Ancient historical sites in Syria destroyed by the Al-Assad terror regime

[al-Hasani]

The clergy and the monarchy are NOT connected, a faction of the monarchy is connected to the clergy true, but not the entire monarchy, the previous faction were the biggest allies of the clergy, and with the death of their two members who were in line to the throne they have been effectively decapitated, their sons kicked from offices and their presence degraded from the most powerful faction to the least powerful of the three major ones. Unless you are close to the monarchy you won't even know of such a thing existing but I was born in a family with close ties to the monarchy and hence my broader understanding.

The current faction alliance established to offset the previous one, led separately by Talal from one hand and Abdullah from the other emerged victorious over the previous faction which was closely allied with the clergy, the clergy is currently in a one way train to oblivion inside of Saudi Arabia, and ISIS is extremely popular with the clerical organization in Saudi Arabia due it being a breath of fresh air from what the currently deem oppression from the monarchy, and the RSAF bombing them is more of a message to the clerical establishment that their time has come to an end, and if they seek to be removed by force, then they are welcome to try. In short, currently the Liberals are in control of Saudi Arabia, Al-Tuwaijri the lawyer with the book that actively promotes separation of Sharia from Law is currently the head of the royal court, a position equal to Prime Minister in other countries, what more evidence does one need?

Mosab, I was talking from the perspective of wanting more direct participation in KSA. There is yet still little that tells me that the monarchy wants to abandon its absolute power. As long as the current economic realities exist an the clergy they will never reform. In order for real progress to arrive (IMO) we need a less powerful monarchial system. That's what I mean with the need to say y to after you have said x.

I know about that and my family also happens to know some of the inner circles etc. I believe that you are referring to Sultan and Nayef and their branches of the family.

Talal was even banished from the country if I am not wrong. I always liked him. We always complained about what had happened with him. Thankfully he is back again although limited in his political role. I don't know about the connection between the clergy and ISIS. Yes, there are some clerics who have voiced somewhat remarkable views (previously before hell broke lose) and I would not trust those but at the same time the clergy knows that they are in a weaker position than ever due to the changes King Abdullah has initiated. Talk about good changes. I agree about Al-Tuwaijri. It was always clear that such changes will come after 2005 if you ask me.

So can I ask how you see the monarchy in the future? I mean I know why you might equal those being against the monarchy which the radicals who often share that same position but my position is not necessary that of the removal of House of Saud but more something along a constitutional monarchy but that is a long way away still, IMO. Also it's maybe not the right topic to discuss given the huge popularity of King Abdullah.

Oh, and now that we talk about changes then I also believe that taxes should be introduced. Initially at a low rate. The reason why there are no taxes is only bound in the enormous natural riches. It is a rather unthinkable thing in the remaining world (even those states that can afford benefits etc. in the same way that we can) not to pay taxes.

Also I believe that corruption is still a root of many problems but that is a different discussion altogether.

Come and join us @Full Moon

Anyway it was nice talking with you as usual. I have to go though. Take care.

 

[Mosamania]

Mosab, I was talking from the perspective of wanting more direct participation in KSA. There is yet still little that tells me that the monarchy wants to abandon its absolute power. As long as the current economic realities exist an the clergy they will never reform. In order for real progress to arrive (IMO) we need a less powerful monarchial system. That's what I mean with the need to say y to after you have said x.

I know about that and my family also happens to know some of the inner circles etc. I believe that you are referring to Sultan and Nayef and their branches of the family.

Talal was even banished from the country if I am not wrong. I always liked him. We always complained about what had happened with him. Thankfully he is back again although limited in his political role. I don't know about the connection between the clergy and ISIS. Yes, there are some clerics who have voiced somewhat remarkable views (previously before hell broke lose) and I would not trust those but at the same time the clergy knows that they are in a weaker position than ever due to the changes King Abdullah has initiated. Talk about good changes. I agree about Al-Tuwaijri. It was always clear that such changes will come after 2005 if you ask me.

So can I ask how you see the monarchy in the future? I mean I know why you might equal those being against the monarchy which the radicals who often share that same position but my position is not necessary that of the removal of House of Saud but more something along a constitutional monarchy but that is a long way away still, IMO. Also it's maybe not the right topic to discuss given the huge popularity of King Abdullah.

Oh, and now that we talk about changes then I also believe that taxes should be introduced. Initially at a low rate. The reason why there are no taxes is only bound in the enormous natural riches. It is a rather unthinkable thing in the remaining world (even those states that can afford benefits etc. in the same way that we can) not to pay taxes.

Also I believe that corruption is still a root of many problems but that is a different discussion altogether.

Come and join us @Full Moon

Anyway it was nice talking with you as usual. I have to go though. Take care.

I would give 10 to 20 years before I am comfortable that the clergy won't hijack the political system, for now though I am a staunch Royalist, and put my backing 100% behind Abdullah and Talal in their endeavours. Corruption etc, for me is not the biggest issue in the country as much as the clerical establishment is.

 

[al-Hasani]

I would give 10 to 20 years before I am comfortable that the clergy won't hijack the political system, for now though I am a staunch Royalist, and put my backing 100% behind Abdullah and Talal in their endeavours. Corruption etc, for me is not the biggest issue in the country as much as the clerical establishment is.

Well, I think that there should be some kind of quota system where we get clerics from all over KSA and all sects. Shafi'i, Hanbali, Maliki, Hanafi, Twelver, Zaydi, Ismaili and from all corners of KSA. All of them are NATIVE sects to our country and we have citizens from all those sects. Well, nothing tells us that the clergy will have more political power in the future than it has now. Everything tells us that they will get less.

All I was saying initially is that the entire political system needs reforms and this will have an impact on both the monarchy and clergy. At least it should.

KSA is indeed not that corrupt a country compared to most others out there but it is still a major problem.

In 2013 KSA ranked number 63 out of 177 countries measured according to the Corruption Index.

Corruption Perceptions Index 2013 - Results

I would not call myself a staunch royalist but I am a fan of King Abdullah and like what I have seen since 2005. A lot actually on many fronts. It all depends on the ruler, his cabinet and the people that gets appointed in the most important decision making sectors.

It's funny thinking about all those political scenarios people have predicted about KSA since the very early 1930's. From a Ba'ath military coup to a takeover of the ultraconservatives. Yet I can't help wonder how KSA would have looked liked had it been a Hijazi dynasty (no names mentioned, LOL) that eventually conquered most of what is KSA today and united it instead of the House of Saud. Without saying too much then I think that it would have looked very differently. Don't you think?

P.S: Denmark is the least corrupt country on earth according to that list. I can confirm that to be the case from my experience! You will not get away with any bribes or preferential treatment in this country, that's for sure!

Also I was thinking about making a thread on the Arab Section of the forum dealing with the possibility of uniting the Arabian Peninsula + Jordan into 1 single country. I hope to kickstart a interesting debate about that sometime next week!

 

[VCheng]

The disdain has always been there from large sectors of the country (especially provinces outside of Najd) I believe but people could not really do much and just accepted it as it evolved into a more powerful part of the society (like it ever was not powerful to begin with) but you get my point here hopefully.

What you propose, Mosab, is a complete separation of state and religion. For that to happen a lot of things must change on certain fronts (you know what they are) and also the way we look at our own state.

I see it this way. The clergy and the monarchy are connected. If you want to limit the power of one of them I believe that the other should get their powers limited too. This takes me to another topic which is the need for much more direct participation of our people. I do agree that absolute rule is not the way forward. It works in China because they are a huge, huge country with 1.2 billion people. Imagine democracy there for a second? That's why you only have 2 political parties in the US and the system they have which is vastly different from the ones you see in Europe.

I am as baffled by those clerics as you are and many of their decisions. I believe in reforms too. But I also believe that we must be realistic and take one step at a time. Things are moving in a right direction.

I actually think that the first step in that direction was when women got the right for public education. Even the ultraconservatives who opposed it turned around in an instance and wanted more of their daughters to be taught at public schools.

But I agree. If KSA wants to become a fully industrialized nation we must separate religious teachings and science. There is no other solution. If you notice this was also the case during the Caliphates when the clergy was one body and the scientists/philosophers/thinkers/artists etc. another.

The world has changed dramatically in the last 100 years. The ultraconservatives that in many ways live in an Utopian imagination should understand that.

I do not have any worries about our people as such. We have one of the youngest populations out there, we are the biggest users of social media such as Facebook, Twitter, we have the highest number of students abroad of ANY Muslim nation by far and we are in many ways already a modern country de facto despite having some idiotic laws.

What pisses me off is that those changes should have been made earlier. We don't even need to look that far. We can look at our neighbors and their systems. Look at UAE. Kuwait etc.

As long as these changes you describe actually happen, there is no rush. Taking the time to do it right and step by step will be more important than the speed.