change and win hearts and minds - a war that challenges some of the perceptions that society has taken to heart.

 

[Flintlock]

I am compelled to quote from Kautilya's Arthashastra (The science of statecraft):

According to Kautilya, a Rajarshi (Sage-King) is one who:

* Has self-control, having conquered the inimical temptations of the senses;
* Cultivates the intellect by association with elders;
* Keeps his eyes open through spies;
* Is ever active in promoting the security & welfare of the people;
* Ensures the observance (by the people) of their dharma by authority & example;
* Improves his own discipline by (continuing his) learning in all branches of knowledge; and
* Endears himself to his people by enriching them & doing good to them.

Does Musharraf posses all of these qualities?

 

[Contrarian]

Army lost East Pakistan because of BS politics and not because of lack of passion to defend it.

Another small reason, the Army believed: Defence of East Pakistan lies in West Pakistan. A flawed thinking that made it militarily handicapped in the east. But thats a side issue.

 

[Sam Dhanraj]

people in general try and focus their anger and put blame on tangible threats, and in Pakistan this is complicated even further because of the intangible threat being linked with Islam. The "agencies", Army, Musharraf, all present tangible symbols that if removed would miraculously sole all of the nations problems. People don't want to deal with the thought of a long struggle against a shadowy enemy, a war to change and win hearts and minds - a war that challenges some of the perceptions that society has taken to heart.

Would you suggest that the same attitude lead to this....According to Gallup Survey on Benazir's assasination...(Not that I suggest the results to be 100% representative of Pakistan but I guess this negative trend towards Musharraf and allies should not be ignored either)

The opinion poll, seen Sunday by The Associated Press, showed that 23 percent of Pakistanis suspected government agencies in the slaying, while 25 percent believed government-allied politicians were behind it. Only 17 percent suspected al-Qaida or Taliban

The Hindu News Update Service

 

[Sam Dhanraj]

This is the Press Release of Gallup Survey on Gallup Pakistan Website( in .pdf format)

http://www.gallup.com.pk/Polls/11_1_08.pdf

Public Opinion on
WHO KILLED BENAZIR BHUTTO?
Nearly half of the sample suspected Government agencies (23&#37 and
Government allied politicians (25%). Al-Qaeda or Taliban were suspected by
17%, while 16% suspected other external forces, principally the United States
(12%) and India (4%). 19 % said they would not know.
The view that Government agencies and allied politicians were responsible for
the assassination was higher than the national average among voters of Pakistan
People’s Party (61%).

 

[roadrunner]

Why would the government want Bhutto out of the way, and Zardari in?

 

[dabong1]

Why dont you come back to Pakistan and fight for Democrapy instead of sitting there and airing rehtoric

I think i will stay where i am and watch you support a military dictatorship.

 

[roadrunner]

I think i will stay where i am and watch you support a military dictatorship.

Obviously there's a reason people are supporting dictatorship. Plus you have not given any credible democratic alternatives.

 

[dabong1]

Ironical ....

People having sense can speak so much nonsense!:

I agree!

Army lost East Pakistan because of BS politics and not because of lack of passion to defend it. Plus go read the history of bengal and then get involved in this debate of east pakistan. !:

Bro its you that needs a history lesson if you think the dictatorship at the time was not responsible for the defeat of the pak army in b/desh.

Security problems are a result non compliance to US demands for the tribal and taliban issues. This situation is under control and not beyond the iron fist. Some people in the tribal area are being manupilated by the CIA for their designs and soon they will be buried in tribal areas. :

Mushys total acceptance of every demand by the US has led into this problem.
I thought the taliban had been "buried" a few years back.

If you think that this wheat issue and light issues and sucide bombings can cause a civil war in the country or create a situation of Inarcy then my friend i only have one sentence for you and the people like you!

Talk to the hand!

I hope that works against al qaeda

 

[roadrunner]

Go read the Bangladesh thread. It wasn't dictatorship. It was nationalistic brainwashing that did it.

 

[JK!]

Dabong,

You offer criticisms but no solutions or alternatives.

Offer us an insight into your views on these instead as your anti Pakistani establishment views are old news.

 

[dabong1]

It is time for them to get out of politics, as part of an overall reform of the system - where we continue to privatize most institutions (so the appointment of ex-military becomes a non-issue) and perhaps by giving the FPSC a lot more autonomy and independence, so that if ex-military officials are appointed to certain posts in the bureaucracy, it is because their skill set matches what is being looked for. Unfortunately PM Aziz was actually responsible reducing the autonomy and powers of the FPSC (reportedly under pressure from PML-Q bigwigs, and bureaucrats), so perhaps the next government can restore that.

Without autonomy for the FPSC and other institutions, accusations will simply shift from the military to the politicians for nepotism, and we are back in the circle where people welcomed the military for taking power from NS..

I agree with every point.

With respect to Army officers not being able to walk around some parts of Pakistan - that is a reflection more on the intellectual bankruptcy of people in our nation, who have taken the WoT as an affront to Islam, and would rather believe in far fetched conspiracy theories of the "agencies" conducting all this mayhem (primarily directed at their own staff).

Bro the truth in my opinion is that the WOT is the first shots in war in undermining muslim countries,eventually turning the muslim world into mini states that can be controlled and exploited.

This attitude is not something exclusive to Pakistanis - people in general try and focus their anger and put blame on tangible threats, and in Pakistan this is complicated even further because of the intangible threat being linked with Islam. The "agencies", Army, Musharraf, all present tangible symbols that if removed would miraculously sole all of the nations problems. People don't want to deal with the thought of a long struggle against a shadowy enemy, a war to change and win hearts and minds - a war that challenges some of the perceptions that society has taken to heart.

Musharraf has been in power for just under a decade and things in pakistan for the common man are worse by nearly every indicator.
I hear some people who support mushy say has improved education and more people can read and write and then come out with the excuse that people are illiterate when it comes to voting.

 

[dabong1]

Dabong,

You offer criticisms but no solutions or alternatives..

Free and fair elections....simple

Offer us an insight into your views on these instead as your anti Pakistani establishment views are old news.

I will back any system that lets the people decide there leader,i dont care how well the top 20% of pakistani are doing what i want is a leader or a system that improves the lifes of the bottom 20% of pakistanis.

 

[dabong1]

Go read the Bangladesh thread. It wasn't dictatorship. It was nationalistic brainwashing that did it.

So pakistan was not ruled by a military man during the war was it?

 

[roadrunner]

Bro the truth in my opinion is that the WOT is the first shots in war in undermining muslim countries,eventually turning the muslim world into mini states that can be controlled and exploited.

So this is it? Your reasons for being anti Musharraf are out of concern for the rest of the Muslim world? Forget about Pakistan's interests, put the interests of other Muslim countries first? Why not take down Pakistan's borders while you're at it, so that the country can become a slave to the rest of the Muslim countries?

You're views are warped, you're arguments non existent. For example, mini states cannot be exploited if they are smart enough to be technologically advanced. It is not the size of the state that is important, it is the technology they can produce.

What has made Muslim countries a mess is greed and those people that do things in the interests of other countries, such as yourself (or your opinions on here), Bhutto, Zardari and so on. It let colonialists into the subcontinent, thanks to some butt licking Indians, it gave Pakistan Bhutto who sold her soul to every corrupt, non Pakistani institution on earth, it weakened the central government's position as the media has tried to do, and it generates a lot of chaos.

Pakistan should put itself first, over any other country on earth.