Ancient historical sites in Syria destroyed by the Al-Assad terror regime

[Mosamania]

Yes, exactly. What I liked is the same thing you say. It's also something I try to do. Have my own views. This also gets me in trouble, LOL. We have discussed the MB and Egypt many times and we agree with the fundamentals. He basically wants Islam to be a part of life and believes that political parties based on Islam can do a better job than the secular dictators of that part of the world (Egypt, West Bank government etc.) which I kind of understand. Where are differences begin is how to include those that do not necessarily agree. Again in the ME (regardless of whatever political group we talk about) it is either my way or the highway. There is no tradition of compromises. Hence the extreme. But we want the same aspirations for the people of the region. More direct participation, less corruption, more justice etc.

People in KSA and Iran who have experienced religious rules basically (both ironically since 1979 mostly) due to the Iranian Revolution and the Grand Mosque Seizure in 1979 (rules change dramatically in KSA and this is from this moment onwards that you find some of the laws that I consider outright idiotic in KSA) sort of know life before and after Islam. 120 year ago the ME was basically the same everywhere more or less politically speaking. The law was religious and people were mostly apolitical and how some of our peasants are to this day. Later came European political influences such as nationalism, socialism etc. and the first parliaments etc. emerged. I wish that a lot of things changed in KSA but at the same time I am also realistic and know that Islam is not the problem.

This idiotic and shameful law that prohibits women from driving has for instance nothing to do with Islam and I do not understand why it is still out there. Same with other dumb laws. But does that mean that I want to go "all French Revolution" tomorrow and change the society totally? No, not really. I believe in moderation, improvement (constant) and dialogue. I think that you have similar aspirations. Secular or not let the people decide.

There are many many idiotic laws that need to be changed, and it all starts with taking the clergy out of the internal political sphere in KSA.

 

[ResurgentIran]

Yes, exactly. What I liked is the same thing you say. It's also something I try to do. Have my own views. This also gets me in trouble, LOL. We have discussed the MB and Egypt many times and we agree with the fundamentals. He basically wants Islam to be a part of life and believes that political parties based on Islam can do a better job than the secular dictators of that part of the world (Egypt, West Bank government etc.) which I kind of understand. Where are differences begin is how to include those that do not necessarily agree. Again in the ME (regardless of whatever political group we talk about) it is either my way or the highway. There is no tradition of compromises. Hence the extreme. But we want the same aspirations for the people of the region. More direct participation, less corruption, more justice etc.

People in KSA and Iran who have experienced religious rules basically (both ironically since 1979 mostly) due to the Iranian Revolution and the Grand Mosque Seizure in 1979 (rules change dramatically in KSA and this is from this moment onwards that you find some of the laws that I consider outright idiotic in KSA) sort of know life before and after Islam. 120 year ago the ME was basically the same everywhere more or less politically speaking. The law was religious and people were mostly apolitical and how some of our peasants are to this day. Later came European political influences such as nationalism, socialism etc. and the first parliaments etc. emerged. I wish that a lot of things changed in KSA but at the same time I am also realistic and know that Islam is not the problem.

This idiotic and shameful law that prohibits women from driving has for instance nothing to do with Islam and I do not understand why it is still out there. Same with other dumb laws. But those that mean that I want to go "all French Revolution" tomorrow and change the society totally? No, not really. I believe in moderation, improvement (constant) and dialogue. I think that you have similar aspirations. Secular or not let the people decide.

We are in full agreement.
There was a good saying by our prime minister Mossadeq. I dont know the exact quote, but he said something to the effect of that governments (secular dictators like the Shah) that try to push people away from religion, will only make people gravitate towards their faith and value system. Religious autocrats likewise will have the opposite effect and will make people take distance from the religion that gets shoved down their throats by the government.

All in all, if political Islam is to work, it has to be in a modest form. Other than that, I dont think it has a good future.

 

[Mosamania]

But I am encouraging people here.... You would not want to be a title-holder just like how Armstrong refused to be one. You are smart but more into chit-chat.

This thread has been derailed enough. I will delete this post in ten minute - if I manage to stay awake that long.

Saudis and Iranians are being nice to one another for once, I think it should get a little bit more time, generate more good will.

 

[dexter]

Brother if you are in that "Dajjal and Imam Mehdi" phase, I urge you to put it behind you. Its no use discussing it on this forum. This is not a religion-based forum. These ideals have no practical application. We have to use our heads, and not books.

Please post something relevant to this thread, if you can.

Yeah i understand bro but these are just few words nothing more just my views.
And please dont mind but i always avoid such posts and threads which give free hands to trolls and not to mention im one of the old members of PDF.
And these are not ideals each one is getting true day by day but in the end everyone has their own views.
So thats enough for now.

 

[al-Hasani]

The current clergy form is unsustainable, and there is a lot of disdain from the inside towards them, you do know how the vast majority of the Saudi population currently view Al-Mutawa as of course, especially with the whole Daesh situation they have lost a lot of power and support from both people and government, Minister of Education is currently in the process of eliminating them whole sale from the educational process, because a civil society has never ever been a religious society, and the reasons to eliminate them from the education process and in essence distance them from Saudi society and religious brainwashing is many folds.

The only reason the past way of clerical utopia even exist is due economical dependence on Oil, and if you want to change that you have to eliminate completely all forms of religious involvement in the decision making it is just common sense, you can't have people who still dispute wither the earth is flat or spherical (Al-Fozan *wink wink*) in high governmental positions. It is just down right insane. I for once do not accept a word such a person says, someone who apparently doesn't have the science knowledge of my little toe alone.

The clergy's death sentence was signed twice, once when the internet was allowed despite their continuous pleas to ban it, and the second signature was when King Abdullah ordered the Foreign Grant system in western countries which they opposed vehemently as well to the point where the organized armed resistances against "Western brainwashing of the young", and now the entire ISIS situation was the guillotine with which their execution is being carried out.

The disdain has always been there from large sectors of the country (especially provinces outside of Najd) I believe but people could not really do much and just accepted it as it evolved into a more powerful part of the society (like it ever was not powerful to begin with) but you get my point here hopefully.

What you propose, Mosab, is a complete separation of state and religion. For that to happen a lot of things must change on certain fronts (you know what they are) and also the way we look at our own state.

I see it this way. The clergy and the monarchy are connected. If you want to limit the power of one of them I believe that the other should get their powers limited too. This takes me to another topic which is the need for much more direct participation of our people. I do agree that absolute rule is not the way forward. It works in China because they are a huge, huge country with 1.2 billion people. Imagine democracy there for a second? That's why you only have 2 political parties in the US and the system they have which is vastly different from the ones you see in Europe.

I am as baffled by those clerics as you are and many of their decisions. I believe in reforms too. But I also believe that we must be realistic and take one step at a time. Things are moving in a right direction.

I actually think that the first step in that direction was when women got the right for public education. Even the ultraconservatives who opposed it turned around in an instance and wanted more of their daughters to be taught at public schools.

But I agree. If KSA wants to become a fully industrialized nation we must separate religious teachings and science. There is no other solution. If you notice this was also the case during the Caliphates when the clergy was one body and the scientists/philosophers/thinkers/artists etc. another.

The world has changed dramatically in the last 100 years. The ultraconservatives that in many ways live in an Utopian imagination should understand that.

I do not have any worries about our people as such. We have one of the youngest populations out there, we are the biggest users of social media such as Facebook, Twitter, we have the highest number of students abroad of ANY Muslim nation by far and we are in many ways already a modern country de facto despite having some idiotic laws.

What pisses me off is that those changes should have been made earlier. We don't even need to look that far. We can look at our neighbors and their systems. Look at UAE. Kuwait etc.

 

[Chak Bamu]

Saudis and Iranians are being nice to one another for once, I think it should get a little bit more time, generate more good will.

Internet Mullahs will not let that happen. Their vision is extreme and they do not like seeing people getting along. They think it makes them and their ideas irrelevant.... and to them that is a scary thought.

So, you can try to respect one another despite differences today, but in few hours you will see a thread that will be a troll-fest. You have to have a good deal of self-discipline to resist. If you look at Indian title-holders, you would find exceptional people. They keep cool and argue logically and refuse to be provoked.

 

[MoshteAhani]

Internet Mullahs will not let that happen.

And what is this supposed to mean mate ? lol....
The people you mentioned are not active in the way you think. Almost all Iranians on the internet are regular dudes like myself, mohsen and others.

 

[Green Arrow]

Historic Islamic sites in Syria should be protected as it reflects our culture and history.

 

[ResurgentIran]

Internet Mullahs will not let that happen. Their vision is extreme and they do not like seeing people getting along. They think it makes them and their ideas irrelevant.... and to them that is a scary thought.

So, you can try to respect one another despite differences today, but in few hours you will see a thread that will be a troll-fest. You have to have a good deal of self-discipline to resist. If you look at Indian title-holders, you would find exceptional people. They keep cool and argue logically and refuse to be provoked.

Yeah you have to be

lol
Not a lot of people can do it.

Anyhoozles, Im off to bed. Early day tomorrow. I hope the good atmosphere continues but I do share Chak's skepticism. hehe
Good night everyone

 

[al-Hasani]

We are in full agreement.
There was a good saying by our prime minister Mossadeq. I dont know the exact quote, but he said something to the effect of that governments (secular dictators like the Shah) that try to push people away from religion, will only make people gravitate towards their faith and value system. Religious autocrats likewise will have the opposite effect and will make people take distance from the religion that gets shoved down their throats by the government.

All in all, if political Islam is to work, it has to be in a modest form. Other than that, I dont think it has a good future.

This is a very, very wise comment. Everything in the right doses as I use to say. Add a bit too much and it will not be tasty. Unfortunately parties in the ME tend to be extreme in their views and not very flexible. Either my way or the highway as I have mentioned a few times. This created dictatorships and the differences become big which can lead to violence. In Europe and elsewhere you can have huge, huge political differences but afterwards you will be able to sit down anyway. In the ME? No way. In most cases at least.

A healthy middle ground should be found. Religion can even help with that on some issues.

Yeah you have to be

lol
Not a lot of people can do it.

Anyhoozles, Im off to bed. Early day tomorrow. I hope the good atmosphere continues but I do share Chak's skepticism. hehe
Good night everyone

LOL. The most important thing is not whether there will be future discussions (heated based on political differences) there will probably be that. The point is that we can act normally and have serious discussions despite that and still respect each other as in this thread. We will keep getting along anyway. Even if we started discussing who has the best dates or flatbread tomorrow.

I do agree that it is useless, unnecessary and drags the forum down but PDF and most other forums would lose 80% of their traffic if there never were such kind of discussions. Even during the most heated discussions you can learn something.

I have to go as well. Or at least I should as I have work to done.

Take care mate. Tak for i dag.

 

[RazPaK]

Why are Arabs and Iranians not fighting?

OMG this is BS.


This is not why I come to the forum............................................................

 

[al-Hasani]

Why are Arabs and Iranians not fighting?

OMG this is BS.


This is not why I come to the forum............................................................

Where are our Jewish cousins? The Indians? Mate, you must have the highest bounty among the Indian users on PDF. They hate your guts it seems.

 

[Mosamania]

The disdain has always been there from large sectors of the country (especially provinces outside of Najd) I believe but people could not really do much and just accepted it as it evolved into a more powerful part of the society (like it ever was not powerful to begin with) but you get my point here hopefully.

What you propose, Mosab, is a complete separation of state and religion. For that to happen a lot of things must change on certain fronts (you know what they are) and also the way we look at our own state.

I see it this way. The clergy and the monarchy are connected. If you want to limit the power of one of them I believe that the other should get their powers limited too. This takes me to another topic which is the need for much more direct participation of our people. I do agree that absolute rule is not the way forward. It works in China because they are a huge, huge country with 1.2 billion people. Imagine democracy there for a second? That's why you only have 2 political parties in the US and the system they have which is vastly different from the ones you see in Europe.

I am as baffled by those clerics as you are and many of their decisions. I believe in reforms too. But I also believe that we must be realistic and take one step at a time. Things are moving in a right direction.

I actually think that the first step in that direction was when women got the right for public education. Even the ultraconservatives who opposed it turned around in an instance and wanted more of their daughters to be taught at public schools.

But I agree. If KSA wants to become a fully industrialized nation we must separate religious teachings and science. There is no other solution. If you notice this was also the case during the Caliphates when the clergy was one body and the scientists/philosophers/thinkers/artists etc. another.

The world has changed dramatically in the last 100 years. The ultraconservatives that in many ways live in an Utopian imagination should understand that.

I do not have any worries about our people as such. We have one of the youngest populations out there, we are the biggest users of social media such as Facebook, Twitter, we have the highest number of students abroad of ANY Muslim nation by far and we are in many ways already a modern country de facto despite having some idiotic laws.

What pisses me off is that those changes should have been made earlier. We don't even need to look that far. We can look at our neighbors and their systems. Look at UAE. Kuwait etc.

The clergy and the monarchy are NOT connected, a faction of the monarchy is connected to the clergy true, but not the entire monarchy, the previous faction were the biggest allies of the clergy, and with the death of their two members who were in line to the throne they have been effectively decapitated, their sons kicked from offices and their presence degraded from the most powerful faction to the least powerful of the three major ones. Unless you are close to the monarchy you won't even know of such a thing existing but I was born in a family with close ties to the monarchy and hence my broader understanding.

The current faction alliance established to offset the previous one, led separately by Talal from one hand and Abdullah from the other emerged victorious over the previous faction which was closely allied with the clergy, the clergy is currently in a one way train to oblivion inside of Saudi Arabia, and ISIS is extremely popular with the clerical organization in Saudi Arabia due it being a breath of fresh air from what the currently deem oppression from the monarchy, and the RSAF bombing them is more of a message to the clerical establishment that their time has come to an end, and if they seek to be removed by force, then they are welcome to try. In short, currently the Liberals are in control of Saudi Arabia, Al-Tuwaijri the lawyer with the book that actively promotes separation of Sharia from Law is currently the head of the royal court, a position equal to Prime Minister in other countries, what more evidence does one need?

 

[Syrian Lion]

If F$A terrorists and their AQ allies cared about Syrian heritage they would have stayed away from those places... those terrorists will be pursued wherever they are. those coward terrorists even hide in cities to use humans as shields...

the only terrorists regimes is the puppets Saudi "Arabia" that caused the death and destruction of Syria

 

[RazPaK]

View attachment 112231

Where are our Jewish cousins? The Indians? Mate, you must have the highest bounty among the Indian users on PDF. They hate your guts it seems.

I'm sick of all this hippy bro bro shit.

Lets get back to the lizard eaters and majoosi comments.



And yes I am popular among the Indians. I hope to one day work in bollywood, so that Indians will die from a troll attack and this forum can be purged from Ganga filth.